Assume it's common knowledge that the Swatch Group are stopping supplying parts to independent watch repairers - Christian at WatchGuy has posted about it here:
http://watchguy.co.uk/watchguy-surve...atch-industry/
Obviously that's not good news for independents, but will it have any effect on you? I have a small collection of vintage watches - although only one left that has an ETA movement which I will no longer be able to get serviced by the look of it. So for me it sounds like I won't be buying any more vintage pieces that have movements that originate from within the Swatch Group - which includes anything with an ETA in it. Feels a massive shame to me - just wondered what the opinions of the forum are.
N
Last edited by Neil.Ldn; 17th October 2015 at 13:25.
As you say, terrible news for the independent repairers or home tinkerers BUT it does seem to have invigorated the watch industry in terms of making movements in house, manufacturers becoming manufactures and companies becoming self reliant.
I have a couple of 7750s but not a lot else that this would affect.
Movement supply for new watches and parts supply for repair two separate issues. It's fine that the less-talented companies are being weaned off Swatch Group's tit as far as movement supply goes (though clone manufacturers are filling the void for casers, e.g., Sellita, Soprod, Spooginar...) but not supplying parts to independent watchmakers is indefensible and should rightly be condemned.Originally Posted by DB9yeti
Swatch Group are NOT STOPPING the supply spare parts to independents watchmakers They are stopping the supply of spare parts to wholesalers who make a pretty hefty profit when they pass that onto the Indy. From what I have read, a lot of people don't get this.... Independents have access to spare parts if they meet criteria (standard watchmaker tooling) from what I have read for example there are more than 100 Omega workshops (independent watchmakers!!!!) The survey appears biased by the fact that most people who take part are directed to it through Christian/watch guy website so are I assume existing customers.
On recommendation of this place, I rang Gleaves the other day to locate a half link for my Speedmaster Pro only to be told that Omega had cut off their supply of parts. They mentioned that Cousins were in the same position.
Ok I thought, lets try the official route and so I rang Leslie Davies, my nearest Omega AD to see what they could do, twice. They haven't bothered to reply.
Outstanding customer service.
As Jammt79 mentioned SWATCH are not stopping supplying parts to independents just those that are not accredited. We had our workshop go through the accreditation process last week which consists of a visit and a required list of tooling (which we had 99% of and just need to buy some model specific tools). In my opinion this ensures that if someone says they are qualified to work on your watch then you can be assured they have the right equipment and workshop to do it or else they won't be getting near parts. We hear a lot of horror stories of poorly executed repairs from people who claim to be able to work on Omega's, Longines, etc but don't have the right tools and equipments to do so. The accreditation process for the Richemont group is much more intense (bench tests for our watchmakers and brand specific training in Switzerland)
What surprised me though is when You ask the price of certain parts at the Omega Boutique it is substantially cheaper than either otto frei or Cousins UK. Hopefully they'll keep the price reasonably affordable...
Otto frei and Cousins UK have bumped up their prices massively, I think they are looking for one last big payday before they lose access to parts. I understand some independents frustrations but if it means more investment in proper workshops and tooling then this will only benefit watch owners.
I also found this to be true. I bought a strap and OEM deployant last year for less than what ofrei.com was charging.
Having said that, the Omega Boutique will not be of help if you want to swap your Speedmaster dial to a different version or put a different bezel on your Bond Seamaster. They look to be following the Rolex method of only working on a watch if it is as it left the factory.
I think Omega refused to deal with any franken watch as a rule to avoid any further damaged on the watch itself... I'm not saying that a franken watch or modified watch is damaged... They just want to stay or keep it into Original so they can't be blamed if something goes wrong due to the modified parts or parts that is not factory design for that specific watch. Same goes with a Car. One it is touch by independent garage within factory warranty then You might loose Your warranty too...
More to it than I thought then - thanks for filling in the gaps people.
N
Your website says you're still in the process of gaining accreditation for Richemont Group. Assuming you haven't yet got it, or hadn't when your website was last updated, does that mean you were incapable of fixing an ETA 2000 based Cartier because you didn't have the correct training in, what-taking a Tank case apart? Of course not. If Swatch group decide that they want certain calibers/models sent to Switzerland/Southampton instead of being serviced by you, does that magically mean that you have lost the ability to service them even though you could do it just fine the week before? Again, of course not. You aren't Rolex accredited, does this mean you lack the ability to service my Rolexes?
There are horror stories of people suffering poorly executed repairs to their BMW's and Audi's by dodgy independents, but that isn't an argument for closing the free market. Taking your watch/car to an approved dealership means you know what standard and price you can expect, which is great for the majority. But closing down parts supply to independent specialists is simply trying to control the market.
Indeed it will probably lead to more poorly repaired watches as customers unwilling to pay franchise prices for a service will still be taking their watches to independents, it's just that the independents won't be able to replace worn parts with the same regularity. It has nothing to do with quality and everything about maintaining a cartel.
I hope that doesn't sound too personal, it isn't and you can't fault a small business for doing what it must to survive/thrive, but I totally disagree with the Swiss watch companies having anything but their own interests at heart.
Last edited by glazba; 19th October 2015 at 09:36.
Thanks for taking the time to get back to me, and you make some very good points.
I agree to a certain extent with what you are saying, especially regarding our ability to service watches whether we are accredited or not (which is the case for Rolex) but because we are accredited does not make us a franchise and the manufacturers have no power over how we set our prices. I think it is extremely unfortunate for smaller independents who cannot afford the required tooling and machine list to be deprived of parts and I believe a standardised list should be put in place which is a lot more affordable. (a lot of the list contains brand specific tooling when generic tools do the job just as well) But I also believe there is nothing wrong with having an accreditation system in place which assures people that the watchmaker who is working on your watch has been properly trained, has the required tooling and the repair is taking place in a proper environment. From a personal point of view it is frustrating to miss out on repairs to someone who has not invested the time and money in the proper training and workshop which we have done for the sole reason as to offer the best service possible for our customers.
Nothing taken personally at all my friend, just a good discussion and one that people feel very strongly about.
My regular watchmaker isn't Omega certified.
It is just too expensive. They demand of him that he (among other things) buys a special cleaner with 4 cups to clean movement parts instead of the 3 cup machine he has.
The approx 25.000 € he has to invest is more than he is willing to spend just to be able to get more acces to Omega's parts.
Somehow I don't think this is a good development. Checking the technical ability of repairers: fine with me, making people spend a fortune isn't.
I found this interesting.
Comments on the ETA situation start around half way down
http://nickhacko.blogspot.co.uk/2015...smart.html?m=1
I agree completely, if you were to see the required tooling list it would shock you, almost 5 pages long with different tools for Omega, Rado, Longines etc all doing the same thing. I think it will only increase the grey market for parts.
So some brands allow independents to qualify for servicing by conforming to certain requirements ... whilst others simply force you down the road to a more expensive AD.
Omega give the customer a choice ... which is better for us ... but costly for independents ... is that what we're saying?
- Shame the requirements aren't consistent across brands ... I can imagine how infuriating that must be.
The Swiss don't really want to give you any choice. That you have any is a necessary evil as far as they're concerned.
They all do it to some degree or another, but Omega last year (I think) sent a letter to watchmakers telling them that if they wanted parts they had to meet a bunch of requirements (namely- buy a bunch of stuff, even if what you already have is perfectly adequate.). Someone may have a copy online, I only got to read it and didn't think to take a photograph at the time. Even STS, who have been doing Omega since God knows when and have doubtless invested a great deal have goalposts moved and hoops to jump through:
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...e-vintage-cals
The end game for them (the big groups) is ending, or at the least having absolute control over, competition from independent watchmakers. The only ones left in a few years will be the ones "allowed" to exist, and the criterea for who's business lives and who's dies will be viewed from the POV of what is best for Swiss control, not the customer. If you read the link above by the Aussie guy, Rolex have basically put every indy Rolex watchmaker in the country. That's all about what's good for Rolex and nothing about what's god for the customer.
A similar war has been raging in the EU for years over the rights to spare car parts for Indy garages (the Right to Repair campaign), but the watch industry is too small and the independents largely too vulnerable to rock the boat.
All IMO of course.
How does this affect non-swatch group brands that have ETA movements inside them?
I gather Swatch will still be providing parts to the likes of Sinn, Stowa and even Tag Heuer or Tudor?
If you send your Stowa with an ETA movement to an accredited independent will they still have access to standard ETA parts for servicing?
If something is costly for independents, it will be costly for customers as doing business is about recouping your investment plus making a reasonable profit.
This seems to me like something just engineered to pester the local independent out of business.
25k €-ish for stuff similar to the tools the watchmakers already have equals lots and lots of watches serviced...
I have seen the list of tooling and as cleaning machines go they require ultrasonic bath in at least 1 jar. If your independent has this in the three jar machine then great. What they did ask was that the environment be a healthy one. They requested extraction from me, which I was happy to do. I did argue it a little but they said that they wanted to make sure that the days of watchmakers keeling over from breathing in fluids all day from the machine sat next to them were over. The standard tooling to be accredited by Omega is approx 4K. That means I have to service 20 Seamasters to get my return on investment. As I am Omega accredited, my parts spend has dramatically reduced (buying from Swatch is far cheaper than wholesaler) increasing my margin, I am on the omega website and I have more work sent to me as a result!
Great, but my watchmaker - 3th generation with 30 yrs experience - had to buy a 4 cup cleaning machine and fork out much more to be able to get certified for my DeVille chronometer (co axial). Instead he told me to go to an old friend of his who got Omega certified when the need arises (the DeVille was recently serviced, so no need at the moment).
Then it sounds as though the watchmaker didn't have the tooling needed, which is a shame. I have to say though it is all pretty standard. It's only the brand specific stuff they push you on. I had everything and none of it was brand new or purchased just for them. I invested in it because it does a good job consistently. I know a of guys who pass who have 20 year old machines. The funny thing is omega don't test your machine they test the cleanliness of the fluids....
Here's a hypothetical question for J Vincent and the other accredited watchmakers on here. Say I've just spent the last couple of years doing the WOSTEP course and rather than pursuing employment via Swatch Group or whatever I've decided to go it on my own. How much would I need to invest in tooling starting from scratch to become accredited for my own set up, ignoring other costs such as rent, rates, business insurance etc?
Last edited by Dynam0humm; 20th October 2015 at 02:59.
Funny thing is that Omega don't test beforehand.
They test only a part of the repairers. The repairers have to sign a contract stipulating they have the prescribed tools and machines. If it turns out they don't, that is breach of contract.
This guy has a lot of tools and works on Breguets, Pateks etc. as well as more regular watches.
He specifically told me he wasn't upgrading at a ca. 25k € price to gain acces to Omega parts.
He can source a lot of stuff, but for instance the Co-Axial parts are hard to obtain. Since a former study buddy of him is Omega qualified, he referred me to that guy.
From absolutely nothing £50-75k. But you could open a workshop on £2k and work on most Omega watches without issue. Then work hard and save till you have most of the equipment.
I would imagine some 70-80% of Omega parts account holders are workshops with two or more repairers.
Cry us a river. Sounds like it's retirement time for that watchmaker, tbh.
A watch repairer doesn't meet Omega requirements, so doesn't get Omega accreditation
What's the problem?
I see it as a good thing, right tools for the job, competent watch guy = good service and maintains the manufacturer's reputation (hopefully)
The thing is Swatch is a business at the end of the day and they have a great product (ie ETA Movements), why should they share that with anyone else anyway? I don't own any ETA watches, but as DB9Yeti has mentioned, it has reinvograted the industry with watch brands finally making their own movements or going back to making their own movements. Whilst this has definately led to increased prices and its not all positive, I still find it a good thing that my IWC, or Panerai wont have the same movement and will have movements that are built and look different, but also exclusive.
That they check competency isn't an issue. The fact that you have to buy a sh*tload of tools and machines to get the accreditation, while you have more than enough tools - proper tools - to do the job is. This guy turns new parts on his - very old - lathe, which is in his family for ages. His competence isn't the question.
It is the fact that Swiss companies use their position to make watchmakers buy their tools / machines at very high prices and through this manage to make servicing more expensive that I find astonishing.
Thanks for the reply Dom. So you spend upwards of £50k to gain Omega accreditation, which then gives you access to the parts supply and you can charge say £40 per hour for your time on the bench.
Alternatively, the budding watchmaker may say screw that, I'll learn how to fix cars instead, spend £10k setting up a workshop and then charge £40 per hour labour with no restrictions on parts supply for any brand he works on, no workshop inspections and no need for occasional trips to Switzerland for product and training updates.
I can see why the independent watchmaking trade has been in decline for many years now and I can see a future where all premium brands have to go back to the factory for a service. I'm sure that will suit the manufacturers just fine as they benefit from the increased revenues.
As for the non-accredited independents or amateur/hobbyist watchmakers such as myself, we'll just have to use generic parts like what already exists for Rolex, or Selita and Soprod parts for ETA based calibres. It may not be ideal from the customers point of view, but then he wont be paying £150+ to have a 2824 serviced. It may even benefit the true independents in the long run.
I am still expecting improvements in 3d imaging and printing to give the Swiss a hard time in the foreseable future.
That might become the next "quartz-crisis" for them: the possibility to easily and cheaply make detailed parts without needing to go back to the original producers.
What a borderline stupid comment.
Who would be idiotic enough to get accredited for every brand and invest a fortune in the process?
Not a guy with a decent jewellery business with 2 watch and clock repairers.
Why?
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Hi Bernard, I think the point I was trying to make is that if you have a workshop already then Omega are not trying to flog you any machines that a modern workshop wouldn't already have. Just the tools to hold and handle there specific models. Omega have coaxial adjusting tools and holders to check the escapement as well as casing tools for some of their specific cases. They don't tell me what I can and can't charge and they don't tell me I have to hold a minimum amount of spare parts. In honesty compared to the other Swiss watch brands they are really fair in my opinion.
I'm mostly talking about Omega but the same applies to Swatch in general.
They don't care one iota about whether you can afford to become accredited or not. They obviously feel their brand has the strength to stand up on its own now. They're doing this purely to strengthen the exclusivity of the brand(s) and ultimately to make more money during their progression towards becoming a true rival for Rolex or Apple (whichever one they are trying to emulate).
It's brand control/power. Ultimately I think it's the right move for them. I don't like it because I remember not so long ago when they would supply little bags of parts to anyone and everyone. They're not interested in a market who cares about such things, most people they want to sell to don't.
Over the last few years there has been a steady stream of scathing reports of their own in house service centre. They're some way off becoming a rival for Rolex in my view.
Interested to see what happens a few years down the line.
Fair reply and a bit of balance is a good thing !! . The whole 3D printing issue is an interesting one if eventually parts can simple be printed then as mentioned before monopolys on repair and service will cease ... However the effect on manufacturers of quality watches remains to be seen !!
I thought 3D printing was in plastic resin, I think we are a very long way off from 3D printing in steel or ceramic.
It does lead to a copywrite / patent issue though, would the parts be copy pattern parts or fake?
So did I, until I visited Manchester Science Museum with my nieces. They have some very interesting 3D printing applications including a titanium mountain bike frame, aerospace components and even seamless fabric clothing. Now the industrial applications are kicking in 3D printing looks VERY exciting.
Ant
As others have said, people applying for accounts will already have most of the tools.
Omega want money spent on things like proper extraction for fumes, separate rooms for polishing, making sure parts come out super clean, oiling up to spec etc.
Now if you are charging £40 an hour you are either a very slow watchmaker or charging way too little!
A well thought out comment. I have been told however (perhaps this is a difference between the UK and the Netherlands) that my watchmaker had to buy the specific cleaning machine and tools Omega wants him to buy.
It is not about buying additional tools to work on a specific movement with specific needs, but the necessity to buy stuff watchmakers already have, but from other brands/with marginal differences.
They also have a list of which movements they want you to send back to Switzerland.
Beyond Omega though (whose 8500 parts have never been on the open market to my knowledge), I think the real issue is all the 7750's, 2824's & 2892's out there which are bread & butter stuff for watchmakers and have been for decades.
It's not impossible that someone like Sellita might step in to fill the gap, as there'll certainly still be a market for common wear items like reversers and stems, but reducing market choice in repair options serves no consumer interest IMO.
When did Apple start making watches?
Unless you're talking about this one ...
^^^^
Smart little watch that, never seen one of those before :)
I guess I was making a reference to the way Apple have always cleverly forced everything "in house" with their products and services.
More info here
http://www.macrumors.com/2014/12/11/1995-apple-watch/
I understand what you mean, but most of the parts in iDevices are actually Samsung and put together by Foxconn in China, so I'm not sure they qualify for 'in-house' any more than a 'swiss watch' built in China or wherever and finished in Switzerland
That's what I want to know.
I guess it will depend on the maker?
The Swiss watches I own are either Sinn, Glycine or Hamilton. Obviously the Hamilton can go back to swatch if I want. Sinn and Glycine might conceivably in the future no longer be able to service watches they made with ETA movements, in which case I'd be looking for an accredited independent.
Thanks for the link :)
I'm sure Omega use some of the same suppliers as Rolex and other non Swatch manufacturers for raw materials. I was referring to the way Apple, whereever possible, restrict compatibility, parts supply and software, although recently I have been able to use google docs quite happily on my IPad.
Raw materials such as steel, brass and precious metals? Rolex makes almost everything in-house starting from scratch. Conversely, Omega extensively uses ready-made components sourced from, among others, ETA and Chinese manufacturing. In that sense, I suppose they do have some similarities to Apple's model.
That's correct, I meant raw materials such as gold etc. I know Omega use components sourced from others whilst Rolex manufacture everything down to their Cerachrom in house. I was likening Swatch to Apple because of the restrictions they are putting in place but also a good point you have raised about the manufacturing 👍
I think what I'm trying to say is that this whole saga and faffing around from Swatch smacks of bad management and penny pinching in the wrong areas.
You buy a new Rolex, they do things properly, by and large always have.
You buy a new Omega, they don't.
Last edited by TimeOut; 21st October 2015 at 15:51.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
