Technically the best is the Seiko IMO. But I don't find the van der Klaauw boring at all.Originally Posted by TheDude
Last edited by lencoth; 14th November 2012 at 01:38.
Ok, so no let´s recapitulate what was obesrved by some above: A JLC, a Panerai and a VanderKlauw are óbviously no match for the Grand Seiko because they are boring shite.
Now as those quite respectable watches from highly valued and wis-revered brands, representative examples of european luxury watchmaking, are boring shite according to these mains stream traditional wis, then that sériously shakes the pillars under wis-dom.
That is wáy more serious than GS being awarded the title.
But it wasn't just between these four watches, was it?
AFAIK the four contenders were a shortlist drawn up from many more watches which entered the competition. I've been looking and I can't find a list of all of the entrants for this category anywhere on the web but I'm assuming it must be out there somewhere.
Over 100 watches, we are told, entered the competition through the six categories - so on that basis we can assume that they started off with around 16 or 17 watches in each category from which to finalise their shortlist of four.
So some of the brands mentioned in previous posts, like Zenith and Rolex, possibly (probably) did enter the competition. They just fell at the first hurdle and didn't make the shortlist.
If that's correct then it puts Seiko's achievement into some form of wider context.
Maybe the "it's only a Seiko" crowd will be a long time accepting the truth but the fact is that Seiko make some superb watches.
Love that GS although in that price bracket you could have entered the 'Snowflake' dial version which surely would have won by an even larger margin given the finish of the dial.
You might have a point and now having looked at the other contenders listed above in more detail, those are some pretty heavy weight pieces. Congrats again to GS for winning with a beautiful watch that is undeniably conservative and understated, but well conceived and exquisitely finished.
The fun thing is they taim to devaluate the win by GS by calling the other contestants obvious walkovers, whereas those are quite respectable representatives. That is like calling an olympic field of runners invalids so as not to praise the Ethiopian winner.
Again; these Jaeger LeCoultre, Panerai and VanderKlauw watches are hardly Diesel, DKNY and Fossil.
Read the write up on http://www.ablogtowatch.com/jaeger-l...nograph-watch/ and re-read the observatrions about walkover competition.
Now; is that JLC a piece to be appreciated or not?
If it is not, then traditional wis-dom is being silly.
If it is, then Seiko should be praised for winning and traditional wis-dom is being silly.
I don't think this would have even been close to winning, if the criteria was widened to included residual value when flipped.
The downside to the GS range is the lack of a service centre in the UK or Europe for that matter. Please correct me but do all the GS range need to go back to Japan for repair and servicing?
Ummmm......No?!?!
I think that's correct but my understanding is that you can arrange a service through Seiko UK and they'll organise transportation to Japan and any customs implications. I've no first hand experience of this so I stand to be corrected. Anyone out there know for sure?
Cheers,
Gary
It was confirmed on this forum by a tz-uk member that his GS SD had been serviced at Seiko UK.
Mechanical GS calibers are not so exotic in design that a competent watchmaker cannot service those. I would be véry surprised if Seiko UK would not be able to cope with it.
Even when they woúld send of something than the return time stíll is way better than anything sent to Switserland. The return times reported on SCWF are putting Swiss service to shame.
1. Can you back this up with residual values of Panerai, JLC, GP, Zenith to name but four?I don't think this would have even been close to winning, if the criteria was widened to included residual value when flipped.
2. We could also add cost of manufacture versus list price.
As it is, the GS was awarded top spot against some quite heavy weight contenders. The rest is sour grapes.
This is still my fav:
SBGR051
That's very good to know, thanks for the clarification Mr P. I'm not surprised to hear about the quick turnaround time either.
On a slight tangent. I know that aesthetics are, on the whole, completely subjective but at the recent Salon QP event the Grand Seiko exhibit was a breath of fresh air. In a gallery full of manufacturers desperately trying to be different with OTT designs and generally pointless complications, the GS stand was a little island of sanity. My flame suit is now firmly zipped up
Cheers,
Gary
No sour grapes at all, but I did notice you forgot to add your favourite bashing brand, Rolex to your residual question.
I've never had a JLC, GP or Zenith, but I'm sure that my Pam298 will out perform the Seiko every time when it comes to residuals, and that was my point, like many brands, they just don't hold their value well 2nd time around.
With respect CH most people buy a watch purely on merit, they really don't care about residuals in the slightest. It's only the serial flippers in this strange and small little WIS world of ours that treat them as investments. Watches are indeed an asset but only in that they're little pieces of magic on the wrist that happen to tell the time.
Cheers,
Gary
Last edited by Omegary; 14th November 2012 at 13:32.
You are beating the same drum again Cap.I don't think this would have even been close to winning, if the criteria was widened to included residual value when flipped.
I like watches you know, not investments.
It's a watch forum, not an investment forum...............
Daddel
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Exactly, Daddel.
And how do we know that residuals WERE NOT one of the criteria upon which they were judged? I haven't been seen a list of the judging criteria and I don't suppose for one minute that Capt Howdy has either. It's all very well making unsubtantiated comments to support a prejudiced viewpoint but I prefer the facts. The fact is simple. The Grand Seiko won.
The rest is, as has been pointed out, sour grapes and sniping speculation.
Well said, Daddel.
From what I read, even the SD are now serviced by Seiko UK themselves.
The oly reason why they were not from the start is that Seiko wanted to get max feedback from field info on how those calibers perform there. That was simply márketed in the guise of a need because of the great complexity and high skills required; selling the finger on the pulse as high tech qualities.
As it is:
- GS won.
- You can buy them in Europe.
- You can get them serviced faster and more affordable through the local AD.
- Residual value does not differ from other luxury watches in the same price bracket with only a very, véry few exceptions.
I'm with you on that. The resale value never comes in to my head when buying a watch, if I did my last 50 watches would all be Rolex subs, and that in it's self it a depressing thought.
Not once in my life have I ever bought a watch with a consideration of 'residuals'.
It was me that had the MM600 SD serviced by Seiko UK, in the UK. No issues at all.
But as has been said, as long as one can post to and receive from Seiko UK it doesn't matter where the watch goes.
Residuals of GS are no worse generally than JLC, Zenith, Panerai and most Rolex models. In fact i'd say they are better in many cases.
Thanks for the confirmations.
I'm a bit late reading this thread, but could I ask a question ...
What were the criterion for winning the award and was it open to all watches in a particular sector or were they short listed first and then voted on? The reason I ask is that I get pretty suspicious of any type of "awards" as if it's anything like Car of the Year (etc) then it just seems to jump around manufactures until everyone has had a turn to win. Given the general lack of innovation in the watch industry at large then surely GS is going to win this year on year until someone else trumps them with a better movement, harder case, better bracelet (or whatever the technical criterion was), if it's based on asthetics then surely it's worthless anyway as it's down to personal opinion?
I'm sure you're right Tony, perhaps I should have worded it around a lack of innovation in the bigger players that are entering these awards. I guess in some respects it's more difficult for the larger players to roll out new movements etc due to production costs / tooling / assembly lines etc whereas the smaller makers are a bit more "cottage industry" and can react quicker to incorporate new ideas.
Out of interest did any of the smaller more bespoke brands enter into the Euro Watch Awards or was it for the big boys only?
I'll have to get myself to SalonQP next year, couldn't make it this time around due to work commitments but it sounds like an interesting show to visit.
I thought seiko were usually banned from entering these kind of things, fear of them winning, it's not fair etc.
This competition was organised by an Horological Magazine not by the Swiss watch industry. So they couldn't do what they did a few years ago and say "well we would have opened up our watch competitions to the far east but we didn't have enough translators" (seriously!).
+1 the zenith is like a brightly coloured court jesters boot with a little bell on the end the seiko is a plain black slip on at a funeral.
I also found GS (and Nomos, and perhaps even B&R) stood out at Salon QP for showing genuinely wearable pieces. There were many works of art to gaze at in wonder, but I couldn't help feeling that you would look a wee bit daft wearing some of them, unless you genuinely were a professional time traveller and possibly Crown Prince of the whole of Europe. I found myself actually trying and considering GS - conservative for sure, but also suitable for daily use. Though my preferred variation wasn't there - this Japanese market quartz version. A controversial choice I'm sure, but it wears a little flatter, the crown guard gives it a bit of character, and the 10 sec/year accuracy means the blue second hand is more than just an ornament. I'm sure it won't be to everyone's taste (to put it mildly), but it strikes me as a refreshingly modern, low maintenance piece, and has gradually won me over. If anyone has any thoughts on how to pick one up for the best possible price I'd be interested.
Last edited by Itsguy; 15th November 2012 at 09:46.
I can only recommend that. I wear one as my alternate (with the EDP) beater, and yes I mean béater, on the farm.
It is all Grand Seiko right down to quartz engine. The 9F is GS perfection using modern technology. It is high end quartz rugged, tc exact and needs no maintenance. You get the extra functionality of this modern tech. at a heavy discount because there is no uplift for ´appreciation´.
Personally I prefer the no date version as it is even more essential time only as Seiko intended GS to be.
I have the black faced version of this and it's one of my favourites. They look great on a posh croc strap too.
I bought mine from Higuchi, but Seiya might be able to help too. Email them with the model number and ask for a price, then be prepared to add 20% for import tax (might not happen but normally does in my experience.)
I also found GS (and Nomos, and perhaps even B&R) stood out at Salon QP for showing genuinely wearable pieces. There were many works of art to gaze at in wonder, but I couldn't help feeling that you would look a wee bit daft wearing some of them, unless you genuinely were a professional time traveller and possibly Crown Prince of the whole of Europe. I found myself actually trying and considering GS - conservative for sure, but also suitable for daily use. Though my preferred variation wasn't there - this Japanese market quartz version. A controversial choice I'm sure, but it wears a little flatter, the crown guard gives it a bit of character, and the 10 sec/year accuracy means the blue second hand is more than just an ornament. I'm sure it won't be to everyone's taste (to put it mildly), but it strikes me as a refreshingly modern, low maintenance piece, and has gradually won me over. If anyone has any thoughts on how to pick one up for the best possible price I'd be interested.
Just to clarify, you will be charged import duty at approximately 3.5% (I say approximately because every classification of product which is imported into the UK has it's own unique import duty tarriff and these change more regularly that I can keep up with).
So you've now paid for the watch plus 3.5% (or so) in duty. Then VAT is charged at 20% on the whole amount, ie the watch plus the duty.
Could you post a photo of one with the strap you mention? I have the SBGR053 black face and would be interested to see what it might look like.
No you won't, in practice. :-) There is Customs Duty on watches at 4.5% (it was 4.5% when I last looked) BUT it is not in practice charged on single watch shipments. It is only charged in practice on multi watch shipments.
Reasons for this:
1) Customs Duty on watches is calculated at 4.5% on the watch or watches total value including postage but is only charged at a minimum amount of €0.30 per watch and at a maximum rate of €0.80 per watch. Thus a single watch worth, say, £1000 would only have the Sterling equivalent of €0.80 charged on it.
2) The Border Agency has a policy of only collecting Customs Duty if it amounts to £9 or more.
3) The combined result of items 1 and 2 above is that Customs Duty is never collected on single watch shipments. It would take a shipment of about 14 watches to rack up enough Customs Duty for it to be collected.
As you say, if Customs Duty is charged in practice then the VAT is calculated on the whole amount including Customs Duty.
Plus the clearing service.
I would have voted for JAEGER-LECOULTRE Deep Sea Chronograph
Good to know.
In the past my experiences are from importing single bass guitars (duty around 3.6%) and I have been hit with duty on both occasions. There's obviously no maximum rate per instrument and that must take the duty above the "collectable" threshold. I'd have happily paid 80p duty to bring in my $4,400 Roscoe bass from the manufacturers in North Carolina - as it was I got hit with what felt like a fine for not buying in Britain.
Thanks for the clarification.
Best I can do! One underexposed and the other from an iphone. The strap is a Hirsch London Alligator. It's very, very posh.
I would expect many memebrs of the forum to be interested in the smaller/indie brands but this thread has had no responses:
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...xhibition-2013
What makes you think thát???
Have you seen the group think ´realistic´ wish list(s), the photo thread subjects or what the postman brings?!
Furthermore those smaller/indie in general lack flippin´resale value.
Glad I have got this one!
I'm sure you have a nice watch, but I find it hard to see the difference with this modestly priced watch and the more expensive offerings.Glad I have got this one!
http://www.seiyajapan.com/product/S-...h-SARB033.html
I don't limit my expectations by attempting to keep them realistic. That would be stupidly limiting. And having lived in England for a couple of decades, I'm aware of the power of its cultural groupthink. But I'd expect there to be at least a few members who would be interested in the Geneva Time Exhibition. But not a single response to the thread even now. I plan to have fun on the day anyway.
Guess I should sell all my interesting watches, get a Rolex, and groupthink with the best of them.
Or maybe not.
Possibly because you are comparing pictures?I've had a SARB033 and have a SBGX061 and both the 'feel' and the looks are in completely different championships (the SARB being a great watch in its own rights).
Ok, I hear what your saying. I have handled some of the Spring Drive watches while over in Dublin, tbh I was completely underwhelmed at their price point, the GS Diver might be a different story though.Possibly because you are comparing pictures?
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
