Anyone into home HIFI - Where to start

[Anygreg]

IME, Bi-Amping and Bi-Wiring is a waste of time, just put the money into a single better Integrated or Pre-Power.
Bi-Wiring is a marketing con.

As mentioned, Arcam is pretty good bet for Home Theatre/Hifi crossover systems.

Or a set of mono blocks ;)

[hoopsontoast]

Or a set of mono blocks ;)

Yup

[subseastu]

Bi-amping uses dedicated amplifier channels for each driver (generally), if your 2-way speakers can be bi-wired you would need 4 channels of power amplification.

Some integrated amps also have a pre-out where you can add additional external power amps.
2 channels in the integrated amp and a 2 channel power amp drives your 2-way bi-wire speakers.

If not then yep a pre-amp and 2 x 2 channel power amps or a single 4 channel amp.

This is assuming ‘standard’ 2-way passive x-over bi-wire speakers.

I'll have to look into this. By current set-up is a roksan kandy k3 amp bi-wire to some dali speakers but I don't think this is true bi-wire as the amp is really only 2 channel. I'm assuming another k3 would do it or have to look at a pre-amp as well

[Ethos]

Re-reading what you felt was missing (sheer volume and bass), I think you might be best off looking at the pro audio market. For me personally, that sound would be quite fatiguing after a while but this is about whatever floats your boat!

I've recently become aware of a premium AV place opened up not too far from where I work, so, as you do, I popped in for a nosey. The guy there is really helpful, asked me how he could help, and unsure really, I asked how much I needed to spend to get a HIFI system that average joe would immediately acknowledge as being 'impressive'. A bit like the first time I watched something in 4K. Somebody in the know might start talking about grey scale etc, but I just though, yeah thats a bloody good picture.

Anyway, we started at around a grand which quick rose to £2.5k. The best we demo'd was a Roksan K3 Amp and Monitor Audio silver 300, Dali's were in the mix too. Now this gear is well regarded pretty much everywhere but I was expecting more and it certainly didn't have me taken aback. The quality in the vocals etc was obvious but shear volume and bass were lacking I thought. We added a Sub which made it more appealing but I'm not sure what I'm missing.

I used to be in to car audio in my teens and £1000 would have your ears bleeding and gut wrenching bass. To get the same from HIFI do I need a PA amp and some Jamo D365 speakers?

[walkerwek1958]

Have you found it makes a noticeable difference when taking into account the cost. By bi-amping do you mean using a pre and power amp?

I use the integrated A85 to drive the high frequencies, the P85 takes a signal from the A85 pre-amp stage. The P85 drives the bass/mid. I was convinced of the advantages in a listening test many years ago using an Arcam 8R /8P set-up.

As I said, it's not just about power, it's the clarity and 'space' that seems to improve.

[chrisb]

That's the first step to take, one that's happy to listen to what you want and not what the dealer want's to sell. Go armed with some of your well recorded CD's or vinyl maybe some acoustic instrument recordings, good vocal, and some rock.
Give them a rough plan of your room, where furnishings are, wether it's carpeted or not, etc.
Right a few pointers to tell......

1) A 10 watt per channel (RMS 30hz - 20khz 8 ohms) in terms of volume level will not sound much different to a 100 watts per channel.... it will be a doubling of power or a 3db difference in sound level. Where the extra power manifests itself is in the dynamics of the sound, i.e. from the sound of a violin to the full scale orchestra playing....or from the quitest to the loudest parts (without distortion). (Power perceived is related to the speakers efficiency too)
Liken it to a car, a basic car going at 70 mph will not be as relaxing as a powerful BMW at the same speed.

...:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought that an increase of 3db was equivalent to 8x the loudness.

[Tokyo Tokei]

I’m 100% convinced that the speakers have to be a good match for the room, what works in one room possibly won’t in another. If they’re too small, or have a ‘ small’ sound, they’ll never work in a larger room. Conversely, a speaker that’s too big will never sound right in a smaller room.
...don’t believe all you read.

Sound (ahem) advice from Paul. Many will remember the "source first" dogma of the hi mags and dealers which kicked off (in the UK at least) in the 80s. Paired with cheap unstable record and tape decks, all that good amps and good speakers did was to amplify the source's problems. Spending more on a source that wasn't dismal made sense. This left less for the amps, but by the 80s these were all solid-state and much of a muchness, and speakers.

Speakers in budget thus became smaller, as drivers and cabinets are cheaper. This was fine for the average UK room, smaller than the average American room that would often be filled with large, multiple-driver spears with at least a 12" woofer. This configuration of a high quality source feeding "modest" amps and speakers kept the industry (mags and dealers) afloat for a long time. It became known as the British sound abroad, too.

Things have changed completely today, though people who were "hi fi educated" in the 80s still push the source first dogma. All music now is digitally recorded, produced and re-produced. And digital replay, unlike analogue replay (record players and tape decks) doesn't reward much investment in better quality parts. You'll get the same digital bits from a £10 CD player as from a £1000 one. Just like you'll get the same text on your monitor whether you read this post on a £25 Raspberry Pi computer or a £2000 Mac Pro. This was very much not the case back in the 80s with a cheap deck vs a well-engineered one.

The "sound" of amps is much debated, but you need enough power to drive your speakers. This is a function of room size, speaker efficiency and what your neighbours will let you get away with. As Rod says, a 10x amp power increase buys you a doubling of sound volume, all other things being equal. As does a speaker that is 3dB more efficient. Be very careful of amp power measurements. RMS vs "Peak Power with 10% distortion one channel driven" for example, may mean a 25W per channel RMS amp can also be described lazily, but legally, as a 100W amp. Guess which the marketers prefer? Wire has no sound, but it does have resistance, capacitance and inductance. As with amplifiers, only obstinately bad design can produce a wire that will audibly effect a 20-20Khz signal. So get cheap speaker cables, of sufficient cross-section to carry the current. That's pretty much anything above bell-wire.

Which leaves speakers. Still analogue (of course - otherwise you couldn't hear anything) and thus they do still repay some investment in better materials and design.

Hence I'd spend as little as you like on a source and amp, as long as sufficient to drive your chosen speakers. Which ideally should match your room, and your preferences. Take this advice and you should be working back from your speakers. The opposite of the 80s dogma! Find a speaker that matches your room and sound tastes. Then find an amp that will drive it. Then find a source. Any will do. But note that "as little as you like" doesn't necessarily mean the cheapest. If you like big meaty looking amps, with lots of knobs, and spacey looking CD players, it's fine. Won't sound any different, but there is pride of ownership.

Aside: "hi-end" hi-fi being sold purely on sound quality grounds has completely alienated the public, who can't tell the difference. Then, like you, a little disappointed, they end up buying a smart speaker, bluetooth thing or Sonos because it just works and it's about the music anyway. The forums are of course still full of "enthusiasts" (about equipment, not music) who will discuss the "grain" of an amplifier or conduct "cable shoot outs" to find the "least fatiguing" interconnect. The brain is a terrible measuring instrument for sound, because it has evolved into a highly selective receptor, and can add and subtract sounds from those present. It will also adapt to different tonal balance. These facts have made all sorts of nonsense claims accepted among the "hi fi community", and supported a lot of snake-oil companies and salesmen. Ignore them all.

Someone else recommended headphones, and I think that's not a bad idea. At least, a good pair will allow you to check how your favourite music "should" sound. Meaning, how the recording engineer, ideally in cooperation with the artist, recorded it. The bass-heavy impressive car audio sound can be a bit much in a domestic setting after the initial "wow" moment. Some of the disappointment of very good audio in a quick demo is that it may not be immediately impressive, but provides more accurate music. Which is what hi-fidelity means. Bear this in mind when listening, but ultimately your preferences are what matter.

[Anygreg]

Sound (ahem) advice from Paul. Many will remember the "source first" dogma of the hi mags and dealers which kicked off (in the UK at least) in the 80s. Paired with cheap unstable record and tape decks, all that good amps and good speakers did was to amplify the source's problems. Spending more on a source that wasn't dismal made sense. This left less for the amps, but by the 80s these were all solid-state and much of a muchness, and speakers.

Speakers in budget thus became smaller, as drivers and cabinets are cheaper. This was fine for the average UK room, smaller than the average American room that would often be filled with large, multiple-driver spears with at least a 12" woofer. This configuration of a high quality source feeding "modest" amps and speakers kept the industry (mags and dealers) afloat for a long time. It became known as the British sound abroad, too.

Things have changed completely today, though people who were "hi fi educated" in the 80s still push the source first dogma. All music now is digitally recorded, produced and re-produced. And digital replay, unlike analogue replay (record players and tape decks) doesn't reward much investment in better quality parts. You'll get the same digital bits from a £10 CD player as from a £1000 one. Just like you'll get the same text on your monitor whether you read this post on a £25 Raspberry Pi computer or a £2000 Mac Pro. This was very much not the case back in the 80s with a cheap deck vs a well-engineered one.

The "sound" of amps is much debated, but you need enough power to drive your speakers. This is a function of room size, speaker efficiency and what your neighbours will let you get away with. As Rod says, a 10x amp power increase buys you a doubling of sound volume, all other things being equal. As does a speaker that is 3dB more efficient. Be very careful of amp power measurements. RMS vs "Peak Power with 10% distortion one channel driven" for example, may mean a 25W per channel RMS amp can also be described lazily, but legally, as a 100W amp. Guess which the marketers prefer? Wire has no sound, but it does have resistance, capacitance and inductance. As with amplifiers, only obstinately bad design can produce a wire that will audibly effect a 20-20Khz signal. So get cheap speaker cables, of sufficient cross-section to carry the current. That's pretty much anything above bell-wire.

Which leaves speakers. Still analogue (of course - otherwise you couldn't hear anything) and thus they do still repay some investment in better materials and design.

Hence I'd spend as little as you like on a source and amp, as long as sufficient to drive your chosen speakers. Which ideally should match your room, and your preferences. Take this advice and you should be working back from your speakers. The opposite of the 80s dogma! Find a speaker that matches your room and sound tastes. Then find an amp that will drive it. Then find a source. Any will do. But note that "as little as you like" doesn't necessarily mean the cheapest. If you like big meaty looking amps, with lots of knobs, and spacey looking CD players, it's fine. Won't sound any different, but there is pride of ownership.

Aside: "hi-end" hi-fi being sold purely on sound quality grounds has completely alienated the public, who can't tell the difference. Then, like you, a little disappointed, they end up buying a smart speaker, bluetooth thing or Sonos because it just works and it's about the music anyway. The forums are of course still full of "enthusiasts" (about equipment, not music) who will discuss the "grain" of an amplifier or conduct "cable shoot outs" to find the "least fatiguing" interconnect. The brain is a terrible measuring instrument for sound, because it has evolved into a highly selective receptor, and can add and subtract sounds from those present. It will also adapt to different tonal balance. These facts have made all sorts of nonsense claims accepted among the "hi fi community", and supported a lot of snake-oil companies and salesmen. Ignore them all.

Someone else recommended headphones, and I think that's not a bad idea. At least, a good pair will allow you to check how your favourite music "should" sound. Meaning, how the recording engineer, ideally in cooperation with the artist, recorded it. The bass-heavy impressive car audio sound can be a bit much in a domestic setting after the initial "wow" moment. Some of the disappointment of very good audio in a quick demo is that it may not be immediately impressive, but provides more accurate music. Which is what hi-fidelity means. Bear this in mind when listening, but ultimately your preferences are what matter.

A very well put together reply, definitely hit home for me growing up in the 70’s seeing the changes that came about through the decades. I’m a member on quite a few audio forums and the threads and posts I see generally without fail spiral off into some sort of pissing contest about nothing related to the original post. And this is true with most enthusiast hobbies, watches are exactly the same. Does a Rolex tell the time any better than a £10 quartz Casio? Probably not, they both tell the time, but there is a lot more to it for enthusiasts than telling the time. This is most definitely the case for audiophiles. Like magpies attracted to shiny things, we all love it whether it be watches, Hifi, cars, or whatever. The key is, if you can afford it, have the time, an understanding misses, then why not. Just be prepared for all the shit (and joy) that comes along with it.

Final point and word of warning, having attended many audio shows, usually as an invited guest, to say the audiophile fraternity is a little quirky is an understatement, with most looking like they are homeless clutching carrier bags full of god knows what, but by jeebers they spend their money! Mostly on pointless shit.

[Cynar]

Whilst I agree the speakers will make the biggest difference to the sound, I can not agree that amps don’t make any difference.
I recently added an external power amp to my AV receiver. It was a Denon rated at 200 wpc (marketing hype I know) and I added a second hand Linn multi channel power amp rated at around 50w wpc.
The difference in the sound was not subtle. Everything became clearer like I’d been listening through a blanket before. There were details in the sound that I simply couldn’t hear before. I was so surprised that I actually swapped back to the internal amps to confirm the differences. I even asked my wife (who isn’t the slightest bit interested in HiFi) to take a listen and she immediately noticed the same differences in a blind test.

[Slamdoor]

If Tokyo Tokai is suggesting all CD players sound the same they do not. The built in Dacs vary sound quality significantly.

[Captain Morgan]

I'll have to look into this. By current set-up is a roksan kandy k3 amp bi-wire to some dali speakers but I don't think this is true bi-wire as the amp is really only 2 channel. I'm assuming another k3 would do it or have to look at a pre-amp as well

Best you check with a roksan dealer, there website indicates that current k3 integrated amps have a pre-out and the sell a k3 power amp so I expect the chances are high.

[doctorj]

Buy any old crap and add a REL sub. Preferably two REL subs.

[ALindsay]

If Tokyo Tokai is suggesting all CD players sound the same they do not. The built in Dacs vary sound quality significantly.

How very true - early CD players were over hyped by the industry when infact they were mainly terrible sonically.

[subseastu]

Best you check with a roksan dealer, there website indicates that current k3 integrated amps have a pre-out and the sell a k3 power amp so I expect the chances are high.

I just realised I've made a typo (a couple of times!) and I have a K2 amp! Really should pay more attention to what I type. Still its a very capable amp, though I must admit I've been toying with upgrading to the Caspian M2 amp

[Captain Morgan]

I just realised I've made a typo (a couple of times!) and I have a K2 amp! Really should pay more attention to what I type. Still its a very capable amp, though I must admit I've been toying with upgrading to the Caspian M2 amp

This http://www.roksan.co.uk/wp-content/u...-manual-a4.pdf says the k2 has a pre-out too, I’d look for a dealer who could demo a k3 power amp with your k2 and a m2 to compare bi-amp to new integrated

[walkerwek1958]

If Tokyo Tokai is suggesting all CD players sound the same they do not. The built in Dacs vary sound quality significantly.

+1, CD players vary hugely in sound quality and that's mainly due to the quality of the DAC. Whether they're still improving is open to debate, I suspect not.

[Jardine32]

When I was really into audio I always found the most frustrating part was the never ending desire to keep tweaking the system. That's probably the main reason why I went for a much more minimalist approach with my current set up. At least with watches we just slap one on a wrist and job done.
J

[subseastu]

This http://www.roksan.co.uk/wp-content/u...-manual-a4.pdf says the k2 has a pre-out too, I’d look for a dealer who could demo a k3 power amp with your k2 and a m2 to compare bi-amp to new integrated

Sound idea.

[walkerwek1958]

When I was really into audio I always found the most frustrating part was the never ending desire to keep tweaking the system. That's probably the main reason why I went for a much more minimalist approach with my current set up. At least with watches we just slap one on a wrist and job done.
J

Over the years I’ve tended to upgrade a system, get really into the ‘ hi fi’ thing rather than the music for a short while, then draw a line under the upgrade and leave well alone for several years. Toe in the water rather than taking the plunge.

[hogthrob]

+1, CD players vary hugely in sound quality and that's mainly due to the quality of the DAC. Whether they're still improving is open to debate, I suspect not.

Bearing in mind this is a complete new system, I think Tokyo Tokei had the right idea. Would it be foolish to try and say you should spend x% on player, y% on amp and z% on speakers?

Also, I don't think the OP said what sort of music he likes? That will surely have some bearing on what he should buy?

[walkerwek1958]

Yes, the type of music is very relevent! Also important to choose test records carefully when listening to systems.

[anz3001]

Thanks for the posts all. Some hit home.

I understand the points about room, interconnects and source but all of these were far higher spec in the demo room, and yet I wasnt 'getting it'

I don't think the demo'd components suit what I'm used to so the decision is a PA system in the living room or re-train my ears.

[walkerwek1958]

Suggest yoy try listening to a few things and consider re- training your ears.

Currently listening to some classic 70s Philadealphia Soul on vinyl at the moment, volume’s cranked up, system’s doing exactly what it should and I’m enjoying it...........it’s enough to make my trousers flare and my hair grow long again

Paul