Reply With QuoteI think in time we will refer to it as Government sanctioned manslaughter. Appalling.Originally Posted by learningtofly
I think in time we will refer to it as Government sanctioned manslaughter. Appalling.
Really?
Public Health England disagree.
“The PHE report was published the day after the prime minister’s former chief adviser, Dominic Cummings, criticised the government’s handling of the pandemic at a parliamentary select committee evidence session he addressed on 26 May.23 Among other accusations, Cummings questioned an assertion made at the time by England’s health secretary, Matt Hancock, that the government had “tried to throw a protective ring” around care homes.
The PHE report said its findings suggested that hospital associated seeding accounted for only a small proportion of all outbreaks in care homes. It said that from 30 January to 12 October 2020 it identified 43 398 (8.4%) care home residents who tested positive for covid-19 with laboratory confirmation, and death was reported in 34% (13 795).
This analysis identified 97 care home outbreaks (1.6%) from a total of 5882 outbreaks that were due to “hospital associated seeding,” involving 804 care home residents and 286 (2.1%) deaths.
Jenny Harries, chief executive of the UK Health Security Agency, said at a government covid press briefing last week that the study indicated that the policy of discharging hospital patients had had a limited impact on outbreaks in care homes. “This report showed that discharge from hospitals was actually a very, very tiny proportional cause of cases: 1.6% of all care home outbreaks,” she said.”
It’s true not everyone agrees with the report but even so would the figures be very different?
And are you saying that privately run care homes weren’t negligent at all in the way they were managed during the first part of the crisis?
I think “Government sanctioned manslaughter” is taking things a bit far.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Figures can be fabricated to show whatever the author wants to show, or, has been told to show, It happens and is very hard to disprove.
If one of these statistics was your Mother, Father, Grandmother, Grandfather etc etc and it was down to covid being introduced into the home they were in due to the above, the figures don't really matter, do they??
Well of course they would. But yes, the figures DO matter. Especially if it was wrongly attributed. Saying that looking at the figures means you are somehow uncaring is just a fudge. And is untrue.
Do you believe the figures that allegedly showed the government were at fault could have been fabricated as well?
Another view.....
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2334
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
It got rid of a load of those old expensive NHS users though didn’t it!
A good win for the Tory mismanaged service they keep trying to break up and sell off, makes it a little more profitable if you have less of those oldies to look after!
Did you read that on Twitter?
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
As per my other thread, I know first hand how bad covid can be, as well as the after effects, figures absolutely matter, but can be, and are, manipulated to show whatever the government want them to show, time and time again we have been far too slow to act, can Wales/Scotland and N. Ireland really be that wrong introducing more restrictions whilst we hide behind figures that are supposed to be available from today, then you have the fact that the vote to implement more restrictions has to go through both houses now, another smoke shield for Boris to hide behind and blame.
The Government has been at fault from day one, far too slow for the first wave, letting the general public use common sense, ( really ), not shutting the boarders quick enough, opening up last xmas for one day only for us to be hit with another wave, you couldn't make some of the decisions up, and this doesn't include the actions of some of his team or the xmas parties that were passed off as meetings, because, as his spokesperson said, they were wearing suits, lol!!!
The NHS has been under so much pressure for years and years due to top heavy management and monies being paid to people who quite obviously are not doing their job, ( I speak from personal experience here as I used to do property maintenance that included certain NHS buildings, it really would make your eyes water at prices they would pay for the simplest of jobs.) Now to have 2 years of covid on top of that without a great deal of help, no wonder people are walking away from their jobs, or, are off sick.
Anyway, figures do matter, but not manufactured ones.
Load of political gobbledygook.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I am sure you would agree if Corbyn.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or making a random comment because you don't agree with some, if not, all of it.
If it's the latter then please feel free to enlighten us with why you think it's "gobbledygook"
No thanks. I really can’t be bothered.
Last edited by oldoakknives; 27th December 2021 at 16:10.
No, just read the Tory policy manual!
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
G & D old chap, try to contain yourself.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Nah really it's not, the view from outside looking on has been woeful, particularly given how much we had going for us, we held all the cards you might even say...last decade the UK was a recognised major player in coordinating the international fight against SARS and MERS, doubtless a factor in the Johns Hopkins Uni research pre pandemic which had assessed GB as 1 of the 2 nations best able to respond and manage a pandemic.
There's a lot of questions in need of answers.
Last edited by Passenger; 27th December 2021 at 17:38.
No, really it is.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Well enjoy mate you're winning so that's that.
Happy New Year.
If anyone else is interested, there's a good article (and reasonably up to date) on the Economist website on how accurate reporting is across nations, using Excess Deaths as a measure.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...deaths-tracker
Obviously, some of this factors in the effects of not treating other conditions because of COVID.
It is interesting to see how some countries are mis-reporting (usually under, it seems) the number of deaths related to COVID.
The WHO and other, national, guidelines/standards mentioned earlier seem to be either misunderstood or deliberately misinterpreted in some countries. Many nations, too, have poor reporting methods.
Take it or leave it, I'm not making a pro or anti-vaccine point here, merely interested in the quality of reporting and this seems an interesting analysis of it (I found others, but many used data from early 2020).
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Ha ha! You are the one who keeps quoting it.
You are so sanctimonious and pathetic !
Just reminding you that it's the G and D as you seemed to have forgotten with your political rants, nothing sanctimonious about it. No doubt I could rely on you to do the same if I strayed too far.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Fascinating- and a link to this scientific evidence?
Because these folks disagree:
https://www.immunology.org/coronavir...ection-vaccine
Saying things like:
It's likely that for most people vaccination against COVID-19 will induce more effective and longer lasting immunity than that induced by natural infection with the virus.
Glad to see that your Google seems to be working again. I hope it wasn't an expensive fix?
As to the reported numbers - yes, excess deaths seems to be a far more accurate way of estimating the toll of the pandemic (at least for those interested in the truth). It ain't pretty.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Political rants? Ha ha you’re a funny old man!
2 weeks to flatten the curve...
Ah but it's so difficult to pick the right two weeks...
I appreciated your link and it led me elsewhere, hence my contribution, such as it is.
M
Sent from my ASUS_X00PD using Tapatalk
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
From the little I've seen of your posts it would appear you can't handle being challenged, I thought that was the idea of a forum, for people to air their views, but not to throw their toys out of the pram when challenged, guess I was wrong!!!
You didn't challenge anything just posted a load of political assertions and said you don't believe 'manufactured figures' which I took to mean any that didn't fit your narrative. So I'm not going to answer them because to do so would involve political arguments and this is the G & D. Go figure.
Last edited by oldoakknives; 28th December 2021 at 01:04.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
From what I said above:
I had covid in July and spent 10 days with a cpap mask wrapped around my face.
The figures are manipulated to suit the governments stance going forward.
The vote to get more restrictions have to go through both houses now, so takes the blame away from Boris and very unlikely to get anywhere.
Boris was way too slow to act when we first knew of Covid.
Releasing restrictions last xmas increased cases afterwards.
Xmas parties and wayward staff going to second homes during lockdown, or even testing their eyesight!!! Come on.
We all know about how the NHS is run and how much money is plundered
I thought most of the above was common knowledge???
You were wrong. It's a set of opinions.
How's the NHS doing at the moment in relation to Omicron and other pressures? New thread based on latest data. Note that we prefer to use number of Covid 19 patients in hospital, rather than new admissions, as two days more up to date and better represents the whole picture.
Trust leaders looking at the data very carefully. Number of patients with Covid 19 in English hospitals is definitely rising, but not precipitately so. Numbers accross country as a whole have risen by 27% in a week - comparing figures for 27th Dec (released today) to 20th Dec.
It's notable that we are now seeing growth in these numbers across the country, not just in London, as before. North West numbers up 38% in a week, East of England up 33% and Midlands up 23%. All comparing number of Covid hospital patients 20-27th Dec London Data, in particular, is important as it's been the epicentre of Omicron up to now. Number of Covid 19 patients in London Hospitals has grown by 45% from 20 Dec to 27 Dec. There's currently a 14 day doubling time (1360 on Dec 13 to 2640 on Dec 27) and daily growth rates over the last week have been, from the 20th, 9%,5%,7%,3%,8%,7% and 9%. Important to look at overall numbers as well as growth rates. 2640 Covid patients in London Hospitals versus 7917 in last January's peak (18/1/21) - a third of that peak. Equivalent figures for England as whole are 8474 patients in English hospitals today versus 34,336 in January peak (18/1/21) - 25% of that peak. So whilst numbers are growing, we are currently some way from number of hspitalised Covid patients in previous peaks.
Talking to trust Chief Executives this morning, what's very interesting is how many are talking about number of asymptomatic patientsbeing admitted to hospital for other reasons and then testing positive for Covid. Some are describing this as 'incidental covid'. Trusts, not at the moment, reporting large numbers of patients with severe Covid type respiratory problems needing critical care. Also not needing to massively increase the use of oxygen. Both which we saw in last Jan's Delta variant peak + very little critical care surge. We should therefore be cautios about over-interpreting current raw Covid admission data. As Covid community infection rate rises rapidly due to Omicron, we will get more cases of this incidental Covid 19 in hospital. Raw data does not distinguish between the two. Important to note that these cases will bring complications for hospital/community services as patients will need to be isolated to avoid cross infection and they will add to overall pressure. But these cases are, obviously, not the same as Covid driven serious respiratory illness.
In the words of one hospital Chief Executive in the South West this morning: "we've seen a 30% increase in Covid positive inpatient numbers compared to 7 days ago. But the largest proportion are incidental finding on admission, so Covid 19 is not the reason for admission. It's therefore important to look at the total number of patients admitted, not just the raw number of Covid patients admitted, particularly if they don't need full Covid care. For a Trust as a whole, overall admissions are no higher than they were 7 days ago."
We must, though, keep broader Omicron context in mind. We still don't know, and are unlikely to know for some time, whether we'll see large numbers of seriously ill older people in hospital as Omicron reaches the older population and effects of Xmas mixing work through. Frustrating as though it may be, we need more data before we can reach any firm conclusions on what the full risk from Omicron is. It's still far to early to say we don't need to worry about Omicron and hospitalisations as some are unhelpfully saying/implying.
We must also remember that, as a whole, the NHS remains under huge pressure. Trust leaders are telling us that, whilst they can cope with Covid caseloads, staff are at full stretch. Trusts also expect to come under greater pressure as they head into January.The current combination of staff absences, very busy urgent care pathway, planned care cases that can no longer be delayed and extending the booster campaign all bring significant pressure. Right across GP's, social care, ambulances,mental health and community services.
Striking how many Chief Executives are saying that, on current evidence, they think that Omicron related staff absences may be a greater challange than number of Omicron related severely ill patients they have to treat. Several trusts told me today that they're now at the point where they need to redploy staff to keep essential services going. If current trajectory in Covid staff absences is maintained, these pressures will grow significantly. In this contect even relatively small numbers of extra Covid cases will bring big difficulties.
Chief Executives incredibly grateful for commitment and proffesionalism of front line staff to cope with these pressures. At present, optimistic they can cope with current caseload. But worried about what may be coming. Preparing for the worst but hoping for the best.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Very interesting situation at the moment with respect to the difference in approach to restrictions between the four nations of the UK. The nightclubs are closed now in Scotland for at least three weeks for example whereas in England it's be careful, but party on.
Bit of a high stakes game this of course. If the NHS does get overwhelmed in England then the decision taken in England will look very incautious, but it works both ways - the hospitality industry in the devolved nations will be raging if England emerges from the winter peak relatively unscathed in a few weeks' time.
Feels a bit ridiculous having such different measures in place on different sides of such extremely porous borders, but then again - I remember a year ago when the tier system was in place and a pub in Tier 2 was in walking distance for some people in Tier 3.
In other news:
That's 61 times the likelihood of death from COVID if you're not vaccinated, compared to being triple-jabbed.
Pub owner on the BBC this morning still not happy because people aren't going out as much as hoped!Very interesting situation at the moment with respect to the difference in approach to restrictions between the four nations of the UK. The nightclubs are closed now in Scotland for at least three weeks for example whereas in England it's be careful, but party on.
Bit of a high stakes game this of course. If the NHS does get overwhelmed in England then the decision taken in England will look very incautious, but it works both ways - the hospitality industry in the devolved nations will be raging if England emerges from the winter peak relatively unscathed in a few weeks' time.
Feels a bit ridiculous having such different measures in place on different sides of such extremely porous borders, but then again - I remember a year ago when the tier system was in place and a pub in Tier 2 was in walking distance for some people in Tier 3.
In other news:
That's 61 times the likelihood of death from COVID if you're not vaccinated, compared to being triple-jabbed.
As for the vaccine figures...
Cue....
But...but...it's only experimental......but...but...people are dying from the vaccine.....but...but...a 'nurse' on Twitter said she wouldn't have it......
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Opinions/Comments/Assumptions, we can all call it different things but it happened, and is happening.
FACT I'm off to have some honey glazed ham new pots and pickles, might even have a pickled egg. ( Before you say it, that's another thread, lol ).
Okay.
Last edited by oldoakknives; 28th December 2021 at 14:30.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Whot?
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Sorry, but your answer to my first point has just about summed you up, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy, ( and I mean being hospitalised with covid, not just testing positive ), when he can't physically get air into your lungs and the only thing that's keeping you alive is a forced air mask, and some very powerful drugs then that brings it home to you, so yes, my opinions maybe stronger/different than others, but I am not going to apologise for that, but at the same time I certainly wouldn't make comments like you have above.
Did you seriously mean what you wrote?????
I live in Scotland which is a tenth of the population of England and throughout this pandemic we have, give or take, had 10% of the positive cases whether we have harsher restrictions or not. We have had the passport for a few months now which was meant to control the spread, we still have 10% of cases.Very interesting situation at the moment with respect to the difference in approach to restrictions between the four nations of the UK. The nightclubs are closed now in Scotland for at least three weeks for example whereas in England it's be careful, but party on.
Bit of a high stakes game this of course. If the NHS does get overwhelmed in England then the decision taken in England will look very incautious, but it works both ways - the hospitality industry in the devolved nations will be raging if England emerges from the winter peak relatively unscathed in a few weeks' time.
Feels a bit ridiculous having such different measures in place on different sides of such extremely porous borders, but then again - I remember a year ago when the tier system was in place and a pub in Tier 2 was in walking distance for some people in Tier 3.
In other news:
That's 61 times the likelihood of death from COVID if you're not vaccinated, compared to being triple-jabbed.
I misread your post, I thought you had misspelled 'crap mask' not cpap mask. So apologies for that.
The rest of my post stands.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Calm down dear.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Everybody else's fault again?
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Ermm no, I admitted it was my mistake and apologised.
Perhaps you missed that.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
got covid , christmas day !i am 66 been fu*ked since, happy new year , LOL
Sorry to hear that. Take care.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Good health, Mitch.
Wishing you all the best Mitch.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
There’s a lot of anger about
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