closing tag is in template navbar
timefactors watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Page 6 of 17 FirstFirst ... 4567816 ... LastLast
Results 251 to 300 of 838

Thread: Need help! My old watch turns out to be registered as stolen...!

  1. #251
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Margaritaville
    Posts
    14,189
    Yup, a warrant or writ of control depending if in high/county court. And enforcement officers. Same lovely chaps, new pcwnkspeak name.

  2. #252
    What a lot of nonsense. We have nearly reached 250 posts and strayed from the point....

    Tris was sold a stolen watch by another forum member.... which was quite rightly confiscated by Rolex.
    The seller doesn't want to refund his money - and seems to be content to leave Tris with the problem.
    Well that just isn't good enough. He must refund Tris in full, and then go back to the person he bought the watch off for his refund.

    I am sure I speak for many people on this forum that will never deal with Jeroen/JTrapman

  3. #253
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Margaritaville
    Posts
    14,189
    Proposed solution:

    If JT cannot refund let him send Tris one of his other watches.

    If watch returned by Rolex then JT gets his watch back. If not, Tris keeps the other watch with price adjustment (if necessary) to be agreed now.

    Nobody out of pocket until its resolved. Tris has security, JT has motivation to get his money back on stolen piece.

    Just a thought.

  4. #254
    Master Cirrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by dkpw View Post
    Assuming the original German owner of the watch received an insurance payout, the watch now belongs to the insurance company. Rolex will be checking the situation and are holding it to return it to the lawful title holder. It's may be annoying for Tris but it's also totally responsible. Put yourself in the position of the owner who lost his watch or the insurance company.
    Sadly, everyone downstream from the original theft is also a victim.
    That's part of the issue though... if it passed through a jurisdiction where buying and selling in good faith legitimises the title claim of the new owner then it doesn't belong to the insurance company - it belongs to whomever bought it.

    I have been trying to verify this title thing, but for some reasons all the websites that deal with it are written in some foreign language - and it appears to be a fairly complicated thing even without that. The chance that it might be correct, though, means it has to be considered... if OP were to pay-up for a watch he was perfectly entitled to sell then he is unfairly and unjustly out of pocket - and if Rolex return it to the original owner / his insurers then they have stolen it!

  5. #255
    Grand Master Daddelvirks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Leiden- Netherlands
    Posts
    40,132
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh B View Post
    Proposed solution:

    If JT cannot refund let him send Tris one of his other watches.

    If watch returned by Rolex then JT gets his watch back. If not, Tris keeps the other watch with price adjustment (if necessary) to be agreed now.

    Nobody out of pocket until its resolved. Tris has security, JT has motivation to get his money back on stolen piece.

    Just a thought.
    And a sensible one IMHO.

    The gentlemanly thing to do.

    Daddel.
    Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!

  6. #256
    Craftsman Pubdweller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    London
    Posts
    373
    Quote Originally Posted by sevvy View Post
    Whilst I certainly have sympathy for what has happened to both parties I'm struggling to find it in me to sympathise too much with the OP for his seemed unwillingness to refund the buyer. It seems (and I may be wrong here's) that the OP is only happy to refund the buyer once he knows he'll get refunded.

    To me the Op needs to prioritise refunding the buyer first and then going about claiming the money back himself.
    +1

  7. #257
    Master Cirrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    5,367
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh B View Post
    Proposed solution:

    If JT cannot refund let him send Tris one of his other watches.

    If watch returned by Rolex then JT gets his watch back. If not, Tris keeps the other watch with price adjustment (if necessary) to be agreed now.

    Nobody out of pocket until its resolved. Tris has security, JT has motivation to get his money back on stolen piece.

    Just a thought.
    Its a good thought... shows good faith all round.

  8. #258
    Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,577
    Quote Originally Posted by nickspitfire View Post
    Or in the spirit of the forum we could all contribute £1 to Tris until his loses are covered. Then if the watch is returned to him, he can raffle the watch off to the members who contributed and one lucky member will get a rolex for £1.
    Love this. I don't see the OP disappearing on this one, but if he does...

  9. #259
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    441
    lots of anger because of the study statement. Let me clear this up. I get paid 8 euro's an hour. How long do you think it will take me to recover the 3000 euro. No worries, Tris and I are in good terms and will reach a solution. For now, we just have to wait and see what Rolex and the police say about the matter, and what happens next. This also involves the people further down the chain, the insurance company, the original owner, and so forth. We're in the dark now, let's clear things up first.

    I'm a genuine good guy hoping to make everything right, and so is Tris. All will end well. It just can't be expected of me to refund Tris in a matter of hours, it's only yesterday we both heard what was happening.

    In the mean time Tris and I had loads of comm about everything. I contacted the previous owner, who's doing everything he can to figure out where and from whom he got the watch. Furthermore I went to a legal advice office to get some more information about everything, and also went to the police to report this drama.

    Tris will get either the money back, or the watch.

  10. #260
    Master kungfugerbil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Whitby (not the one in Ontario)
    Posts
    6,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh B View Post
    Proposed solution
    Blimey Josh, it's almost like you're a professional at this sort of thing :)

    I like that solution but suspect it won't fly with the OP.

  11. #261
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Everywhere & nowhere, baby
    Posts
    37,644
    Quote Originally Posted by JTrapman View Post
    lots of anger because of the study statement. Let me clear this up. I get paid 8 euro's an hour. How long do you think it will take me to recover the 3000 euro. No worries, Tris and I are in good terms and will reach a solution. For now, we just have to wait and see what Rolex and the police say about the matter, and what happens next. This also involves the people further down the chain, the insurance company, the original owner, and so forth. We're in the dark now, let's clear things up first.

    I'm a genuine good guy hoping to make everything right, and so is Tris. All will end well. It just can't be expected of me to refund Tris in a matter of hours, it's only yesterday we both heard what was happening.

    In the mean time Tris and I had loads of comm about everything. I contacted the previous owner, who's doing everything he can to figure out where and from whom he got the watch. Furthermore I went to a legal advice office to get some more information about everything, and also went to the police to report this drama.

    Tris will get either the money back, or the watch.
    This is the statement of intent that was required at the outset, but you've made it now. Good luck to both of you resolving this unfortunate mess.

  12. #262
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Margaritaville
    Posts
    14,189
    Quote Originally Posted by JTrapman View Post

    Tris will get either the money back, or the watch.
    good man.

  13. #263
    Grand Master Daddelvirks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Leiden- Netherlands
    Posts
    40,132
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by JTrapman View Post
    lots of anger because of the study statement. Let me clear this up. I get paid 8 euro's an hour. How long do you think it will take me to recover the 3000 euro. No worries, Tris and I are in good terms and will reach a solution. For now, we just have to wait and see what Rolex and the police say about the matter, and what happens next. This also involves the people further down the chain, the insurance company, the original owner, and so forth. We're in the dark now, let's clear things up first.

    I'm a genuine good guy hoping to make everything right, and so is Tris. All will end well. It just can't be expected of me to refund Tris in a matter of hours, it's only yesterday we both heard what was happening.

    In the mean time Tris and I had loads of comm about everything. I contacted the previous owner, who's doing everything he can to figure out where and from whom he got the watch. Furthermore I went to a legal advice office to get some more information about everything, and also went to the police to report this drama.

    Tris will get either the money back, or the watch.
    OK, I'll go with your last statement and leave it at that.

    But stop the study/8 Euro's an hour crap, and buy a Steinhart intstead.

    Daddel.
    Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!

  14. #264
    Master kungfugerbil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Whitby (not the one in Ontario)
    Posts
    6,838
    Quote Originally Posted by JTrapman View Post
    lLet me clear this up. I get paid 8 euro's an hour.
    Some might suggest that having at least 10K to 15K EUR tied up in watches is a bit daft then.

    Tris will get either the money back, or the watch.
    I don't doubt that, ultimately. The 'pain' of waiting with neither watch nor money for what could be months and months of international argument should not however be his.

  15. #265
    What a horrible situation and as others have said if this was my sale then I would be arranging an immediate refund immediately - I do get that this can be a problem down the line but this all sounds a rather recent transaction.

    I don't agree with the "wouldn't touch a 2nd hand Rolex" etc. the only Rolex I have sold here was bought from a reputable source (local specialist watch dealer) and so I have no concerns about reselling it and have a complete trail through my custody to the new purchaser.

    This this does raise a concern re the provenance of any watch that is bought and sold and it will be interesting to see what happens in the end, but personally I would rather the service center holds the watch whilst enquiries are made and it actually gives me more confidence that if my watch were stolen I may one day get it back.

    I feel the post sale insurance fraud is a bit elaborate and unlikely but as with any sale here or elsewhere it does show the importance of who you buy from.

  16. #266
    Master Mr Stoat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    3,830
    Quote Originally Posted by JTrapman View Post
    lots of anger because of the study statement. Let me clear this up. I get paid 8 euro's an hour. How long do you think it will take me to recover the 3000 euro. No worries, Tris and I are in good terms and will reach a solution. For now, we just have to wait and see what Rolex and the police say about the matter, and what happens next. This also involves the people further down the chain, the insurance company, the original owner, and so forth. We're in the dark now, let's clear things up first.

    I'm a genuine good guy hoping to make everything right, and so is Tris. All will end well. It just can't be expected of me to refund Tris in a matter of hours, it's only yesterday we both heard what was happening.
    That's all well and good, but you had enough capital to buy a two Rolex and a Panerai so perhaps you can see why folk are struggling for sympathy now you claim to have no money and low earnings.


    Quote Originally Posted by JTrapman View Post
    In the mean time Tris and I had loads of comm about everything. I contacted the previous owner, who's doing everything he can to figure out where and from whom he got the watch. Furthermore I went to a legal advice office to get some more information about everything, and also went to the police to report this drama.
    That is irrelevant to the transaction between you and Tris, it seems you're trying to tie your refund to Tris's refund ... again, that is why folk are running out of sympathy for you as that's not the gentlemanly way to approach this.

    Quote Originally Posted by JTrapman View Post
    Tris will get either the money back, or the watch.
    That's good to hear.

  17. #267
    Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    East Midlands
    Posts
    2,015
    Quote Originally Posted by Jdh1 View Post
    This is very simple. The OP has sold a stolen watch to a member here. The circumstances are irrelevant to the key point - he should now refund the buyer without delay and THEN set about dealing with his own redress. I'm afraid the 'I've got no money' argument doesn't work for me either. It looks as though £2,000 is involved. There are very few people in the developed world (and less who frequent sites like this) who cannot raise, beg or borrow (I won't say steal!) this sort of money if they don't have it. I'm not saying it can be done without sacrifice or temporary difficulty, but it can be done.

    At the moment the OP is allowing someone else to suffer the hardship/difficulty and that can't be right.
    My feelings exactly.

  18. #268
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Unknown
    Posts
    5,865
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Stoat View Post
    That's all well and good, but you had enough capital to buy a two Rolex and a Panerai so perhaps you can see why folk are struggling for sympathy now you claim to have no money and low earnings.
    The lesson here is don't spend what you cant afford to lose on luxury watches ... and don't buy from unauthorised dealers if you can't afford to take the loss if the deal goes bad ...

    There is a reason usually if the price seems too good ...

  19. #269
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,248
    Until the ownership/title situation has been cleared up, I think it's unfair to get the pitchforks out for Jereon. He may actually be the legal owner! Refunding money at this stage seems premature.

    I look forward to hearing what Rolex come back with. Good luck to both of you.

  20. #270
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Margaritaville
    Posts
    14,189
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarfan View Post
    Until the ownership/title situation has been cleared up, I think it's unfair to get the pitchforks out for Jereon. He may actually be the legal owner! Refunding money at this stage seems premature.

    I look forward to hearing what Rolex come back with. Good luck to both of you.
    I quite agree that there is no reason to get heavy on JT.

    He cant be the legal owner of the watch. Either he was and has passed good title to Tris or he was not and title lies somewhere up the chain. But thats beside the point.

    As i said much earlier, i am confident the parties will come to a sensible solution they are both ok with.

    whether JT ought to reflect in his spending habits is a matter for him. Surely its better to turn savings into watches than into booze like most of us did at uni?

    Yes he should be investing furiously in a dividend reinvestment programme. But tell that to your own younger self ;)

  21. #271
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Chester and Merseyside, UK
    Posts
    4,342
    Quote Originally Posted by MB2 View Post
    I feel the post sale insurance fraud is a bit elaborate and unlikely.
    As stated earier in the thread, I am involved specifically with the insurance claims made for Rolex watches, several hundred every six months on the basis of my usual involvement.

    Fraudulent claims made post-disposal are very, very common and the trend is that it is increasing quickly.

    The known absence of the Lost / Stolen Register's public access has perhaps brought this trend about, though it has also brought forward the launch of the not-for-profit Watch Register.

    Haywood Milton

  22. #272
    Grand Master Daddelvirks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Leiden- Netherlands
    Posts
    40,132
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh B View Post
    I quite agree that there is no reason to get heavy on JT.

    He cant be the legal owner of the watch. Either he was and has passed good title to Tris or he was not and title lies somewhere up the chain. But thats beside the point.

    As i said much earlier, i am confident the parties will come to a sensible solution they are both ok with.

    whether JT ought to reflect in his spending habits is a matter for him. Surely its better to turn savings into watches than into booze like most of us did at uni?

    Yes he should be investing furiously in a dividend reinvestment programme. But tell that to your own younger self ;)
    Who says he isn't doing both...........

    Daddel.
    Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!

  23. #273
    Master Possu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    3,744
    Quote Originally Posted by JTrapman View Post
    Tris will get either the money back, or the watch.
    Very good, this is what everyone wanted to hear.

    Now I suggest we cut JT some slack and let Tris and JT sort out the schedule themselves. It's quite fine to stock up on pitchforks, but let's deploy them on Tris' command.

  24. #274
    Craftsman geek0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    South Germany, near Switzerland
    Posts
    288
    Quote Originally Posted by JTrapman View Post
    Tris will get either the money back, or the watch.
    +1

  25. #275
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Chester and Merseyside, UK
    Posts
    4,342
    A few comments have been made about Rolex UK's withdrawal of public access to the Lost / Stolen Register, to which it may be pertinent that I add :

    1). I wrote a two-page article in the UK trade magazine "The Jeweller" about the subject, giving every reason why it should be restored. Specifically, I argued with the backing of a number of other big players that we would all be happy to pay £10-£20 per watch for the privilege of making enquiries. I know that this article was retained at Rolex UK and the matter was revisited a number of times. At the most promising point there was talk of them meeting with the head of the UK's NAG Institute of Registered Valuers and me, but ultimately the mooted invitation never came.

    2). I have tried to apply pressure through underwriters and insurers ( Rolex UK has been enjoying cover from the same providers as those which many jewellers including my own three companies use ). These insurers are suffering significant domestic and retail losses as a result of the ready movement of stolen watches. Still my efforts have been frustrated.

    3). If Rolex's intention was to curtail the secondhand trade in their watches, it has been worse than a failure. The removal of general access to the Register has actually allowed illicit trade to flourish undetected along with honest trade, which has of course continued, unaffected.

    4). For buyers of secondhand Rolex, I would say that the situation remains very much as it was before. The best protection of all comes from dealing with a seller from whom you KNOW as far as possible that you will be able to get recourse if things go wrong later, even years later. For many people, this will mean buying secondhand Rolex only from companies with significant assets and a long trading history.

    Yes, watches are often identified as stolen long after a transaction has taken place. I bought 50% of two companies back in 2007 and 2008, where a little watch business was done but without the necessary knowledge to do it properly. A few years later, a client who had bought a 14060 non-date Submariner from one of them prior to my involvement returned, as his watch had gone to Rolex and been flagged as stolen from another shop (one which many members will know, in fact). It was all very civil and friendly, and in a matter of days we had established the truth of the matter; I agreed a very happy deal with the shop that had suffered the loss, Rolex and the police had the details of the person who had sold the watch to my company and, most happily of all, the original shop were able to supply me with the original papers that had been lacking from the watch. My company's client was very happy now to have a watch with papers (given to him for free, of course), and I think we even paid half of his Rolex service costs as a little extra gesture.

    Now, while I have enjoyed the honest friendship of many here on tz-UK, what confidence might I have that SillyPseudonym256 would similarly look after me if a watch he sold turned out to be stolen a few years later?

    With kind regards,

    Haywood Milton
    Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 13th March 2015 at 12:26.

  26. #276
    Master DB9yeti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    8,264
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarfan View Post
    Until the ownership/title situation has been cleared up, I think it's unfair to get the pitchforks out for Jereon. He may actually be the legal owner! Refunding money at this stage seems premature.
    Spot on IMHO.

    This started YESTERDAY, Rolex have the watch and the two parties (at least) involved need to know what the process is. Tris wants the watch back, he may get it. If not, then Jeroen had said he'll refund him. Everything else is just belligerence or in some cases, people not even bothering to read the thread but still making judgements; Jim W, what the hell axe are you grinding? I'd refund the money in the situation, as will Jeroen, as would we all, but he really does need to find out what the Rolex process is first, and that may take a few days.

    Thinking back, I have been perhaps asked for a receipt twice when selling a watch, and that is on flipping hundreds of them, which I never asked for receipts for either - do any of us, really? A scary and complicated web and this thread, if nothing else had made me realise my habits have to change. I will make a receipt of some sort and also ask for one from now on. Buy the seller; I have bought from 'diamond geezers' every time on here, no doubt they have bought from great guys when they acquired the watches but there could so easily be a Sayub/Keir333 down the line somewhere, 5 owners back.

    This thread is one of those 'whoa' moments for me in the watch game.

  27. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by JTrapman View Post
    lots of anger because of the study statement. Let me clear this up. I get paid 8 euro's an hour. How long do you think it will take me to recover the 3000 euro. No worries, Tris and I are in good terms and will reach a solution. For now, we just have to wait and see what Rolex and the police say about the matter, and what happens next. This also involves the people further down the chain, the insurance company, the original owner, and so forth. We're in the dark now, let's clear things up first.

    I'm a genuine good guy hoping to make everything right, and so is Tris. All will end well. It just can't be expected of me to refund Tris in a matter of hours, it's only yesterday we both heard what was happening.

    In the mean time Tris and I had loads of comm about everything. I contacted the previous owner, who's doing everything he can to figure out where and from whom he got the watch. Furthermore I went to a legal advice office to get some more information about everything, and also went to the police to report this drama.

    Tris will get either the money back, or the watch.
    This is crap.
    Give him his money back now. stop stalling and pay up.

  28. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    A few comments have been made about Rolex UK's withdrawal of public access to the Lost / Stolen Register, to which it may be pertinent that I add :
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Whose Lost/Stolen register is it - Rolex UK or Rolex (worldwide?). Doesn't make sense (to me) that this would be done on a national basis. What is done elsewhere - did Rolex UK provide a worldwide service?

  29. #279
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Chester and Merseyside, UK
    Posts
    4,342
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Whose Lost/Stolen register is it - Rolex UK or Rolex (worldwide?). Doesn't make sense (to me) that this would be done on a national basis. What is done elsewhere - did Rolex UK provide a worldwide service?
    Latterly, Rolex UK would check their own register but subsequently they would also hear back from Rolex Geneva, so one might not get a hit on the UK list but an international hit may then follow.

    If you deal in thousands of watches, you will have it happen occasionally. Again, from the businesses I took over there was a blue dial Oyster Perpetual Date 15200 which turned out to have been taken from the Bucherer boutique. Again, I came to a nice arrangement with Bucherer and Rolex UK were even so good as to handle my payment, which they transferred in Monopoly money to Europe for me! Ah, the happy days of Henry H !

    If you buy just one secondhand Rolex privately from a source where you might not be able to get restitution in the event of a later problem, the odds are in your favour, but best to be aware that buying that way is Russian Roulette......

    Haywood Milton

  30. #280
    Master DB9yeti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    8,264
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
    This is crap.
    Give him his money back now. stop stalling and pay up.
    What the hell has it got to do with you, just out of interest?

  31. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by DB9yeti View Post
    Spot on IMHO.

    This started YESTERDAY, Rolex have the watch and the two parties (at least) involved need to know what the process is. Tris wants the watch back, he may get it. If not, then Jeroen had said he'll refund him. Everything else is just belligerence or in some cases, people not even bothering to read the thread but still making judgements; Jim W, what the hell axe are you grinding? I'd refund the money in the situation, as will Jeroen, as would we all, but he really does need to find out what the Rolex process is first, and that may take a few days.

    Thinking back, I have been perhaps asked for a receipt twice when selling a watch, and that is on flipping hundreds of them, which I never asked for receipts for either - do any of us, really? A scary and complicated web and this thread, if nothing else had made me realise my habits have to change. I will make a receipt of some sort and also ask for one from now on. Buy the seller; I have bought from 'diamond geezers' every time on here, no doubt they have bought from great guys when they acquired the watches but there could so easily be a Sayub/Keir333 down the line somewhere, 5 owners back.

    This thread is one of those 'whoa' moments for me in the watch game.
    Good points here and everyone should put their pitchforks away!

    The OP has said he'll refund the money but everyone can't necessarily do that IMMEDIATELY as some have suggested. Even if he has a couple of expensive watches, they'll take a while to sell...

  32. #282
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    20,281
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    A few comments have been made about Rolex UK's withdrawal of public access to the Lost / Stolen Register, to which it may be pertinent that I add :

    1). I wrote a two-page article in the UK trade magazine "The Jeweller" about the subject, giving every reason why it should be restored. Specifically, I argued with the backing of a number of other big players that we would all be happy to pay £10-£20 per watch for the privilege of making enquiries. I know that this article was retained at Rolex UK and the matter was revisited a number of times. At the most promising point there was talk of them meeting with the head of the UK's NAG Institute of Registered Valuers and me, but ultimately the mooted invitation never came.

    2). I have tried to apply pressure through underwriters and insurers ( Rolex UK has been enjoying cover from the same providers as those which many jewellers including my own three companies use ). These insurers are suffering significant domestic and retail losses as a result of the ready movement of stolen watches. Still my efforts have been frustrated.

    3). If Rolex's intention was to curtail the secondhand trade in their watches, it has been worse than a failure. The removal of general access to the Register has actually allowed illicit trade to flourish undetected along with honest trade, which has of course continued, unaffected.

    4). For buyers of secondhand Rolex, I would say that the situation remains very much as it was before. The best protection of all comes from dealing with a seller from whom you KNOW as far as possible that you will be able to get recourse if things go wrong later, even years later. For many people, this will mean buying secondhand Rolex only from companies with significant assets and a long trading history.

    Yes, watches are often identified as stolen long after a transaction has taken place. I bought 50% of two companies back in 2007 and 2008, where a little watch business was done but without the necessary knowledge to do it properly. A few years later, a client who had bought a 14060 non-date Submariner from one of them prior to my involvement returned, as his watch had gone to Rolex and been flagged as stolen from another shop (one which many members will know, in fact). It was all very civil and friendly, and in a matter of days we had established the truth of the matter; I agreed a very happy deal with the shop that had suffered the loss, Rolex and the police had the details of the person who had sold the watch to my company and, most happily of all, the original shop were able to supply me with the original papers that had been lacking from the watch. My company's client was very happy now to have a watch with papers (given to him for free, of course), and I think we even paid half of his Rolex service costs as a little extra gesture.

    Now, while I have enjoyed the honest friendship of many here on tz-UK, what confidence might I have that SillyPseudonym256 would similarly look after me if a watch he sold turned out to be stolen a few years later?

    With kind regards,

    Haywood Milton
    Although I'm only new here (been registered some time but only recently found more time to be here) this is something I wouldn't have thought about until this thread. It's a sobering thought as I'm on the lookout for a Rolex s/h and may now consider dealer premiums more reasonable.
    Ian

  33. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by DB9yeti View Post
    What the hell has it got to do with you, just out of interest?
    It's what it's got to do with all of us, and the way we buy and sell on SC.

    Tris is the one out of pocket. It's not his fault.
    He should get his money back and Jeroen should go back to the person he bought it of for his refund.

    All I've seen on here from Jeroen is trying to squirm his way out of giving a refund.
    Meanwhile Tris is down thousands of pounds while Jeroen is making excuses.
    It just isn't on.

  34. #284
    Craftsman Seamaster77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Newcastle, UK
    Posts
    504
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Latterly, Rolex UK would check their own register but subsequently they would also hear back from Rolex Geneva, so one might not get a hit on the UK list but an international hit may then follow.


    Haywood Milton
    I mentioned on other thread why don't the watch community use immobilise maybe once its starts getting some use by the community then the manufactures might follow and start feeding in there info just like the electronic manufacturers and networks currently do ? its also then on the lost stolen police register and very easy to update etc

    this means rolex etc dont take all these queries and dealers and end users can for a nominal fee do a current check, maybe some self policing by the community might help the bigger guys take notice ??

    the technology is there and in use seems shame not to use it

  35. #285
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,672
    Quote Originally Posted by DB9yeti View Post
    Spot on IMHO.

    This started YESTERDAY, Rolex have the watch and the two parties (at least) involved need to know what the process is. Tris wants the watch back, he may get it. If not, then Jeroen had said he'll refund him. Everything else is just belligerence or in some cases, people not even bothering to read the thread but still making judgements; Jim W, what the hell axe are you grinding? I'd refund the money in the situation, as will Jeroen, as would we all, but he really does need to find out what the Rolex process is first, and that may take a few days.

    Thinking back, I have been perhaps asked for a receipt twice when selling a watch, and that is on flipping hundreds of them, which I never asked for receipts for either - do any of us, really? A scary and complicated web and this thread, if nothing else had made me realise my habits have to change. I will make a receipt of some sort and also ask for one from now on. Buy the seller; I have bought from 'diamond geezers' every time on here, no doubt they have bought from great guys when they acquired the watches but there could so easily be a Sayub/Keir333 down the line somewhere, 5 owners back.

    This thread is one of those 'whoa' moments for me in the watch game.
    +1, or whatever's the current fashionable trend for stating one agrees, in as few words as possible. (#irony)

  36. #286
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,248
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
    Tris is the one out of pocket. It's not his fault.
    He should get his money back and Jeroen should go back to the person he bought it of for his refund.

    All I've seen on here from Jeroen is trying to squirm his way out of giving a refund.
    Meanwhile Tris is down thousands of pounds while Jeroen is making excuses.
    It just isn't on.
    Tris' watch is "on hold". it may be returned to him if title had passed to Jeroen legally, or if the original stolen report was fraudulent.

    Tris isn't actually out of pocket yet.

  37. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
    It's what it's got to do with all of us, and the way we buy and sell on SC.

    Tris is the one out of pocket. It's not his fault.
    He should get his money back and Jeroen should go back to the person he bought it of for his refund.

    All I've seen on here from Jeroen is trying to squirm his way out of giving a refund.
    Meanwhile Tris is down thousands of pounds while Jeroen is making excuses.
    It just isn't on.
    Have to agree with this. OP came here looking for advice and majority view is that he should pay Tris back ASAP.

    Appreciate that this only happened yesterday, but how long is Tris expected to wait for a refund, which seems to have various strings attached including the OP pleading poverty, when OP apparently has watches which he could sell, pawn or loan to Tris within days as security?

    Hats off to Tris for being so understanding.

  38. #288
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Chester and Merseyside, UK
    Posts
    4,342
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamaster77 View Post
    I mentioned on other thread why don't the watch community use immobilise maybe once its starts getting some use by the community then the manufactures might follow and start feeding in there info just like the electronic manufacturers and networks currently do ? its also then on the lost stolen police register and very easy to update etc

    this means rolex etc dont take all these queries and dealers and end users can for a nominal fee do a current check, maybe some self policing by the community might help the bigger guys take notice ??

    the technology is there and in use seems shame not to use it
    All UK police forces are already feeding "live" stolen watch data to the not-for-profit Safergems Watch Register and historic data is now being added, too. It is unlikely that they will wish to supply data to further third parties which, unlike this one, do not have the backing of the National Association of Goldsmiths, the National Pawnbrokers Association, T.H.March ( largest industry broker ) and many others.

    Haywood Milton

  39. #289
    IF Rolex is the primary holder and maintainer of the data of lost/stolen Rolex watches then:
    How can a private corporation be the primary in holding and maintaining a register of stolen items (criminal related data). This must be done by the Police.
    Unless Rolex can prove the item is stolen using official data (like a police background check) then what they are effectively doing is stealing from the person that sent in the watch. Of course, if Rolex check with the POLICE first and it is reported as stolen then Rolex have to deal with the Police, not the insurance company or other keepers. If they don't follow the rule then that system is open to all sorts of abuse by the corporations and public.

    If the Police are the primary holder and maintainer of the data of lost/stolen Rolex watches then:
    A Police investigation would need to resolve the situation, not a private corporation like Rolex. I think the OP did the right thing in reporting it to the Police but admitting to "handling stolen goods" means you then have to justify you were unaware and were a victim which is damn scary.

    It's a very difficult situation especially when items move across countries
    Last edited by LonginesManiac; 13th March 2015 at 13:15.

  40. #290
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Die Fuchsröhre
    Posts
    14,993
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
    It's what it's got to do with all of us, and the way we buy and sell on SC.

    Tris is the one out of pocket. It's not his fault.
    He should get his money back and Jeroen should go back to the person he bought it of for his refund.

    All I've seen on here from Jeroen is trying to squirm his way out of giving a refund.
    Meanwhile Tris is down thousands of pounds while Jeroen is making excuses.
    It just isn't on.
    I get the feeling you aren't able to see through the red mist and actually understand anything written on this thread so far. I also get the feeling Jeroen started this thread to get constructive advice rather than attacks on his morals.

  41. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    I get the feeling you aren't able to see through the red mist and actually understand anything written on this thread so far. I also get the feeling Jeroen started this thread to get constructive advice rather than attacks on his morals.
    +1 exactly what I have thought about all JimW posts.

  42. #292
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,672
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
    It's what it's got to do with all of us, and the way we buy and sell on SC.

    Tris is the one out of pocket. It's not his fault.
    He should get his money back and Jeroen should go back to the person he bought it of for his refund.

    All I've seen on here from Jeroen is trying to squirm his way out of giving a refund.
    Meanwhile Tris is down thousands of pounds while Jeroen is making excuses.
    It just isn't on.
    Time to reign it in Jim - you've made your position abundantly clear enough times now, and Jerome has clarified his position so that no-one is in any doubt over his intentions to see the matter resolved between all parties concerned.
    It's only been 24 hours sinice the issue came to light - you should appreciate it will take a bit of time before both members know the exact state of affairs, which is complicated somewhat by the Dutch legal aspect of ownership.
    Both members need to await the outcome of various investigations and legal advice before making any moves.
    Your ranting wont speed things along, so you'd be best to relax and quit trying to bust a bloodvessel!
    Last edited by PJ S; 13th March 2015 at 13:08.

  43. #293
    does seem odd to me that you can lay out 3k one day without your studies being impacted, but then a week later cannot do the same. But that's been commented on plenty ....

    my point is what if the buyer merrily wore the watch for 5 years before sending it in to service. He may then not be able to find the seller, the seller may say too much water passed under bridge etc etc ..... so I'm with Haywood - if you want peace of mind buying 2nd hand then have to buy of someone or a business you can trust and has assets. Whilst I have bought (quite a few) and sold (not many) on SC, my larger purchases have all been from bricks and mortar long established dealers.

  44. #294
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    East Midlands
    Posts
    461
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
    This is crap.
    Give him his money back now. stop stalling and pay up.
    With respect, but this is just rude. Nobody is out of pocket at this point, and it's not like Tris needs the money right now. Let's see what happens with the investigation - if the outcome is that the watch is returned to Germany then I'd expect the OP to come to some arrangement with Tris. Patience truly is a virtue...

  45. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    I get the feeling you aren't able to see through the red mist and actually understand anything written on this thread so far. I also get the feeling Jeroen started this thread to get constructive advice rather than attacks on his morals.
    I think along with the majority on here I understand very well.

    The consensus of constructive advice is give the poor man his money back. Then the OP should go back to the person he bought it off for his refund.
    Isn't that the way it should be?

    It seems to me that giving Tris his money back depends on him getting his back first.
    I wonder how many people on here would ever buy anything from him? I certainly wouldn't.

  46. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by PJ S View Post
    Time to reign it in Jim - you've made your position abundantly clear enough times now, and Jerome has clarified his position so that no-one is in any doubt over his intentions to see the matter resolved between all parties concerned.
    It's only been 24 hours sinice the issue came to light - you should appreciate it will take a bit of time before both members know the exact state of affairs, which is complicated somewhat by the Dutch legal aspect of ownership.
    Both members need to await the outcome of various investigations and legal advice before making any moves.
    Your ranting wont speed things along, so you'd be best to relax and quit trying to bust a bloodvessel!
    Yes I think you're right.
    We'll see how this gets resolved.

  47. #297
    Must admit I'm firmly in the immediate refund camp - just a personal view FWIW and what I hope I'd do in the OP's position - and must say I've been a bit surprised, just skimming this thread, at how many folks take a more nuanced/downright different stance. Some interesting ideas and perspectives.

    My personal take-away from what I've read, since I can't help re legal position etc, is that I will try to be a bit more careful when I'm making higher-value purchases on here in future. So don't think I'd buy a watch that had been through several pairs of hands in fairly short order, or one that didn't have box, papers and a decent paper trail (irrespective of its age - so a recent service invoice from the mfr might suffice). And I'd also probably only buy from a well established member on here of the 'old school', since it seems I'm becoming a bit of a dinosaur myself....

  48. #298
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,248
    Quote Originally Posted by simoscribbler View Post
    Must admit I'm firmly in the immediate refund camp - just a personal view FWIW and what I hope I'd do in the OP's position - and must say I've been a bit surprised, just skimming this thread, at how many folks take a more nuanced/downright different stance. Some interesting ideas and perspectives.
    Until the watch is 100% certified as stolen and Tris is notified that it will be returned to the German owner/insurance company then nothing should be done IMHO. It's a waiting game!

  49. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarfan View Post
    Until the watch is 100% certified as stolen and Tris is notified that it will be returned to the German owner/insurance company then nothing should be done IMHO. It's a waiting game!
    Are things that simple?

    A read through of this thread suggests that even if the watch is (or was) stolen the seller here may have title to it under Dutch law.

  50. #300
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    leeds
    Posts
    105
    Quote Originally Posted by JTrapman View Post
    How much I'd like to help Tris, I simply can't refund him. I purchased the watch in good faith, which I can prove, and sold it to Tris, who bought it in good faith, as we both can prove. I'm not sure either of us is responsible in this situation.

    I'm not trying to get out of this, but repaying Tris would mean I'd have to quit my study ... EDIT: lots of anger because of this statement. Let me clear this up. I get paid 8 euro's an hour. How long do you think it will take me to recover the 3000 euro. No worries, Tris and I are in good terms and will reach a solution. For now, we just have to wait and see what Rolex and the police say about the matter, and what happens next. This also involves the people further down the chain, the insurance company, the original owner, and so forth. We're in the dark now, let's clear things up first.

    I'm actually doing everything iN my power to help Tris and the police, but this one is really out of my reasonable power.
    Your number one priority should be to repay Tris the money he paid for the watch. You have sold a stolen watch and are refusing to repay because this would cause you great hardship in my eyes that makes you almost as bad as the person who originally stole the watch. You seem to only care about the hardship you will suffer and not about the hardship Tris may suffer from this. Do you have other watches you can sell ? to repay Tris or other items you own that you could raise money from because that's what you need to start thinking about, you cannot abrogate your responsibility to those who sold you the watch that's just a act of moral cowardice on your part. Do the right thing and you might walk away with a shred of dignity on this forum.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Do Not Sell My Personal Information