Email from D.M.R. Regarding Rolex Sales

[ach5]

^ hehe

[dougair]

Simple, ask your Rolex AD for permission to sell, hopefully they may agree if you give them a full breakdown of your financial issues with names and addresses of your creditors and details of sums owed.

You may also be required to attend the AD’s showroom (by appointment) and take a *ollocking at best or a rear-ending at worst from a member of staff for your financial mismanagement.

Don’t you have to be vetted before you’re allowed to buy? Surely they should have all your financials on file??

[KavKav]

Don’t you have to be vetted before you’re allowed to buy? Surely they should have all your financials on file??

Tsk! We are talking financial issues accrued subsequent to your last Rolex retail purchase!

[Mrdemon]

People saying this will help are short sited

the dealers making the money have a flowing supply so waiting 12 months for a card plays into their hands even more ! , all this does is make the 2nd hand price go up even more which we have seem the last month as the Standard Rolex Sub is daft 2nd hand and a Batman is £9k !!!

It's a very stupid short sited way holding back the cards to make flippers even more money !! it's done the opposite of what they intended imo and made the watch's even harder to get.

the thing for me is I only see Value In a Rolex SS watch at £5k at £10k other brands are far superior.

the 2nd hand dealers will still get a flowing supply and prices will rocket on the Pepsi and SS items.

I am happy in a way as I would not buy a new Rolex at these prices and did buy a 50th ed Sub and BLNR both under £5k so AD have made me a bit of money forcing prices up lol

[PSTW]

I read the DMR thinking that I agree with the sentiment - the scalping of Rolex watches is borderline ridiculous and that it drives a grey industry similar to the resale of concert tickets is almost laughable.

The effect is the same though - normal people can’t see their favourite bands and can’t get hold of the watch they want without either paying over the odds or waiting silly time.

I don’t think DMR will change behaviour in the short to medium term. I read their note thinking it would be an unenforceable restraint of trade. On the other hand, at least they recognise the problem and want to do something, anything.

[JasonM]

Dealers check serial no.s with Rolex to see if they’re stolen. Assume they are therefore flagged/come to their attention that way

Are you sure about that? I don’t think anyone has access to ‘ze list’ unless they go for a service, which a brand new one wont.

[Kingstepper]

Let’s just say,

You buy the watch, you are fine with it, and then boom all of a sudden you have financial issues, or something and need to sell your watches.



Instagram
Wrist_Watch_Repeat

When you buy it, assume it’s something you can’t realistically sell to raise funds. Like TV, furniture and many things in your home.

[canuck]

So I popped in to my local shop that sells Rolex/ Tudor etc etc. I spoke with the sales lady for a while about the tudors in house movement and then we made our way over to the more expensive case. I asked her how watch supply was over the last few months. She told me it was getting a bit slower but generally okay. The last blnr (just under 9k Canadian list) took a week to arrive after she ordered it. So I asked about warranty cards and what the policy was. I was told if I buy the watch from her it’s generally assumed that I would take everything with the watch but if I wanted to leave it at the store should I be likely to loose things that she would be willing to keep it for me.

Perhaps Canada has a different policy?!?

I’m curious to find out how long to order something more rare but don’t want to waste her time as I have no intent in purchasing.


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[Enoch]

Don’t you have to be vetted before you’re allowed to buy? Surely they should have all your financials on file??

Funnily enough a young sales guy tried this with a chap I know, that was trying to place an order for a GT3.

He wanted him to disclose his net worth.... got told to stick it, and Brian went and bought 2 new Lambos to add to his fleet.

[MartynJC (UK)]

So I popped in to my local shop that sells Rolex/ Tudor etc etc. I spoke with the sales lady for a while about the tudors in house movement and then we made our way over to the more expensive case. I asked her how watch supply was over the last few months. She told me it was getting a bit slower but generally okay. The last blnr (just under 9k Canadian list) took a week to arrive after she ordered it. So I asked about warranty cards and what the policy was. I was told if I buy the watch from her it’s generally assumed that I would take everything with the watch but if I wanted to leave it at the store should I be likely to loose things that she would be willing to keep it for me.

Perhaps Canada has a different policy?!?

I’m curious to find out how long to order something more rare but don’t want to waste her time as I have no intent in purchasing.


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interesting, I’m heading to BC in July so will keep eyes open!

[canuck]

interesting, I’m heading to BC in July so will keep eyes open!

BC might be slightly different due to the population density and easy of travel for many wealthy Chinese.

On the east coast however, things are a bit ‘quieter’ although I do wonder how a foreigner would fare if able to purchase a desirable watch in the UK. Would they want to keep my warranty card ? I think it’s an interesting point.

[Lemaniaman]

I don’t think it’ll stop the flipping for profit. We’re nearly at a situation where a buyer will expect the warranty card to be at the AD rather than with the watch so buying an almost new watch without the card will be seen as normal.

Just one less thing for the faker to have to fake!

Spot on. Sales will be something like ‘warranty card to follow in 12 months’ and probably a small amount of cash held back until it turns up. ‘

When this becomes the norm what will Rolex do, hold the card back for 5 years or not issue them at all, either of which still do not solve the problem.

I have a solution, make more steel sports and less of the other models!

[Murdoc]

I have a solution, make more steel sports and less of the other models!

Imagine if Rolex swamped the market with SS models. Every AD had 40 or 50 of every model available in the safe for anyone who walked in willing to pay list price. No supply issues any more.

I wonder how many people would suddenly go off the idea of getting a new Daytona?

[Devonian]

Imagine if Rolex swamped the market with SS models. Every AD had 40 or 50 of every model available in the safe for anyone who walked in willing to pay list price. No supply issues any more.

I wonder how many people would suddenly go off the idea of getting a new Daytona?

There’s zero chance of Rolex doing that - killing the golden goose!

Like it or loath it, Rolex have created a brilliant business model.

[paskinner]

No-one knows the Rolex business plans; they could decide to increase production of Professional models; At present, there is probably far bigger demand for stuff like the Datejust. So they make and sell boatloads of them. A relatively small increase in supply of the professional stuff might quickly mop up the demand.
Rolexes 'brilliant 'business model is simply to sell nearly a million watches a year. Hardly 'short supply' is it! Even if all demand was met, the professional models would be at the periphery . A large group of Rolex buyers would never choose these models.

[furiousjoe]

As I understand it...

Rolex records and can trace where the serial numbers of every watch sold. (ie through which dealer) its been known that some dealers whose allocation of these hotter watches (JC, Daytona C, SD43, HULK, Batman etc) regularly turn up on the grey market have lost their franchises... and so these dealers are taking these measure to protect themselves and their business interests.

All it takes is for the warranty card to show a 160 country code and it will raise red flags.

Any examples of dealers that have lost their franchises due to watches turning up on the grey market ?

[Haywood_Milton]

Any examples of dealers that have lost their franchises due to watches turning up on the grey market ?

Yes.

[ach5]

Yes.

I understand this to be the case anecdotally, but was that the very clear reason given?

And incidentally, which AD’s? I assume this isn’t a great Rolex secret?

[robert75]

As I understand it...

Rolex records and can trace where the serial numbers of every watch sold. (ie through which dealer) its been known that some dealers whose allocation of these hotter watches (JC, Daytona C, SD43, HULK, Batman etc) regularly turn up on the grey market have lost their franchises... and so these dealers are taking these measure to protect themselves and their business interests.

All it takes is for the warranty card to show a 160 country code and it will raise red flags.

Realistically though, are Rolex more concerned about AD’s staff members using their discounts to hoover up a dozen watches to sell on the grey market, the “AD” flogging a dozen to his mate to go on the grey market or Joe Public walking in buying a watch, deciding they don’t like it and putting it up for sale?

Sorry I can’t see this as having anything to do with “Protecting themselves” other than just protecting an over inflated market.

[Haywood_Milton]

I understand this to be the case anecdotally, but was that the very clear reason given?

And incidentally, which AD’s? I assume this isn’t a great Rolex secret?

As I understand it the explicit communication with the victim is as minimal as possible, but loose lips always seem to share one or more of the reasons with surviving main agents - perhaps pour encourager les autres!

We might ask Berry's, Leonard Dews, Banks Lyon or many others for their thoughts.

Plenty of the most desirable models seen "unworn in stickers" seem to come from Oldmyths, but because of that company's arguably undeserved prominence I would not expect it to be at any risk. The source of these watches may also be a number of rogue individuals within the company. Mr. Bowtell could perhaps advise us, if he isn't too busy selling things privately online today.

In the past, the approach was much more relaxed. Two of my colleagues are former managers of main agents and in turn friends with many other ADs from Rolex events etc. They recount that in the past all sorts went on, but provided you didn't do anything too obvious Rolex seemed happy to turn a blind eye. I dare suggest that this was in the days before the internet boomed, when information was not so easily disseminated by pesky customers.

[ach5]

^ Thanks Haywood.

It was a real shame that Banks Lyon lost theirs because they were the AD I had bought several new Rolex from and had "built up a relationship" with. Plus they were a really nice independent and Bob (sales manager there) is a gent.

[JasonM]

Spot on. Sales will be something like ‘warranty card to follow in 12 months’ and probably a small amount of cash held back until it turns up. ‘

When this becomes the norm what will Rolex do, hold the card back for 5 years or not issue them at all, either of which still do not solve the problem.

I have a solution, make more steel sports and less of the other models!

This warrenty card ‘thing’ isn’t a Rolex policy, it’s a AD policy.

[Rich]

The "blame" for this situation lies with both the traders AND the buyers paying way over list price. If the buyers went away, so would the problem.

I think it also lies with the brand for artificially inflating the percieved market value by creating a supply bottleneck. I don't think that Rolex are too unhappy with the image that they have massaged around their brand...nor the price point that this has allowed them to maintain. They have created demand by restricting supply. Yes their watches are of good quality, but there are plenty of similar quality brands that have not enjoyed the same attention.

As a business in a very crowded and limited market place, how do you ensure success. You can be so high end quality (Patek) that you write your own value...you can basically ask what you like. You can be Rolex and restrict supply and so create an artificial demand and thus price. You can be Omega and keep re-inventing yourself - and ultimately end up with a huge grey market.... Or you can be one of the many others and work within the price point that will sell your product in sufficient quantities to be profitable.

Which creates the highest margin per watch?? Who knows, but as of last year, Rolex was deemed to be the most valuable luxury watch brand....So they must have done something right....Yet not far behind them is Cartier....and yet their watches are nothing like as sought after nor difficult to source and are deemed less good quality...Take from that what you will.

[UKMike]

Can I suggest that someone purchases a Rolex SS "sports" for the normal retail price, and on being told that the dealer will hold the warranty card for 12 months, suggest that they also hold the watch itself, boxed and untouched, in their safe for the the full year.

During this time the watch will steadily increase in value, making a good return for the customer without the burden of potentially damaging the piece - thus ensuring an even bigger financial return when the watch and warranty card are passed back to the owner and it can be sold on as "Brand New In Box" - WITH STICKERS!

In this way the Rolex dealers become investment brokers with virtually guaranteed financial returns and we can get away from this nonsense of having to wear timepieces - everyone is a winner.

[Haywood_Milton]

Rolex was deemed to be the most valuable luxury watch brand....So they must have done something right....Yet not far behind them is Cartier....and yet their watches are nothing like as sought after nor difficult to source and are deemed less good quality...Take from that what you will.

The top 20 best-selling watches over £5,000 in the UK :

1. A Rolex model
2. A Rolex model
3. A Rolex model
4. A Rolex model
5. A Rolex model
6. A Rolex model
7. A Rolex model
8. A Rolex model
9. A Rolex model
10. A Rolex model
11. A Rolex model
12. A Rolex model
13. A Rolex model
14. A Rolex model
15. A Cartier model. No, wait, another Rolex model
16. A Rolex model
17. A Rolex model
18. A Rolex model
19. A Rolex model
20. A Rolex model

This isn't Rolex fan-boy fantasy, it is fact.

Commercially, Cartier do not come close --- they have just one or two per-cent of the market value in this sector.

Haywood

[Rich]

The top 20 best-selling watches over £5,000 in the UK :

1. A Rolex model
2. A Rolex model
3. A Rolex model
4. A Rolex model
5. A Rolex model
6. A Rolex model
7. A Rolex model
8. A Rolex model
9. A Rolex model
10. A Rolex model
11. A Rolex model
12. A Rolex model
13. A Rolex model
14. A Rolex model
15. A Cartier model. No, wait, another Rolex model
16. A Rolex model
17. A Rolex model
18. A Rolex model
19. A Rolex model
20. A Rolex model

This isn't Rolex fan-boy fantasy, it is fact.

Commercially, Cartier do not come close --- they have just one or two per-cent of the market value in this sector.

Haywood

I don’t disagree. I wasn’t talking of actual models, just brands. Rolex has a brand status created over many years of hard branding work, as do Cartier. Cartier had originally taken the luxury dress route. Rolex was originally based on good quality tool watches in much greater production numbers than Cartier. The change for Rolex has been to throttle the availability....and by so doing, increase perceived and ultimately, market value.... they have also made their tool watches more “Dressy”. if you ask anyone who knows nothing about watches to name a brand, I would hazard a guess that Rolex would be top of that list...and if you asked the question about a “jewellery” watch, you would get Cartier.


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[Haywood_Milton]

I don’t disagree. I wasn’t talking of actual models, just brands. Rolex has a brand status created over many years of hard branding work, as do Cartier. Cartier had originally taken the luxury dress route. Rolex was originally based on good quality tool watches in much greater production numbers than Cartier. The change for Rolex has been to throttle the availability....and by so doing, increase perceived and ultimately, market value.... they have also made their tool watches more “Dressy”. if you ask anyone who knows nothing about watches to name a brand, I would hazard a guess that Rolex would be top of that list...and if you asked the question about a “jewellery” watch, you would get Cartier.


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With apologies: I'm struggling to understand the point you are making.

[Rich]

With apologies: I'm struggling to understand the point you are making.

that Rolex have inflated their value by throttling the market....

"supply and demand"....and all that...

[Nagraboy]

that Rolex have inflated their value by throttling the market....

"supply and demand"....and all that...

I don't think it's certain that Rolex have throttled supply and are solely responsible for the availability situation.

The watch industry as a whole had a couple of bad years after the Chinese market tanked and many brands reduced production to meet the new lower demand. Then in the last year or so, demand has really picked up again globally...but production has not increased to meet it due to the difficulty in changing production schedules. I think that's far more of a factor than any grand plan by Rolex to deliberately cause a major shortage of SS professional watches. Of course, it's easy to think it's Rolex's doing as all we see is the AD windows bereft of SS pieces.

[JasonM]

that Rolex have inflated their value by throttling the market....

"supply and demand"....and all that...

I don’t think they have throttled the market either, they just concentrate their output differently to what a small market (us) want.

[gbn13]

Can I suggest that someone purchases a Rolex SS "sports" for the normal retail price, and on being told that the dealer will hold the warranty card for 12 months, suggest that they also hold the watch itself, boxed and untouched, in their safe for the the full year.

During this time the watch will steadily increase in value, making a good return for the customer without the burden of potentially damaging the piece - thus ensuring an even bigger financial return when the watch and warranty card are passed back to the owner and it can be sold on as "Brand New In Box" - WITH STICKERS!

In this way the Rolex dealers become investment brokers with virtually guaranteed financial returns and we can get away from this nonsense of having to wear timepieces - everyone is a winner.

Excellent idea! A bit like storing wine in a Bonded warehouse and only removing from Bond, when you want to drink the wine. Could even sell it on to a new owner and they also leave it in the AD’s safe.

[744ER]

With apologies: I'm struggling to understand the point you are making.

Me too... Something about making 800000 mechanical watches a year yet throttling production? Clueless nonsense.

[33JS]

This warrenty card ‘thing’ isn’t a Rolex policy, it’s a AD policy.

Is it?

[744ER]

Is it?

That's Rolex UK. Not Rolex SA in Switzerland.

[Devonian]

In other news if anyone is interested, I unusually popped home at lunchtime and on the box was the high brow Posh Pawnbrokers programme.

A load of real 'ham' acting where the Pawn guy is telly the camera how to spot a real Rolex - 'if the seconds hand sweeps, it's a Rolex, if it doesn't, it might not be a Rolex' - the weight - the bracelet finish - he had a damn good feel of the green box to check that was legitimate!

He then offered £2,800 for a Polar Explorer when the seller wanted £3,500. They then 'hammed' their way to a compromise at 3k.

All in all a load of loblocks and 4 minutes of my life I won't get back!!!






Carry on

[MST]

Is it?

In the same sentence Rolex UK state that they do not dictate to ADs but do encourage them, how euphemistically eloquent of them!

[Rich]

Me too... Something about making 800000 mechanical watches a year yet throttling production? Clueless nonsense.

Perhaps it might be more understandable to you if I said that production has not kept up with demand - as it clearly hasn't. In the wake of Chinese sudden decline in interest (mostly due to the crack down on bribery in China - as watches seemed to be the prime vehicle for this) Rolex amongst others had to revise their production output downwards so as not to devalue (read "flood" the market with unsold watches) their brand. This is fact. Subsequent to this the market has recovered somewhat, but Rolex has not increased its output to keep up with demand. Rolex watches new and used have increased substantially in sale price over the last few years. The upside for Rolex is that their profit margin per new watch has increased along which the impact on used and new desirability. It's a self perpetuating cycle. As some have said..."why kill the golden goose"....

Call it what you will - throttling or the inability to keep up with market demand for some time now - The latter suggesting poor management which I somewhat doubt - The happy upside is that the Rolex bottom line is positively affected - which, after all, is what Rolex shareholders want. Whether that business plan long term will ultimately end up alienating the purchaser and reduce the demand only history will show.

[Haywood_Milton]

Perhaps it might be more understandable to you [surprisingly patronising, since a number of people are clearly struggling with these waffly claims. hm] if I said that production has not kept up with demand - as it clearly hasn't. In the wake of Chinese sudden decline in interest (mostly due to the crack down on bribery in China - as watches seemed to be the prime vehicle for this) Rolex amongst others had to revise their production output downwards so as not to devalue (read "flood" the market with unsold watches) their brand. This is fact* Subsequent to this the market has recovered somewhat, but Rolex has not increased its output to keep up with demand. Rolex watches new and used have increased substantially in sale price over the last few years. The upside for Rolex is that their profit margin per new watch has increased [Has it? hm] along which the impact on used and new desirability. It's a self perpetuating cycle. As some have said..."why kill the golden goose"....

Call it what you will - throttling or the inability to keep up with market demand - The result is that the Rolex bottom line is positively affected - which, after all, is what their shareholders [Are you aware of the company structure? hm]want. Whether that business plan long term will ultimately end up alienating the purchaser and reduce the demand only history will show [I'm happy to have a bet if you are. hm].

* Citation, please.

[Nagraboy]

Rolex new prices have only been increased once in the UK over the last 6 years, and that was due to foreign exchange variance. Pre-owned is another matter, buy neither of these has given Rolex a big increase in their margin.

[Devonian]

Rolex new prices have only been increased once in the UK over the last 6 years, and that was due to foreign exchange variance. Pre-owned is another matter, buy neither of these has given Rolex a big increase in their margin.

Without putting Haywood on the spot . . . . . Err Haywood, what's your current thoughts on a price increase now? The pound seems to be getting stronger, especially against the dollar, so whilst we might still be a good place to buy (getting the VAT back if you're a tourist), presumably it's not as cheap as was?

[Nagraboy]

Without putting Haywood on the spot . . . . . Err Haywood, what's your current thoughts on a price increase now? The pound seems to be getting stronger, especially against the dollar, so whilst we might still be a good place to buy (getting the VAT back if you're a tourist), presumably it's not as cheap as was?

Not long ago, Haywood and others said there would likely be another increase before the Summer.

[Devonian]

Not long ago, Haywood and others said there would likely be another increase before the Summer.

That's why I said 'current' as the pound is gaining.

[Haywood_Milton]

Without putting Haywood on the spot . . . . . Err Haywood, what's your current thoughts on a price increase now? The pound seems to be getting stronger, especially against the dollar, so whilst we might still be a good place to buy (getting the VAT back if you're a tourist), presumably it's not as cheap as was?

Not wishing to cause a riot such as the "epidemic of superfakes" post caused, I have since 2012 argued that there were no pressing reasons for a further price increase. The only exception was my single reversal, expecting a rise August 2016 following the Brexit vote, which proved to be only three months out (leading those who like to get excited to say it was all just guesswork, before visiting Rolex price threads six times a day to post "I'm fed up reading Rolex price threads.")

Some months ago I said that I could see a price rise only later in 2018 if at all......but recent strengthening of the pound makes that seem less logical.

Watch the currencies.

H

[33JS]

That's Rolex UK. Not Rolex SA in Switzerland.

So what? It's on Rolex letterheaded paper and no way would that have been issued without Rolex SA knowing.

[Belligero]

that Rolex have inflated their value by throttling the market....

"supply and demand"....and all that...

That's completely false.

There's a limit to how many watches they can make, and Rolex's manufacturing capacity has in fact been maxed out for some time; in 2017, they passed the one-million mark for units produced.

That demand still exceeds supply can hardly be blamed on Rolex, unless making watches that people actually want to buy is considered to be a fault. Do you really think they'd deliberately snub willing customers by turning down their money?

[JasonM]

So what? It's on Rolex letterheaded paper and no way would that have been issued without Rolex SA knowing.

But its not a Rolex policy, its a recommendation that a AD can follow or not, therefore its a AD policy, as they say in that letter, Rolex do not dictate how watches should be sold.

[33JS]

But its not a Rolex policy, its a recommendation that a AD can follow or not, therefore its a AD policy, as they say in that letter, Rolex do not dictate how watches should be sold.

I think MST's post #236 covers that issue. Sometimes intelligent people can read the message between the lines...

[mtagrant]

That's completely false.

There's a limit to how many watches they can make, and Rolex's manufacturing capacity has in fact been maxed out for some time; in 2017, they passed the one-million mark for units produced.

That demand still exceeds supply can hardly be blamed on Rolex, unless making watches that people actually want to buy is considered to be a fault. Do you really think they'd deliberately snub willing customers by turning down their money?

I think they are doing that on sports models. They could, if they wanted to, increase production on sports model and indeed the SS Skydweller that was launched over a year ago, but haven’t and that, in m opinion, is affecting the used market. There are still plenty of datejusts sitting in AD windows that don’t appear to be in short supply

- - - Updated - - -

I think they are doing that on sports models. They could, if they wanted to, increase production on sports model and indeed the SS Skydweller that was launched over a year ago, but haven’t and that, in my opinion, is affecting the used market. There are still plenty of datejusts sitting in AD windows that don’t appear to be in short supply

[JasonM]

I think MST's post #236 covers that issue. Sometimes intelligent people can read the message between the lines...

Why wouldn’t Rolex state equivocaly it as a policy then? Why be ambiguous? Sorry if I’m not intelligent enough to understand, perhaps the ADs who don’t adopt the practice are a bit dim too.

[FK77]

Why wouldn’t Rolex state equivocaly it as a policy then? Why be ambiguous? Sorry if I’m not intelligent enough to understand, perhaps the ADs who don’t adopt the practice are a bit dim too.

I also don't think it is a Rolex "policy" but more of a recommendation, literally as the letter states. Either that or different rules for different ADs. I bought a Sub after this letter's date, got warranty card and all the stickers were also left on the watch. I am on the list for the new GMT at the same AD and no mention of such a policy. That's not to say they won't do it when the watch actually arrives but this particular topic didn't come up when I was discussing the process and ETA with them only last week.