Reply With QuotePetrol and diesel fueled power stations of course!
So...assuming EV's take off properly as planned....how are we going to produce the power required to charge them?
32A for us plebs and the 50A fast charge for those with the bigger wallets
Given that there's in excess of 30,000,000 cars excluding commercials etc...I reckon'we are going to need a bigger boat'
The National Grid is incapable of producing that much extra power over and above their normal supply.
Therefore....hands up everyone who wants a power station in their back yard.
Last edited by Tifa; 18th August 2021 at 01:48.
Petrol and diesel fueled power stations of course!
Makes perfect sense.Originally Posted by hogthrob
Basically, we need another 5 nuclear power stations to meet the demand. Due to our incompetent goverments the reality is we'll end up importing the power from Europe.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
https://www.rolls-royce.com/innovati...eactors.aspx#/
Sent through the ether by diddling with radio waves
Presumably papers have been published on this and plans are in place.
If not, that is a serious oversight by successive governments. Unless they feel that another option - hydrogen splitters, solar (discounted by Musk on the car itself) etc may become the preferred option.
Or it doesn't have to be EV, there are some interesting alternatives in the wings:
https://t.co/Yk94BR1jnU?amp=1
https://matthey.com/en/markets/energ...orage/hydrogen
Sent through the ether by diddling with radio waves
Are they, you should get onto them and let them know, they seem confident in this interview...
The infrastructure is going to fail, at the moment there are three electric cars in the road where I live, so that's 21kw ish, and well over 100 ice cars, , if you reverse the numbers you are nearly up to a megawatt, and that's just one street.
Obviously the roll out and implementation of smart meters will enable throttling as well as providing the method to tax electricity used for vehicles, if people think the running costs are going to remain this low for long they are naïve. My wife charges her car at work for free, it wont be long before the revenue catch up with this missed opportunity.
Piss in the ocean compared to the never ending developing going on and substation after substation being added.
Lots of micro renewables coming on line everywhere ie solar on every roof
Add the push to move away from the gas boiler to electric equivalent to any demand calculations and the picture becomes even more concerning...
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There's an interesting story on the BBC website about the number of cars on the roads and the lack of space for them:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56748346
'...the average car is 28% bigger than it was in 1965.'
I'm a massive fan of the BMW i3, a car that I believe has lost BMW a phenomenal amount of money. It reminds me of the NSX, in that case the problem was a power limit of 280bhp, in the BMW's case, weight. It's lightweight and very clever, with thin tyres (tyre particulates are the enemy now, and the smaller the tyre and lighter the car the fewer particulates it produces).
The easiest way to make an electric car has been to stuff it all into an SUV that has the space to accommodate the extra gubbins and the running gear strong enough for the extra weight. Manufacturers love them because almost everyone wants to drive a massive SUV and now they're electric they're presumably considered to be guilt-free. City cars are being regulated away (something to do with the efficiency of engines being based on the amount of weight they have to lug around: engine A in a 1,000kg car = bad, engine A in a 2,000kg car = good) and unless manufacturers like Toyota continue to make small cars and subsidise them from sales of larger cars, buyers will be forced into larger cars they don't necessarily need. City cars already make manufacturers no money, the bigger and more expensive the car, the bigger profit, especially with optional extras.
The biggest and most glaring issue with SUVs is they're significantly less efficient - from the building process to fuel - than smaller and lighter cars, and pollute more from energy consumption and tyre particulates. With the loss of revenue from petrol sales, I can see taxation coming in on charging cars. I wonder too if SUVs will be shunned by the next generations as bloated, irrelevant and inefficient. Could we see a tax on car size and weight? If there are going to be more cars on the road trying to fit in the same amount of space, if tyre particulates are causing all the damage now from the actual driving of cars (instead of exhaust fumes) and if electricity is limited and it takes 30% more of it to drive a 2.5 ton SUV the same distance as a 1.5 ton car, could we see a massive change in how cars are built?
"A man of little significance"
Obviously it’s going to be taxed at some point as the treasury will need to recoup its lost ICE revenue, I don’t think anyone is disputing that.
With regards to charging, a 200 mile range car will need charging on average once per week for about eight hours (assuming 10,000 mile per annum average). So your hundred cars will average out at less than five cars charging at any one time.
Imagine all hundred cars turning up at the petrol station at the same time, that’s the equivalent of what you are suggesting. It doesn’t happen.
I've felt like this for decades. Many others have, too.
And it's not just because there seems to be an inverse correlation with driving ability (cf. threads on which cars are stuck in hedges after light snow).
If a car has been used for 4 days and has 40 miles range, it will most likely get charged that night or beforehand. Even if someone only has a short commute, range anxiety will kick in. Also needed for any unexpected journeys. In reality, these will be charged far more often than visiting the petrol station
I suppose that when the first fossil fuelled cars started to be adopted en-masse people might have been asking the question ‘where will all the petrol come from when everybody has one?’. It was built, same as anything we need.
National Grid seem to think we’re good, micro generation is growing all the time, as is offshore wind power, and the ‘when’ a car can be charged is easily manageable to smooth peaks as is vehicle to grid tech.
I think we worry too much about this, and not enough about the damage caused by carrying on as we are.
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories...ehicles-busted
Find a petrol station that doesn't serve far more than 100 cars per day, look I used the 100 as an example,
That they will but generally overnight when demand is lower, the aim of the smart connection on the charger is not just for taxing the electricity but to understand demand and eventually manage scheduling so we don’t have millions of cars all charge at 00:01.
Add to the mix that many current cars don’t charge beyond 80% by default and folk getting used to and trusting the range more and I believe the charging issue isn’t as significant as some believe.
Ultimately many of us here are closer to the end of our driving career that the beginning and it the younger generations that will see self driving shared ‘ownership’ ev’s as the norm.
Would that be the case still if they started their driving day every day with a full tank ?
It will need to be charged fully once per week (about eight hours). Whether this is one continuous charge of eight hours or eight, one hour charges is largely irrelevant.
I appreciate that but your suggestion that they all charge up at the same time is equivalent to having all 10” cars turn up at the petrol station at the same time. A station with 6-10 pumps can’t fill up 100 cars at once.
As I pointed out, 100 cars charging is, on average, five stars a time. It’s as likely they they’ll all be charging at the same time as it is that all 100 cars will be at the same petrol station at the same time.
Depending on the thermal efficiency of diesel power stations, this might make sense.
Taxation is probably the only way there'll be a sudden swing away from the damned things.
Men think they improve their virility and women believe they're safer (Sweeping generalisation, I know, but true enough of a significant proportion to make up the bulk of sales).
Of course, while the government bang on about how they're saving the planet, they're remarkably coy about where the power is coming from and how all that lost tax revenue is to be recouped - Rest assured there's a nasty surprise coming for us all...
The point about 100 cars all needing petrol at the same time is a fair one, although it doesn't take into account the fact that electric cars take far longer to charge than ICE cars do to refuel. It would be more akin to 25 cars turning up at once and few petrol forecourts can easily cope with that. Certainly, the current charging capacity can't.
Obviously, early adopters are keen to bang the EV drum, they're currently cheap to run (especially if you can charge at home), subsidised to buy and rather cool, but when they're not 0-60 in 3 second dragsters and people are queuing for the fast chargers because there aren't enough, half don't work and a large percentage of the population don't have access to a location to charge at home, it won't seem so rosy.
Unless those issues are addressed in the next 4-5 years, it's not going to be a utopian future for EV owners (and I'm sure ICE owners will be taxed off the road as soon as possible) and I don't see any signs that anyone is really addressing it.
Take the opening of the Tesla network to all EV owners. Yes, it'll help some non-Tesla owners, but it'll massively increase demand on the Tesla network meaning Tesla owners will lose their advantage and, quite probably, the network will become (even?) less reliable as it is used more heavily.
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
If TZ-UK was around in the early twentieth century, I could picture exactly the same discussions about ICE vehicles.
Range too short, I’ll stick with my horse
No roads between towns, I’ll stick with my horse
Nowhere to buy petrol, I’ll stick with my horse
Nowhere to park, I’ll stick with my horse
Not enough petrol shops....
Not enough petrol in the world...
Not enough refineries....
Not enough oil Wells...
Not enough....
Oh, and you know that the government are going to start taxing you right?
Must go, the Luddites convention starts in an hour!
But but that’s so unfair, you are asking me to adapt and modify my behaviour in the face of new technologies and very possibly accept a small amount of personal inconvenience from time to time as infrastructure develops, improves and becomes commonplace, well I’m just not having it…
I didn’t get where I am today by embracing new technologies like email, social media and smartphones…
If early adopters are ‘banging a drum’ (and after 7 years I’m not really one of those) it’s because there is so much misinformation out there. I like to answer questions people have, but ultimately I don’t really care what car anybody drives. I like and appreciate cars of all sorts, including EVs. And yes, if I couldn’t make one fit around my life if it changed, I’d go back to a fossil car, albeit reluctantly, if needs dictated it.
They might be slightly cheaper to run, but they’re not cheaper to buy, and the subsidy thing is overdone as well. Cars over £35k no longer attract a grant, my wife’s Tesla didn’t get one, if I’d purchased my current EV today and not last November it wouldn’t have got one either. The modest subsidy on purchase for those cars still eligible will go soon I think.
It’s already been mentioned, but the charging for on street vehicles is coming, as well as fuel station like charging hubs such as the Gridserve one in Braintree.
It might be a surprise to some, but even the Tesla network gets congested and it isn’t as big and far reaching as people think. You can quite easily join a queue at a Tesla hub, but what Tesla do right is the cars remind people to move when charged and there are punitive overstay fees if you block a charger.
The revenue gained from opening up the Tesla network to other cars will fund more of them, which will benefit Tesla owners as well as everybody else who owns an EV.
I’m not sure people need to panic, people will be able to buy a brand new ICE car for over a decade yet, if that’s their choice. Who knows, maybe Covid 29 will have us all in a box by then anyway!
Last edited by Tooks; 18th August 2021 at 11:40.
Love these posts.
If only all challenging topics could be handled with a bit of humour, some of us might contribute more.
I’m probably going to get laughed at for asking this question but that’s ok. I’ll admit to knowing zero about electricity generation/watts/amps and all the rest of it.
Is it possible if someone wished to do so, to charge an electric car sufficiently off a diesel generator? And if so, would a generator run off red diesel be cheaper than connecting to the mains?
It’s not something I’m contemplating, just a thought that went through my mind.
An EV could be charged from a diesel generator but I doubt that it would be cheaper than grid electricity.
It’s possible and I believe some recovery firms have them but generally only enough ‘juice’ to get you to a pukka charger
https://www.rac.co.uk/innovation/ev-boost
Jay, I believe the best approach would be to connect the car to a hydro-electric generator that's being run by solar powered wind turbines.
OK and serious answer, yes you can but it's sub-optimal from an environmental POV.
I see neighbours, who no doubt think they are saving the planet one journey at a time, arrive home from their daily 5 mile round trip to the supermarket or lunch outing & immediately plug in the car to the charger. I assume that's range anxiety?
______
Jim.
That’s how you should do it. It doesn’t mean it’’s charging, it’’ll be set to charge automatically when it’s off peak. On some tariffs it’s 5p per kw between 00.30-4.30. It’s best to take shorter charges often and keep the battery between 80-20% for daily use and only 100% when you’re going to a trip.
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It’s not where’s the power is coming from it’s where the lithium for the batteries is coming from?
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Afghanistan.
I work for a company due to provide the driving test for autonomous vehicles and used to work for the UK government on EV technology.
The problem with precious metals and the supply chain is well known. We are currently dependant on these materials which are scarce and often mined by children in horrible conditions. However big money is being spent on trying to find new compounds that will replace these materials whilst also being better at their job and energy efficient. Some great work is being undertaken by our academics and SMEs around the UK. I have no doubt that we will get there.
The electricity for AVs could come from renewable resources. You can already chose for your electricity to solely come from renewable resources. There have been big advances in the efficiency of wind and tidal turbines and nuclear energy is now cleaner (not clean) than it has ever been.
My thoughts are that fossil fuels will run out (not cost efficient to mine) and we must start to do something about this now. Small leaps......
Many years ago, everyone had horses, one day the car was invented - it must have been a similar situation.......
OK, anyone who questions EVs is a Luddite, but anyone who thinks everything will be solved without planning (or trusting to "It's coming") is being reasonable...
The argument about horses vs ICEs is a ridiculous one.
How long did it take ICEs to replace horses in public transport (horse drawn buses, barges, etc) or the military (most of the German military was horse-drawn throughout WW2)?
Our government is banning petrol/ICE cars in 10 years, while not actually explaining how this will be achieved (OK, let's say there'll be significant ICEs for another 10 years, perhaps... that's still only 20 years -It took 70 years for ICEs to replace horses in nearly all situations with the added technological spur of two world wars! Many people in the UK didn't have a car at all until the 1960s or beyond).
Any idiot can stick a pin in a calendar and say "It'll all be sorted by then" (And he has), but it takes planning, costing and engineering to achieve anything.
I see the former, but not much sign of the latter.
I'm all for reducing our impact on the planet, but I'm not convinced that the current type of EV is providing a feasible solution, at least not with the current level of infrastructure planning and transparency.
Now THAT is an interesting subject? Can you tell us anything more?
M
Last edited by snowman; 18th August 2021 at 15:00.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
I'm not negative about EV's, we have one at home (and a few ICE cars) my issue is governments trying to make commitments based on misinformation with a very poor knowledge base, It may not be corrupt but most of their advice is from vested interests, The technology isn't there yet, any legislation regarding the forced implementation of non ICE vehicles should have been based on a timing plan covering efficiency, cost and infrastructure milestones, current technology is a stop gap, When I complete IDMS submissions for automotive manufacturers there is very little information regarding sustainability. Look at the Lithium mining and processing in Chile it's horrendous and clearly not sustainable.
Toyota have got it right, the future based on current knowledge and technology is the Hydrogen Fuel Cell, even that riles on current battery technology.
Its a bit Star Trek but things will not really move on until we can store energy, easily, cheaply and in large quantities.
I actually think that it will be longer than that before ICE are confined to classic car hobby status, probably closer to 20-25 years.
That said, the charging infrastructure is growing at a tremendous rate as well as rapid chargers now charging at up to 350kw (it was only 50kw when I started driving electric six years ago). Things are moving at a pace, ideas are researched on various levels to make EVs a viable option for more and more people.
As long as the growth continues organically as more EVs take to the roads, there will be a balance between supply and demand. Remember also, that for a significant proportion of the driving population, they will never need to charge anywhere but at home. All noise coming from the energy providers is that they feel they will have no problem meeting the energy demand.
My previous post was meant in a lighthearted way and I’m not suggesting anyone is a Luddite but it does get tiresome reading the same old arguments going round and round however many times they are answered.
Toyota have just introduced a BEV.
Hydrogen fuel cells will never be used in cars in any numbers, it’s an incredibly inefficient way to propel a vehicle. Unless it can be produced with free, surplus energy.
I did read an article suggesting that disused oil rigs could be retrofitted with wind turbines and the energy used to extract hydrogen from seawater and pipe it back to the mainland in the existing pipe work. This may be an option to produce relatively cheap hydrogen but laying a cable and sending the electricity back directly wound still be far more efficient.
Nobody has said that, other than in jest. The questions you and others are asking are the right ones. Even I, labelled as an ‘EV bang drummer’ is watching progress closely. But I do see how things have moved in even the last 18 months.
The government, in common with many others, is implementing a ban on new conventional ICE/fossil fuelled cars by 2030, with plug in hybrids that can cover ‘substantial’ miles on electricity alone continuing to be sold until 2035, assuming there is demand.
After that, the millions of ICE cars won’t be banned, they will still be on the roads and can still be brought and sold as now.
There’s still quite a long time frame between now and the scrappage date of any ICE/Hybrid cars purchased over the next 14 years, I’d say a quarter of a century. Hydrogen cars may be a thing by then too, if we can sort clean production and storage and distribution.
If we can’t have it sorted over that timeframe then there’s really not much hope is there.
I’m not sure what the alternative is, more of the same probably won’t work if we’re honest.
I’m not really sure what it is you want, there are already plans and pilots to turn street furniture into charging points, most if not all of the motorway network has access to charging and charging doesn’t seem to be a significant issue for those on these threads who currently use a ev.
We will not see millions of ex’s appear overnight it’s currently around 260k, in 2020 ~9% of the ~1.6m cars sold in the U.K. were ev’s, to put that in perspective around 55% of the U.K. ev’s were brought last year and the current charging infrastructure seems to be handling the growth at present.
As the majority of non home charging is privately funded you can’t expect the charging market to race ahead of demand it’s much more likely to be just in (or behind) time to ensure timely ROI as the ev take up increases.
I fully agree it would be great to have a detailed, documented and funded nationwide plan from our government but I suspect no one here is going to hold their breath for that.
Also don’t forget that in urban areas at least the expectation that personal car ownership will decrease in favour of autonomous shared ownership/taxi options, the changes we are discussing now are the thin end of the wedge.
At the moment Ev’s are coming irrespective of us liking it or not, should an alternate solution that’s more viable be found then great but personally I don’t think it’ll be hydrogen fuel cells.
For those that are keen to suggest that Hydrogen is the future, it would be good to hear how they suggest the many challenges for that can be overcome and why that is going to be easier than electric vehicles. Converting or replacing the existing network of petrol stations to pump hydrogen instead is no small task, and unlike electric vehicles where a significant amount of charging can be done at home, the provision of significant numbers of public hydrogen pumps would have to happen prior to the sale of any hydrogen powered vehicles.
Currently, the process for getting the hydrogen from the water is so energy intensive, the argument against EVs requiring x additional power stations holds equally for hydrogen too.
Hydrogen may well have its place but I would suggest it may be in large fleets of commercial vehicles.
Last edited by stuie-t; 18th August 2021 at 16:35.
Reminds me of a Henry Ford quote: 'If I'd asked them what they wanted, they'd have said faster horses!'
Personally, I don't believe electric vehicles in their current form are the long-term answer; I suspect Hydrogen is the long-term solution as it's an everlasting, renewable resource. They key will be cheap production at scale.
I think you've missed my point. It doesn't matter what time of day you draw from the NG to recharge, or indeed the cost to do so.
If you feel that you've got to charge your EV, which has a theoretical range of 200+ miles, every time you've driven 10 miles, you either have range anxiety or a poor understanding of the technology.
Knowing my neighbour (whom I referenced in my earlier post) & his professional background, in his case it's likely to be the former rather than the latter.
______
Jim.
This is sort of where I am now.
Let's say it takes a good 20 years to get something to the tipping point from a workable prototype (it could be much less time of course), for those of us who are middle-aged it might be all we see in our lifetime that is widely adopted. I'm guessing as I'm not an expert.
Isn’t solar, wind and wave generated electricity an everlasting, renewable source too?
Last edited by Dave+63; 18th August 2021 at 19:00.
Dave, may I suggest that hot air is also a widely available resource in some of the sub-forums.
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