AS Parking Cornwall. Should I pay a PCN?

[wrecker]

Ha ha , thanks for that classic.

Quite welcome.

[Kingstepper]

Here is what the OFT had to say about costs for collecting unpaid fees. This is why the Parking Company will be spanked in court every time. Well, that and the very last sentence stating that the consumer didn't even have a legitimate contact with the Parking Company in the first place.

Genuine pre-estimate of loss

The OFT expressed the view to the BPA that when claiming liquidated damages, they must meet the requirement of being a genuine pre estimate of loss. If back office functions are claimed, these must be directly caused by the breaches of contract. The OFT’s view was that if you have an office anyway and have to pay rent, rates, insurance, etc., this cannot be attributed to the breach and claimed as costs, as these are the costs of running a parking management company. To be recoverable, all costs, whether in contract or tort, must be caused by the breach.

Penalties and the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999

Further the OFT expressed the view that a parking charge will not automatically be recoverable, simply because it is stated to be a parking charge. It cannot be used to create a loss where none exists. It will not be recoverable if the court finds that it is being imposed as a penalty. If a parking charge is imposed for parking beyond hours permitted under a contract, in order for it to be recoverable as liquidated damages, the court will need to be satisfied of a number of matters, including that it represents a genuine pre-estimate of the loss incurred and that it meets the requirements of applicable consumer protection legislation, for example the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. The OFT also expressed the view that the court will also need to be satisfied about who the consumer was contracting with and that this is the party bringing proceedings.

Well that's as clear as mud. Office costs are mentioned but not staff costs to generate invoice etc.

TBH don't know why these companies bother, seem to be on a hiding to nothing. They should give up and you can walk or get a bus.

[andrew]

Could everyone who thinks it's ok to park for free on someone else's land PM me their address and I'll use their drive if I'm in the area.

If by parking on my land you also use my commercial products and services, that allow me to make money and profits, then sure. Free or ticketed parking, the cost of providing it is the cost of doing business. If it's private and there's no reason for being there, then no.

If you "don't know about their abuse" then either you never look at any news, or you work for one of these cowboys. You are enforcer, maybe?

[ralphy]

They may wish to choose to invoice for failure to display, but I very much doubt a Court would enforce their case given the purchase of the ticket and the fact the OP had placed it in his car.

The premise here is that there is evidence of purchase whereas there is no evidence that the employee of the company saw a lack of ticket.

R

If they don't have a digital photograph of the dash/windscreen I'd be very surprised indeed.

They may have, but it doesn’t negate the fact that a valid ticket had been purchased and could be evidenced in Court.

R

[wrecker]

They may have, but it doesn’t negate the fact that a valid ticket had been purchased and could be evidenced in Court.

Again, it doesn't matter to the scummers. The offence is for not correctly displaying a ticket, regardless of wether you have purchased one or not.

[Kingstepper]

If by parking on my land you also use my commercial products and services, that allow me to make money and profits, then sure. Free or ticketed parking, the cost of providing it is the cost of doing business. If it's private and there's no reason for being there, then no.

If you "don't know about their abuse" then either you never look at any news, or you work for one of these cowboys. You are enforcer, maybe?

I'm not an enforcer (or anything remotely related).

Further, I have never hand any dealings with these people. Am I just incredibly lucky (or is it because I park properly, display a valid ticket and get back before it expires)?

[P9CLY]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3J-Xl6rSlk

[PhilipK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3J-Xl6rSlk

That video dates from October 2011. The law has changed since then and the advice to ignore the Penalty Charge Notices is now wrong.

[DB9yeti]

The law changed when clamping became illegal in England and Wales. The advice prior to that was ignore it, now you can't.
Parking Eye (one of the main parasites in all this) are literally taking thousands to Court every month by using the bulk process centre at Northampton. Those people are the ones who ignored it.

100% correct - but it's also easy to find the names of those companies who do prosecute i.e. Parking Eye. Not many of them bother as 90% of people pay up and you're not worth chasing for 60 quid. Google and find out if AS, as a company will prosecute.

I recently ignored the standard 5 letters threatening me with excommunication and beheading until one day they simply stopped. And they move on to somone more gullible.

[ralphy]

Again, it doesn't matter to the scummers. The offence is for not correctly displaying a ticket, regardless of wether you have purchased one or not.

I don’t care whether it matters to them or not: my point is about what would matter to a Court.

R

[wrecker]

Well that's anybodys guess. It's certainly not a foregone.

[Seamaster73]

Could everyone who thinks it's ok to park for free on someone else's land PM me their address and I'll use their drive if I'm in the area.

Couldn't agree more.

[ralphy]

Well that's anybodys guess. It's certainly not a foregone.

Quite - and it is my guess, based on the OP’s outline of what happened.

R

[andymonkey]

Decided to wait for correspondence from AS Parking after reading many similar posts on pepipoo forum.
The general updated advice is to
1.Wait for a notice to keeper.
2.Appeal saying that the fine is not representative of actual loss to the company.
3.Request a popla code. ( the parking companies do not like popla as it costs them £27 to provide the code)
4.Appeal to popla.

Templates for all letters are on pepipoo.

Most if not all popla appeals are upheld.

The fightback forums on pepipoo are great, a wealth of info.

Thanks everyone

Andy

[walkerwek1958]

Could everyone who thinks it's ok to park for free on someone else's land PM me their address and I'll use their drive if I'm in the area.

Not a good analogy....but you know that without being reminded.

The OP paid to park, that's not under dispute. If common sense prevailed, proof of payment would be acceptable.......but the (lack of) ethics practiced by these companies makes it far more likely that they'll try to coerce the OP into paying. I'd make a proper response, indicating why I don`t intend paying the 'fine' and risk being taken to court. Morally, the OP's in the right.

Paul

[wrecker]

Quite - and it is my guess, based on the OP’s outline of what happened.

Well unless you are a judge, nobody cares.

[seadog1408]

Well unless you are a judge, nobody cares.

Ha ha, classic retort...... Not.

[wrecker]

Ha ha, classic retort...... Not.

Likewise....not. BTW we used that term when we were about 10 years old. Are you 10 years old?

[the big fella]

Decided to wait for correspondence from AS Parking after reading many similar posts on pepipoo forum.
The general updated advice is to
1.Wait for a notice to keeper.
2.Appeal saying that the fine is not representative of actual loss to the company.
3.Request a popla code. ( the parking companies do not like popla as it costs them £27 to provide the code)
4.Appeal to popla.

Templates for all letters are on pepipoo.

Most if not all popla appeals are upheld.

The fightback forums on pepipoo are great, a wealth of info.

Thanks everyone

Andy

If your waiting for the notice ,when you send it back put a letter in with it stating you had purchased a ticket when you parked ,also send them a photo copy not the original ticket , but also ask for the popla code in your return letter.

[Coops365]

Well unless you are a judge, nobody cares.

You're the one suggesting it's an 'offence' to not display a valid ticket in a private car park... You really need to do some reading up on this.

[wrecker]

You're the one suggesting it's an 'offence' to not display a valid ticket in a private car park... You really need to do some reading up on this.

I most certainly have not suggested anything of the sort. With respect, it is not me who need to do some reading.

[ralphy]

You're the one suggesting it's an 'offence' to not display a valid ticket in a private car park... You really need to do some reading up on this.

I most certainly have not suggested anything of the sort. With respect, it is not me who need to do some reading.

Perhaps you should do some reading too...

The offence is for not correctly displaying a ticket, regardless of wether you have purchased one or not.

R

[wrecker]

The "offence" as accused (as in breach of rule, not law).
No reading required thanks.

[seadog1408]

Diggers keep on digging lol.

[wrecker]

Yeah. Context is everything.

[ralphy]

The "offence" as accused (as in breach of rule, not law).
No reading required thanks.

This is a forum and as such what you write is the only communication. You certainly wrote it, so subsequently saying that you didn’t (and further that others should do some reading) is patently incorrect. Glass houses and all that. ;-)

R

[wrecker]

You knew exactly what was inplied, although I will concede that some inverted commas would have been beneficial.
The point is that the parking company DO believe that there has been an "offence" and that is exactly why you suggested court proceedings. There can be no court case without an "offence".

[ralphy]

You knew exactly what was inplied, although I will concede that some inverted commas would have been beneficial.
The point is that the parking company DO believe that there has been an "offence" and that is exactly why you suggested court proceedings. There can be no court case without an "offence".

It’s not up to us to try and mind-read your posts and I’d be grateful if you don’t try to tell me what’s in mine: the point I made was that you stated you hadn’t written it (in response to Coops355’s post) when clearly you had.

Furthermore, I did not suggest Court proceedings: my comment was opinion on what would happen if it went to Court.

R

[soundood]

had tons of these, ignore it, pay nothing, simples

they are not enforceable, but you 'may' be given a CCJ,

trust me that doesn't happen either, they wont waste their money.

what you will get is a lot of very boring threats from them in letter form, coming to your house/doorstep visit/pay now to avoid further action and so on

[Kingstepper]

had tons of these, ignore it, pay nothing, simples

they are not enforceable, but you 'may' be given a CCJ,

trust me that doesn't happen either, they wont waste their money.

what you will get is a lot of very boring threats from them in letter form, coming to your house/doorstep visit/pay now to avoid further action and so on

How do you get tons of these?

[soundood]

How do you get tons of these?

through my personal dealings and through work.

of course it is not literally 'tonne's' but in my time I must have ignored over a hundred of these with no come back, council tickets on the other hand.... wow

[Kingstepper]

through my personal dealings and through work.

of course it is not literally 'tonne's' but in my time I must have ignored over a hundred of these with no come back, council tickets on the other hand.... wow

So you don't bother paying?

[soundood]

So you don't bother paying?

exactly, never pay them, then ignore all letters etc,

they are not enforceable, only the council ones are

[scottbombedout]

had tons of these, ignore it, pay nothing, simples

they are not enforceable, but you 'may' be given a CCJ,

trust me that doesn't happen either, they wont waste their money.

what you will get is a lot of very boring threats from them in letter form, coming to your house/doorstep visit/pay now to avoid further action and so on

OK, I'll bite but please try and not take offence.

Even after some of the posters came back and have now realised the Law changed regarding private parking tickets, you still insist on posting the above.
You 'may be given a CCJ'? but then 'that doesn't happen either'. Thats alright then, whats a CCJ to ruin your credit anyway? Especially over a poxy £60 parking invoice.

Can you go and post your advice on Pepipoo so I can have a laugh at the responses you will get.

[Seamaster73]

had tons of these, ignore it, pay nothing, simples.

So you're quite happy to repeatedly trespass on private property to avoid having to pay for parking. Isn't that akin to petty theft, basically?

[The Hack]

I got a ticket from 'Parking Eye' last year (Heathrow Hotel car park) and duly ignored it (plus the myriad of chaser letters/ solicitor threats etc. etc.) for several months. IGNORE - seemed to be the perceived internet wisdom.

Finally the w@nkers went to a County Court and obtained a judgement against me! :( So I had to pay the fine plus Court costs. So my advice - wait and see as you may be lucky. :)

[wrecker]

I did not suggest Court proceedings: my comment was opinion on what would happen if it went to Court.

LOL. You don't think it will go to court BUT if it did, you (as a...erm....watch enthusiast) think he'll be OK.
Well that's that all cleared up then.....
And who appointed you the arbiter of right and wrong. If the poster wants to park and get invoices and not pay them, that's on him and frankly none of your business. You have no place attempting to chastise him for his choices especially when he's attempting to be more helpful that you have been.

[andymonkey]

Parking eye seem to be one of the companies who take people to court.

[Kingstepper]

I got a ticket from 'Parking Eye' last year (Heathrow Hotel car park) and duly ignored it (plus the myriad of chaser letters/ solicitor threats etc. etc.) for several months. IGNORE - seemed to be the perceived internet wisdom.

Finally the w@nkers went to a County Court and obtained a judgement against me! :( So I had to pay the fine plus Court costs. So my advice - wait and see as you may be lucky. :)

Why exactly are they wankers?

[soundood]

OK, I'll bite but please try and not take offence.

Even after some of the posters came back and have now realised the Law changed regarding private parking tickets, you still insist on posting the above.
You 'may be given a CCJ'? but then 'that doesn't happen either'. Thats alright then, whats a CCJ to ruin your credit anyway? Especially over a poxy £60 parking invoice.

Can you go and post your advice on Pepipoo so I can have a laugh at the responses you will get.

don't worry I have not taken offence, we all know the law changed in regards to these cowboys, but what you legislate and what you can enforce is two separate things, its a bit like the smoking ban in company vehicles in that sense, how can you police it? truth is we don't.

and regards to Pepinpoo, besides there name being ridiculous, they are scare mongers' who sold out to the common motorist ages ago, they have become a mouth piece for the enemy,

and while your at it, since you believe in them so much, you can go and troll through their site and show me evidence, that someone who has had a parking ticket from these extortionists, has had a CCJ or any other kind of repercussion.

So you're quite happy to repeatedly trespass on private property to avoid having to pay for parking. Isn't that akin to petty theft, basically?

now this is mildly amusing actually, at what point did you come to the revelation that I 'trespassed' anywhere? and how does one actually trespass into an open car park?

also how do I do this repeatedly?

and how by these actions am I avoiding any parking charges?

so if the sum of these parts are summed up in your head, to equal petty theft, please explain to me how you come to this conclusion.

if this makes it any clearer for you, here is one of the incidents, that I experience many times,


my daughter has global development delay, she is wheelchair bound, and has trouble eating. due to this she can take ages to eat anything, also we have to change her nappies which is no easy job, due to the fact she is 9 years of age.

when we visit McDonalds with her, you have a standard two hour slot for free as you are a customer, most times we go over this time limit, and the camera with record this.

the first few times it happened, we got the ticket through from NCMP or some other extortionists, we appealed with our reasons given above, they rejected it.

at that point I refused to pay, and have refused to pay ever since.

please, now tell me I am a petty thief that trespasses on private property

[scottbombedout]

don't worry I have not taken offence, we all know the law changed in regards to these cowboys, but what you legislate and what you can enforce is two separate things, its a bit like the smoking ban in company vehicles in that sense, how can you police it? truth is we don't.

and regards to Pepinpoo, besides there name being ridiculous, they are scare mongers' who sold out to the common motorist ages ago, they have become a mouth piece for the enemy,

and while your at it, since you believe in them so much, you can go and troll through their site and show me evidence, that someone who has had a parking ticket from these extortionists, has had a CCJ or any other kind of repercussion.

[/B]

I did a long reply to you but deleted it. Thats the first time I have ever done that.

Me replying is almost as ridiculous as your post.

[soundood]

I did a long reply to you but deleted it. Thats the first time I have ever done that.

Me replying is almost as ridiculous as your post.

I don't believe you, I really don't think you have the brains to go beyond a paragraph.

and welcome to my ignore list, ridicule that.

goodbye.

[mart broad]

The way I view this and ready to be proved wrong,
The OP parked in a private car park which I presume posted fees and terms and conditions of parking? one of which being failure to display a valid ticket is liable for a PCN? the reason for not displaying is not the responsibility of the parking company but the motorist if the said ticket was not displayed then the contract to park has been broken and a fee incurred.
Quite frankly I would not for £60.00 bother to go through the potential hassle of courts but write to the company with a copy of the ticket and hope you can come to an arrangement.To all if you use private facilities without looking at the T&C's that does make the parking companies "j arthurs"

[Seamaster73]

please, now tell me I am a petty thief that trespasses on private property

Fair enough. You're an edge case though.

Most of the people in this situation are as described — certainly the ones who blight the lives of everyone who lives in my building. We pay an annual fee for a parking space, and have to contend with freeloaders who trespass on our land to avoid paying for parking elsewhere. Now, please tell them just to "ignore it, pay nothing, simples", and carry on regardless. How would you feel in our situation?

[soundood]

Fair enough. You're an edge case though.

Most of the people in this situation are as described — certainly the ones who blight the lives of everyone who lives in my building. We pay an annual fee for a parking space, and have to contend with freeloaders who trespass on our land to avoid paying for parking elsewhere. Now, please tell them just to "ignore it, pay nothing, simples", and carry on regardless. How would you feel in our situation?

I think this is a fair point, I to, have residents parking here, and pay good honest cash for it.

there is very different types of this 'parking offence' out there, which need very different solutions.

I believe the council should enforce your parking, that way it would be enforceable, and you wouldn't have this issue. this is the way my residents parking is set up.

while you have these cowboys until recently clamping, and now sending out cowboy tickets, you are going to continue to have this problem, because people just don't take any notice of them.

[andymonkey]

"Quite frankly I would not for £60.00 bother to go through the potential hassle of courts but write to the company with a copy of the ticket and hope you can come to an arrangement."

I only wish it were that simple. These companies have no interest in coming to a fair agreement.

[scottbombedout]

I don't believe you, I really don't think you have the brains to go beyond a paragraph.

and welcome to my ignore list, ridicule that.

goodbye.

You are more than welcome.

Talking of brains, my initial reaction was that you are as dumb as a bag of rocks. Ridicule that.

[Seamaster73]

I think this is a fair point, I to, have residents parking here, and pay good honest cash for it. there is very different types of this 'parking offence' out there, which need very different solutions. I believe the council should enforce your parking, that way it would be enforceable, and you wouldn't have this issue. this is the way my residents parking is set up. while you have these cowboys until recently clamping, and now sending out cowboy tickets, you are going to continue to have this problem, because people just don't take any notice of them.

It's private land. The council has no role to play. The trespassers couldn't care less and the "cowboys", as you describe them, are doing the best job they can to help us in the only way possible. More power to them.

[PhilipK]

and while your at it, since you believe in them so much, you can go and troll through their site and show me evidence, that someone who has had a parking ticket from these extortionists, has had a CCJ or any other kind of repercussion.

No need - as you obviously too arrogant/stupid/self-important to read Post #86 in this thread, instead just pop around to my house and I'll show you my Court Papers. I have them right here.

Just because you are stupid enough to risk a CCJ, doesn't mean that you should advise others to take that risk.

[ralphy]

It’s not up to us to try and mind-read your posts and I’d be grateful if you don’t try to tell me what’s in mine: the point I made was that you stated you hadn’t written it (in response to Coops355’s post) when clearly you had.

Furthermore, I did not suggest Court proceedings: my comment was opinion on what would happen if it went to Court.

R

LOL. You don't think it will go to court BUT if it did, you (as a...erm....watch enthusiast) think he'll be OK.
Well that's that all cleared up then.....
And who appointed you the arbiter of right and wrong. If the poster wants to park and get invoices and not pay them, that's on him and frankly none of your business. You have no place attempting to chastise him for his choices especially when he's attempting to be more helpful that you have been.

Dear me, you do seem to have some difficulty in interpreting my written words.

So let’s try this:

1) I never made any comment as to whether I think it would go to Court or not - perhaps you would show me where you think I have?

2) I am not arbitrating what is right or wrong nor have I written anything that would suggest so. Can you show me what you have interpreted in my posts that make you think otherwise?

3) None of my business? I, like you, have responded to the OP’s opening post with my opinion. So no more or less my business than yours.

4) Attempting to chastise him? Once again, can you show me where I have done so as I am quite sure I haven’t posted anything of the like - but then I’m no mind-reader as to what you have interpreted to make you think so.

5) The poster is not being helpful (or unhelpful for that matter): he’s asking for help/advice...

... Any help will be appreciated

R