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It says Swiss made on the dials :roll:
And to answer you question, yes, it would bother me, because it says "Swiss Made" on the dial.
Cheers,
Daddel.
Just been googling for my Traser Commander. Came across a post on Watchuseek forum where someone was interested in replacing the quartz movement for a mechanical one. They contacted Traser aka microtec which prompted this reply -
Thank you for your inquiry.
Unfortunately, our Commander watch is not sized to hold an automatic movement. For the record, our automatic watches use an ETA 2824-2 movement.
Please also note that mb-microtec does not make the Ball watches; they purchase the lights from our company in Switzerland, where we ship them to the Ball factory in China where they are made.
Good luck in finding your perfect watch!
Sincerely,
mb-microtec usa, Inc.
2930 Domingo Ave; #159
Berkeley CA 94705
T: 1-510-479-7523
http://www.traserusa.com
http://www.mbmicrotec.com
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f7/auto...er-424533.html
This may not be true and not knocking Ball. However if it is current practice I wonder how many other firms with Head Quarters in Switzerland have assembly in China.
If the case would this affect your opinion of a brand ?
It says Swiss made on the dials :roll:
And to answer you question, yes, it would bother me, because it says "Swiss Made" on the dial.
Cheers,
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
:shock: Surely there must be some degree of misrepresentation here, though I do appreciate that the definition of Swiss made can be a little loose.
The dial may have been made in Switzerland!......but the complete watch may have been assembled anywhere and those Chinese do have small fingers which are great for making loads of things :wink: .
Ball watches are great quality, very well built, VFM etc, and I couldn't care less if they would be made in China.Originally Posted by P9CLY
But PLEASE, be honest about it.
Swiss parts, assembled in China would be the correct wording on the dial :)
Cheers,
Daddel.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
It might be just the dials that are put together in China, although I wouldn't be surprised if the cases and bracelets were made there.
I would be surprised if the watches were not assembled in Switzerland though.
Isn't there some sort of 'line' that you have to cross that means you can't use 'Swiss' on the dial - a percentage of parts or assembly?
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Offensive, even with the winkie :( :( :(
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______
Jim.
Wits made the same crack about the Japanese in the 1970s and the Swiss watch industry imploded in 1983, with more than 80 companies going out of business.P9CLY ... and those Chinese do have small fingers which are great for making loads of things ...
Now, most/many WIS think Grand Seikos and other high-end Japanese items are as good as, perhaps even better than, their Swiss equivalents.
Is it, therefore, reasonable to assume that industrial history is repeating itself, but just with a different nation?
Or will the Swiss be clever enough to continue their well established practice of parts & movements production & assembly in Vietnam, Malaysia and even China, and still be able to beat the fast improving Chinese watch industry in major markets worldwide?
Are things made in Switzerland?
Where is the rubber strap made for a Omega planet Ocean?
Where are the Omega Boxes made?
Where are Rolex Boxes made?
Where are Rolex bezel protector made?
Where are the booklet printed?
Panerai boxes are produced by a German company in China.
Where are Breitling Leather straps made? Rubber straps made?
Things are made all over the world, as long as the quality is there does it matter?
The Umbrella's fitted to a Rolls Royce Phanton are made in china, Body and Engine in germany.
Coil pack to a Bmw X5 petrol phase 1 are made in china.
Levis denim shirt made in Turkey.
Firetrap leather jacket made in Pakistan.
There are companys producing 75% of watch parts in China.
MOD are producing parts in china.
RR are producing parts in China.
Marvellous. I thought I was the only one that might be offended by that remark. Just let me finish my rye grass smoothie and I'll grab my handbag and fire up the outrage bus. :D.
Offensive, even with the winkie :( :( :(
.
Not many Nike trainers are made in the US.
Caucasians are just too damned tall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fIIqFpZdy0Marvellous. I thought I was the only one that might be offended by that remark. Just let me finish my rye grass smoothie and I'll grab my handbag and fire up the outrage bus. :D.
Offensive, even with the winkie :( :( :(
.
Under the current "Swiss Made" rules, the case, dial, hands and bracelet/strap can be sourced abroad, but the movement, assembly and inspection must be carried ouyt in Switzerland.
I seen no problem here.
The rules are only relevant when people abide by the rules :wink: . How would we know if they don't?
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
I've no idea where Balls are made, but if an expensive watch says that it's made in Switzerland, then by God I expect it to have been made in Switzerland - not assembled, not designed, not inspected. Made. In its entirety.
BTW I despise all companies taking advantage of [s:2m43mpyg]cheap[/s:2m43mpyg] slave labour in the Far East (especially when they do it on the sly), but that's a topic for the Pit.
Cheers :twisted:
Stern
Therein lies the issue - if there is no follow up/random audit and it relies on production of invoices/shipping proof then it will be easy to not abide by the rules.The rules are only relevant when people abide by the rules :wink: . How would we know if they don't?
Eddie
Doxa as an example (bring on the chinese audience gif).
I have to ask, how bothered are the Swiss?
An extract of the relevant legislation:-
Swiss watch
A watch is considered Swiss, according to the Swiss law if:
its movement is Swiss and,
its movement is cased up in Switzerland and;
the manufacturer carries out the final inspection in Switzerland
Swiss watch movement
A watch movement is considered Swiss if:
the movement has been assembled in Switzerland and,
the movement has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland and;
the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly.
If a watch movement is intended for export and will not be cased-up in Switzerland, but it otherwise meets the criteria to be considered a Swiss movement, the watch may say "Swiss Movement" but it may not say Swiss Made on the watch case or dial.
A watch that says "Swiss Quartz" is considered to be a proper Swiss watch. However, it is often improperly used by foreign manufacturers to merely indicate that the quartz movement is of Swiss origin.
The 50% Rule for Swiss Made Watches
Use of the Swiss Made label for watches is covered by an ordinance of the Federal Council dated 29 December 1971. The Swiss standard is often pejoratively referred to as the 50% Rule. However, it has its basis in real life economics. Again, the law merely sets forth a minimum standard. The famous or infamous Swiss Made Ordinance has, for a number of years, been subject to many criticisms, particularly inside the industry, because it is considered too lax, but also in legal circles, where the view is that it no longer fully meets the legal mandate specified in the companion law on trademarks (SR 232.11).
“It is not generally known that quite a few Swiss companies have watches assembled in China for export to North America, Asia and even Europe, where the brand name is more important that the “Swiss made” label. Such watches may consist of a Chinese case and a Chinese crystal, a Taiwan-made dial and metal bracelet and Japanese hands. If the movement is to be considered Swiss, 51% of its value must be Swiss and at least the last wheel must be added in Switzerland. Swiss watch brands without the “Swiss made” label are usually equipped with a Japanese movement. The “Swiss parts” label means that the movement is assembled in Asia using kits consisting at least partially of Swiss made components.”
From time to time namely in 2003 and more particularly in 2007, there are efforts made to strengthen the definition of "Swiss made." These efforts are normally spearheaded by the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry FH(FH) a trade organization.
A 1995 Amendment to the law
The Swiss federal Council modified the ordinance regulating the use of the "Swiss" name for watches in May 1995. The was said to bring the requirements of Swiss watchmaking industry a rubric like those of the European Union. In essence, the revision made it possible to affix indications of "Swiss made" on foreign watchcases and dials intended to equip Swiss watches.
A watch is considered Swiss whose movement is Swiss, whose movement is encased in Switzerland and whose final control by the manufacturer takes place in Switzerland. Conversely, the Swiss manufacturers of parts destin for foreign watches from then on were authorized to visibly indicate that their products come from Switzerland. These innovations were intended to improve the transparency as regards the source of products. Consumers were expected to clearly recognize from what countries the various constituent parts of the watches came. However, the revisions were not intended to reduce the protection the name "Swiss made". Indeed, the high requirements which are imposed with a Swiss watch were said to remain unchanged.
A Strengthening Effort in the Works
In 2007, the FH plans to seek political action on a proposal which introduces a new aspect to the definition of Swiss made, in the form of a value criterion.
Accordingly, any mechanical watch in which at least 80% of the production cost is attributable to operations carried out in Switzerland would be considered as a mechanical Swiss watch. For other watches, particularly electronic watches, this rate would be 60%. Technical construction and prototype development would moreover need to be carried out in Switzerland. Raw materials, precious stones and the battery would be excluded from the production cost. The Swiss movement in the existing ordinance already has a value criterion, namely the rate of 50%. Considering that here, too, the definition needs reinforcing, the draft amends these value criteria. For mechanical movements therefore, the rate would be at least 80% of the value of all constituent parts. For other movements, particularly electronic movements, this rate would be 60%. Technical construction and prototype development in Switzerland would also be a requirement in this case. The draft also stipulates other provisions concerning the definition of Swiss constituent parts and assembly in Switzerland.
Real Life Economics
The minimum rate of 60 % was not chosen at random: it corresponds to the rate used in the free-trade agreement between Switzerland and the European Union. In addition, with a rate of 80%, the FH proposes to lay particular emphasis on the mechanical watch. With these proposals, objectives in terms of protecting the Swiss Made label should be attained. The proposed criteria also take into account the place of manufacture and the origin of components, thereby complying with the law on trademarks which serves as the legal basis of the Swiss Made Ordinance. However, it will be up to the FH General Meeting to reach a final decision on the matter.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
If you Google "Swiss Made" there's oodles of posts to be read but, in a nutshell, that phrase is a Swiss standard which defines precisely what comprises a watch so marked.
Many Swiss movements and, presumably, watches are now assembled outside of Switzerland. For example, I recently bought an ISA 1198 quartz movement for about five bucks which turned out to have been assembled in China.
Why not go directly to the source for the information:
http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php
I have seen more conspiracy theories about the Swiss watch industry than about the JFK assasination and UFO cover ups combined :shock:
That is not the issue - the adherence and audit of compliance is :wink:
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
This is old news. Been the odd post here and there about Ball sourcing parts from China for years (well, at least since 2007). They still get over 15,000 movements COSC-certified per year, so they must be doing something right...
I think that most interesting question is: Why the Traser (USA) underlined that their competitor do watches in China?
For the record: I am rather sure that cases for Trasers (and Luminox) watches among many others comes from China.
"Swiss Made" means that you can order everything from China or where ever but "more than half value" of the movement (read rotor is enough) and assembly must be from and in Switzerland.
JP
I rekon they send the vials to China to be put on the dials (Hong Kong now China has been supplying the industry with dials, cases, hands, crowns etc..since the 50's) I'm sure they would assemble everything and test though in Switzerland to properly confirm to the Swiss Made regulations....
Almost no cases & bracelets are still made in Switzerland, they simply dont have the facilities any more...
One question is what do we define as a watch case or part. Some companies bring in raw forgings from China, and finsh machine them in Switzerland. Are these "watch cases", or what about the raw material itself? Does Rolex mine it's own ore in Switzerland, I doubt it. In this era of globalization can we say that anything is really made in one country?
My personal opinion is that if parts are finished and assembled in Swtzerland then what else can it be called? Here in America there are Toyota's built here, even BMW's, but are they considered American? Quite a few GM cars and trucks are built in Canada, and Dodge builds trucks in Mexico, we still call these American vehicles. And why do people get so worked up about it, there just watches for Christ's sake.
Probably becuase the same watch marked "Made in China" would sell for a pittance and people don't want to hear they're being lied to or taken advantage of :wink:
It is not about personal opinion, the legislation exists (and is exploited on occasions).
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Yes, Apple have a terrible time trying to sell their 'Made In China' stuff at a premium price. At least they are honest about where stuff is made.
In the past, to call a watch Swiss made, 60% of its value would have to come from Switzerland, that includes parts and labour.
Today, you only need 50% to call it Swiss made. So you could have all your parts made in China and assembled in China for up to 50% of the total cost of the watch, and still call it Swiss made.
All a bit too convenient for Swiss watch companies to argue the point and make up some vague unenforceable rules about how much can be made where. Yes we all appreciate a business has to be profitable, but this sly underhand deception is pretty vile imo. As mentioned, you dont see made in china and some in Switzerland on a dial....
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