One watch that I regret moving on is my Grand Seiko quartz SBGT019.
It's an older 90's model that had a lot going for it:
1. The dial treatment. SBGT019 has an intricately textured dial
2. The hour markers are very complex, each one has multiple facets that catch the light and provide a wonderful "sparkle".
3. The minute markers on the SBGT019 are applied metal (and multi-faceted) rather than printed or painted onto the dial
By contrast, many of the modern GS quartz have simpler dials, less faceted hour markers and printed minute markers.
Does this indicate cost cutting and a decline in quality? I've only seen a couple of GS in the metal so my experience is limited.
Anyone care to weigh in? Thanks, chaps!
Probably more to do with increased volume production with the limited number of hands available for assembly, although cost saving to keep the price as it is could be another explanation.
As sales haven't declined as a result, then the design change/cost saving could be deemed acceptable.
Last edited by PJ S; 18th July 2015 at 14:22.
Admittedly this is the only Grand Seiko I've owned but for me the quality is outstanding.
Hmm, thinking about some of the sunburst dials on the newer models, maybe I was being a bit harsh.
I guess having some print on the dial doesn't necessarily equate to lower quality...
Yes, your SBGT019 was the older case shape. New models were introduced in the late 2000's and the quality was reduced. As an example, this is the SBGT021 from the same series:
This was superseded by the current SBGT037:
The main changes (apart from the case shape) are that the applied metal minute markers are now printed and the very complex bracelet is now simpler. The crown is also non screw down as opposed to the previous screw down ones. The older models also had a capped seconds hand as opposed to the visible centre pinion. The hour and minute hands & markers are now slightly brushed on the top flat surfaces as opposed to being more polished. This feature however was not a reduction in quality but was done to maximise legibility.
You can make the same comparisons with the SBGT015 vs SBGT035. The SBGT019 wasn't replaced, there is no current day/date model on leather.
The overall reduction in quality is reflected in the prices. The list price of the old model was 325,000 yen. The current one is 262,500.
It was suggested at the time that this was done to make GS models more affordable and available to a wider market, particularly given that they were just beginning to expand into international markets. The quality is still extremely good for the price.
Last edited by GlennO; 19th July 2015 at 02:33.
Don't think on l've ever seen a watch with applied minute markers!!
Does this apply to the mechanicals or just the Quartz series as I guess Omega did something similar with the Aqua Terra Quartz range to differentiate them from the (cheaper) Quartz models.
Originally Posted by DB9yeti
There's definitely a difference in the Omega dials, the later quartz model is awful especially in white, it looks really cheap and nasty.
GS is available at many different price levels and levels of finish. The ones with a less elaborate finish cost less than the ones that are more elaborate. Does this indicate "cost cutting". Umm, yes, but isn't that obvious? Does it indicate a "decline in quality"? It kind of depends how you define quality.
How would you for example rate the "quality" of a watch that comes out of the factory with it's indices poorly aligned?
My Chronomaster has applied metal minute markers.
Some of the early GS mechanicals were extremely high quality with very complex multi-faceted bezels and bracelets (which were fully screwed through) and finishing.
The mechanical movements are better now though, whereas it's the same quartz calibre. It's not similar to what Omega did. Omega didn't reduce the price of the quartz AT when they downgraded it since they want buyers to view the auto as better value. GS reduced the price of the base auto's & quartz to appeal to a wider market.
Ah OK, so this only applies to their base models - makes sense as an entry level point.
I think it's time for a WTB for a Spring Drive Snowflake; as this seems to be the flagship model I assume I'm getting all of the oft-talked about qualilty?
Thanks GlennO, very helpful observations. Unfortunately for me it's a case of 'don't know what you've got till it's gone.'
Do you know whether any of the current models have applied minute markers?
Also, what is the model of your Citizen chronomaster, it looks lovely?
Ballsy move, as the reduction in quality was noticeable without even looking closely at it. However, I can see leaving the quartz overpriced is a good strategy for eventually finding an excuse to bin it. It would be very difficult to push the price of an Aqua Terrace above the DateJust if there was still a quartz in the range.
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
The snowflake has a lot going for it but the minute markers are printed and the bracelet has pins and collars not screws. Lovely dial though.
After years of reading the exceptional quality of GS i finally take the plunge on a entry level quartz, i am currently patiently waiting while it is stuck at customs and this thread appears
Now I'm fed up lol,
On a serious note when you look at the price it still represents very good value, i will be in a much better position to comment if it ever gets here :)
How did you buy? I tried to get Seiya to send me a Snowflake and he said he wasn't allowed. Naturally it's only the filthy Swiss who have restrictive practices ;)
Fire a mail to Higuchi he is very helpful, his prices are very good too
Yeah I had an SBGT019 myself, lovely model.Thanks GlennO, very helpful observations. Unfortunately for me it's a case of 'don't know what you've got till it's gone.'
Do you know whether any of the current models have applied minute markers?
Also, what is the model of your Citizen chronomaster, it looks lovely?
I think they've done away with applied minute markers completely.
The Chronomaster is CTQ57-1201 on bracelet or CTQ57-1203 on croc. It's discontinued but can still be sourced, though probably not for much longer.
Excellent, thank you!
Oops, sorry about that! Which model did you go for? I am sure that it will still be a stunner.
No worries, It was always going to be a lottery buying blind
Went for a sbgx059 as i like the polar white dial, the price was better than expected so took a punt on one, i have spent a lot of time trying to decide on what i want from a watch and it ticks a lot of boxes but it may be a huge disappointment
I feel the same way about Spring Drive - I want to try it but I instinctively don't like or wear quartz (apart from my Tuna) when I can have mechanical. I hope SD gives me the pleasure and interaction of a mechanical with the benefits of quartz.
But more than anything, I want that dial!
Sounds like you took your time deciding and I'm sure you'll love it. The changes from those long discontinued models are fairly minor really and the price is much better nowadays. You still get that fabulous movement and an excellent finish on case, dial and hands.
I have several automatics and enjoy them very much but the 9F62 is the main draw for me towards the GS
I may hate it but it really is an itch i have to scratch
I'm not sure what I think about Spring Drive really, it's neither fish nor fowl and still carries the associated service costs of a mechanical. I think I prefer the purity of the 9F or the High Beat models.
I agree that the snowflake dial is a stunner though, especially with that ice blue seconds hand, and the SD makes it glide!
Last edited by Rocket Man; 19th July 2015 at 11:29.
You really do need to try living with a GS Spring Drive. It's not like living with Quartz. My favourites are the Ti SBGA011 Snowflake, and the Ti SBGA031 diver. Both are stunning.
There is also a rarer version of the Snowflake. SBGA129:
When I first learnt about Spring Drive I thought the same, that it was a hybrid of sorts and that I preferred the idea of a movement being either all of one or all of another. Sometime after I bought my first, and so far only, Grand Seiko, and despite my initial thoughts on the movement types it was a SD.
I'd still like to try a 9f or Hi-Beat however the SD is just wonderful, I've no regrets. The accuracy is only bettered by my atomic G-Shocks yet I still have the level of interaction that I would with any regular auto, 72h power reserve isn't too shabby either. The smooooth second hand glide causes me to look at the dial without taking note of the time.
For me that is the nicest GS I've ever seen.There is also a rarer version of the Snowflake. SBGA129:
If you are interested he has just quoted me €4,900 for the Snowflake including shipping.
Wonder if he'd do a better price for two..?
I've just asked :)
Hmmm, I don't know the SBGA129? ... Is it Titanium also?
The bracelet isn't as nice.
No it's SS and cheaper than the 011. At 39mm it's also a little smaller, but it's an LE with only 369 pieces and most are sold.
http://www.jw-oomiya.co.jp/ajhh-grandseiko/
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