Omega are only doing what Rolex/Patek/JLC etc do. I don't see how that's penny pinching, it's brand reinforcement.Originally Posted by TimeOut
There are HUGE amounts of parts for the standard 2824, 2892, 7750 available. These movements have been made for Swatch by other makers as well and I guess they will be able to produce parts if the need arises. The market for these parts will remain large for many years to come. That is a logical consequence of the large number of these movements that have been produced in the last decennia.
I agree it's brand reinforcement, I also think it's the right move for Omega/Swatch as I said further down the thread.
Speaking as watch enthusiast my feelings are that Rolex, JLC (perhaps not JLC so much) and Patek have always done things properly and stayed true to their original operational and manufacturing model, as Omega once did themselves. Omega have faffed around, farmed out manufacture, effectively penny pinching and now are trying to rein it in again and be a big shot.
Just my personal choice but I'd rather not line the pockets of Swatch so will not be buying any more from them, not that they will ever know or even care if they did.
So nothing is allowed to change, ever? I can't agree that that's a good business model to follow.
Well of course things are allowed to change.
Rolex have been an unchangable unity, only progressing and making advances. I feel like I'm getting more value with them, that's all I'm saying.
I see it as Omega getting back into their rightful market position - it's all perception isn't it!
I don't have anything to contribute to the discussion. I just want to thank you guys for having it. Really interesting thread with intelligent well articulated points.
Isn't it just, if they can go back to how they were when they did this...
I'll be pleased too :)
I think some are being harsh on Omega and also confusing the general history of Swatch.
My history is rusty but ETA's job, such as it was as part of ASUAG, was to provide the Swiss watch industry with Ebauches. Omega/Tissot as part of SSIH were completely distinct.
When they both blew up thanks to the quartz crisis, Hayek butchered/saved/frankensteined the corpse of ASUAG into SSIH creating what became Swatch group, hence Longines and Omega both using the same movement's when they'd previously both been distinct. Fast forward thirty yeats and Hayeks plan before he died was for stronger distinct brand identities within Swatch group, and his ending supply of ETA ebauches was part of his plan of forcing non-Swatch manufacturers into doing the same.
But ETA was always intended to be an ebauche manufacturer for the benefit of the whole (Swiss) industry, which is why it was such a huge issue and why Swatch group limiting ebauche parts is a different issue to Omega limiting parts. One is Omega's business, the other affects the whole industry it was created to support.
The wiki's on SSIH & ASUAG are basic but give an idea as to how huge a mess the whole collapse was:
http://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=ASUAG
There's a good unauthorised biography on Nicolas Hayek which deals with the origins of Swatch group that's also a good read should anyone be interested.
Very interesting thanks.
Here is a back page advert from a 1950s watchmakers book I have on my bookshelf. Am I right in thinking Ebauches SA were the big shot movement supplier back then?
Omega has no "right" to anything, especially considering the way some of its executives have behaved... And just imagine if someone said that about Rolex ;).
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
Good question. I was wondering the same thing ... ?
I have one similar, I'll post it tomorrow as an example of how ridiculous it was back then but yeah, basically.Very interesting thanks.
Here is a back page advert from a 1950s watchmakers book I have on my bookshelf. Am I right in thinking Ebauches SA were the big shot movement supplier back then?
By the 20's there was massive overcapacity in the swiss ebauche/movement manufacturers and it was damaging both the economy and the Swiss Made reputation.
So the government and several Swiss banks got involved and Ebauches SA was set up, becomming part of the larger conglomerate ASUAG. It's job was to consolidate and buy up the various small manufactures and try to instill some kind of order to the chaos of hundreds of small indie factories doing their own thing.
If you've ever seen a bestfit catalogue you might wonder at how bad things must have been beforehand if the 50's were streamlined!
So they amalgamated and reorganised loads of mvt manufactures- FHF, Venus, Valjoux, Unitas, Lemania, ETA, Peseaux and more were all bought/formed/modified so that the entire Swiss watch industry could have a go-to place for quality movements.
My memory is sketchy on dates, but because of the power it was given, the ESA group were expressly forbidden to make their own watches- the group was to help watchmakers, not compete with them (I'm sure they actually invented the Swatch, which was technjcally naughty of them but they were extremely forgiven. ;) )
Then the quartz crisis came, ASUAG died a death, finished. It was a catastrophie, staff were being paid in worthless chronographs and movements were being shovelled into skips, it was the end of the world!
Hayek was brought in do liquidise everything but instead saved the industry through ruthless mergers and cuts, sacking tens of thousands and closing factories, ending whole family lines of movements and forming from the ashes what is today the Swatch group.
So today's ETA is what Ebauches SA was supposed to be- a streamlined manufacturer of quality movements to the whole industry. Which is why the ETA thing is such a big deal. It's not just that so many depend on ETA for the same few movements, it's that being depended upon for movements is the reason ETA was supposed to exist in the first place.
It's all really facinating stuff.
Last edited by glazba; 22nd October 2015 at 07:09.
Absolutely fantastic post Glazba, thank you for giving us the full picture.
I'd give anything to have been around then, hoovering up all the unwanted movements!
Last edited by TimeOut; 22nd October 2015 at 06:24.
wow thanks for that very interesting would like to know more actually!!
That's a good point. And it certainly leaves a nasty taste in the mouth when I say the word "SwatchCo".
I read, somewhere on the internet so it may not be true, that ETAs were still being sold, and would still be sold, to companies whose movement divisions had a knife to their throat way back when, and were forced to carve them out and sell them to what was basically the state government watch movement manufacturer (Glycine for example.) This is why some are still fitted with ETAs rather than the alternative Sellita. However I am sure they will be cut off if Swatch so desires!
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
So on that basis a guy like me hasn`t a hope in hell of being able to service a watch properly..........strange when you consider I`ve serviced around 180 watches and only had 3 returned with problems (all auto-winding, never yet had a watch stop or a train-wheel problem).
I work in my spare room using basic watchmaker's tools. I don`t own a cleaning machine, I use a system of small jars and an ultrasonic bath. However, a background as an Industrial Chemistry (analyst initially) means I`m well-placed to work to meticulous standards and avoid cross-contamination etc. I have a parts drier constructed from a 60 watt filament bulb, but it does the job. When I clean parts, they are cleaned thoroughly; it takes me longer but time isn`t an issue for me, if I work on 1 or 2 watches/week I`m happy. None of this is rocket science, it's all about degreasing small items using the right solvents and leaving no traces of residues behind......easy!
But how can I possibly be competent, Rob?..........your simplistic logic amazes me! Like many on here, you probably know very little about the actual process of watch repairing and what's involved. I realised how little I knew when I got into it; unless folks spend time in a watch repair workshop/environment they can't grasp it, I certainly couldn`t.
It doesn`t matter how good the tools/facilities are, that's no guarantee of a good job. It's more about the skills and attitude of the monkey doing the work in my view. This applies to all things, not only watches. In my job I had to work in some fairly ropey labs at times, but it didn`t compromise the quality of the work.
Given the situation with parts it's likely that I`ll limit my activities to maintaining watches in my own collection in the future, particularly if ETA parts dry up too. Alternatively, I could stick to Zeniths and TAGs, LVMH are happy to continue supplying me with parts (albeit at premium prices) but that isn`t what I enjoy doing. Likelihood is I`ll spend my time doing other things instead, but I prefer that to be MY decision not Swatch Group's.
The going rate for getting watches serviced will increase sharply; the small repairers will either die off (literally!) or stop working.
Standards of work will actually fall in some cases. Here's an example:
I`ve just been handed a 70s Omega (cal 752) that's a family heirloom, having been in a drawer for years. The watch is perfectly restorable but it's led a hard life. It needs the usual parts replacing (rotor bush, reverser, spring barrel, mainspring) to get it running well. Whilst not cheap these parts were available till now. I`ve attempted to buy the spring barrel and been unable to get one (other than from Cousins at their silly prices), but fortunately I have several in stock so I`ll use one of those. This watch will leave me in excellent condition and running properly, with the parts I`ve detailed being fitted. However, it would be possible to get the watch running, albeit not well, by replacing nothing! The owner would be no wiser but he'd be getting a watch that really wasn`t running as it should and it would probably give trouble in the near future. The old spring and barrel could be re-used despite being worn, the rotor could be sprained to prevent it contacting the movement (due to wear) then a thicker gasket fitted to prevent contact with the caseback.........yes, I know all the bodges..........the reverser may be OK for a while if cleaned and lubricated. The watch would give poor amplitude and probably give poor power reserve, which isn`t exactly ideal but the owner probably wouldn`t know. If new parts aren`t available there's more likelihood that poor repairs will be carried out in the way I`ve described.....surely folks can see the logic in this! If parts are available at sensible prices there's no excuse not to fit them.
Swatch Group's decision on parts supply will NOT help owners. Currently, they can use the services of an accredited repairer and pay premium commercial rates if they choose. That's fine, and it's the right decision in some cases (particularly the latest co-axials). Those who have a 50yr old heirloom may be happy to entrust it to folks like me and get it restored sympathetically at a price they're happy to pay; folks who own a 15yr old cal 1120 (ETA 2892) Omega may also be happy giving it to me (or someone similar) rather than pay what seems like an inflated price to Omega to service a very straightforward watch. It's all down to individual choice.......but some of those options will be taken away by Swatch Group because they won`t supply parts. It's like cars, I can take my Jag to the local garage or I can stick with the main agent....my choice.
At the end of the day, they're watches and no-one dies if a repair is done badly.......it isn`t like fixing cars in that respect. Once the watch is sold to the owner it isn`t owned by Omega, Longines or whoever, it's owned by YOU; they'd do well to remember this fact. People expect (and deserve) value for money and I also think they deserve the right to chose where (and by whom) they have their watch maintained.
Paul
Top-quality post; thanks for taking the time to write that. Indeed, it's extremely naïve to believe that the policy change is being done with the customers' interest in mind; as is typical of Swatch Group decisions, it's all about the money. I simply can't see how this benefits anyone except them.
I suspect Rolex supplies parts to every independent watchmaker and is happy to do so in the future. We may not like it but Swatch follows industry to drain our wallets better. I suspect they want to achieve Rolex perfection in charging premium for decent product :)
I'm surprised Swatch Group are willing to lose the income stream from selling Omega parts, which have become v. expensive over the past few years. Parts for the 60s/70s watches can be expensive and there's bound to be profit in selling them. If they assume everyone will now get their watch sorted out by an accredited repairer, they're wrong. More vintage /heirloom watches will end up in the back of drawers as keepsakes because the cost of repair/restoration will be prohibitive.
The scale I work on is small, I fit watch work around the rest of my life and activities, but I enjoy the work and I`m loathe to be forced into giving up. For others, who rely on the income, it's a more serious situation.
Maybe everyone should buy TAGs and Zeniths in future, currently they have a far more relaxed approach about supplying parts but ironically they won`t supply wholesalers!
Paul
You should write a book walterwek.
Actually, that's a potential project if I get totally pissed off with watches!
I just tell it like I see it....some will agree with me some of the time, others won't agree with me any of the time, I agree with me all of the time and I`m probably in a minority of one.
Being on the other side of the fence, I`m sure you see things differently....but how would you see things if you weren't in that position?
Paul
Re:
Maybe everyone should buy TAGs and Zeniths in future, currently they have a far more relaxed approach about supplying parts but ironically they won`t supply wholesalers!
Lol, you carry the argument to the extreme.
I disagree with you atleast 50% of the time but always respect your opinion as it is always an informed one.
LVMH have always done things differently; they're happy to supply repairers but won`t supply wholesale. They won`t supply TAG bracelets via their materials department, everyone has to buy them from a TAG dealer!....strange logic but that's how they do things.
When I approached them regarding parts, I told them how I worked and who I was, with a covering letter. That's what I mean when I say they are more 'relaxed'. That may change in the future, but that's how it is at the moment.
Paul
If that's the case, the value proposition of Rolex increases, along with every make that is prepared to supply parts.
Why buy Swatch group brand and be stuck with only sending it to an expensive repairer if for largely equivalent money you can buy another one that any reputable repairer can work on? Sure this situation will take time to realise - but it will happen to one extent or another.
A proper tools and equipment is there to help every watch guy... But that doesn't mean that it's going to be a straight forward. No matter how sophisticated Your equipment is. It is still down to the watch Guy itself. How devoted He/She is with His/Her job. This is where an independent watchmaker makes a difference because they value their reputations and always aims for high standard when it comes to servicing a customers watch... Because at the end of the day, their reputation is at risk... If I only knew an independent watch maker before, I would of sent my Omega there... Now my watch is with Omega swatch group back for the 4th time... Last time I was told that the hour hand was already centered or within Omega tolerance but when I had it and check it myself. The hour hand will only hit the center after the minute hand passes 4 minutes from the 12 hour marker...
That is not the case. That is very not the case. :D
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