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Thread: To service or not to service

  1. #1
    Craftsman Stuart's Avatar
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    To service or not to service

    I’d like to ask the opinion of those who’ve owned automatics for very many years.
    I just acquired a Speedbird III from 2009 in wonderful condition, with little sign of much use at all. It’s virtually as-new. It’s never been serviced. It gains 1.5 seconds a day, which is of course brilliant.
    The date wheel may be slightly sticky, as it hesitated a little before clicking fully into position today.
    Do I need to commit £200 plus to servicing the ETA 2824-2 movement to ensure its longevity and accuracy over another 9 years? Is there a cheaper option, eg lube and oil-change service only etc?! Or do I save the money and hope for the best?!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    I’d like to ask the opinion of those who’ve owned automatics for very many years.
    I just acquired a Speedbird III from 2009 in wonderful condition, with little sign of much use at all. It’s virtually as-new. It’s never been serviced. It gains 1.5 seconds a day, which is of course brilliant.
    The date wheel may be slightly sticky, as it hesitated a little before clicking fully into position today.
    Do I need to commit £200 plus to servicing the ETA 2824-2 movement to ensure its longevity and accuracy over another 9 years? Is there a cheaper option, eg lube and oil-change service only etc?! Or do I save the money and hope for the best?!
    If it aint broke, then don't fix it.

  3. #3
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    Fantastic watch.

    You open a box of worms here with many opinions about to come forth.

    I have owned autos for decades now. I only service when it is needed and find it saves me a lot of money.

    If it worries you then service for piece of mind and happiness, if not then wait and see. Is the date actually sticking? Or is is just they way the mechanism works giving that appearance just before the date drops into place?
    Others with the same movement and watch may well be able to help here.

    Even though I am in the service when needed camp I would have the watch looked at by a watchmaker if it was not usual.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave in Wales View Post
    If it aint broke, then don't fix it.
    Absolutely Dave. Just wait until it starts playing up then get it serviced.

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  5. #5
    Craftsman bagman's Avatar
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    At +1.5s/day I'd definitely leave it well alone. Fantastic watch, my good lady bought me a second hand one (with a little help of course) for a present a couple of years ago.

  6. #6
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    The 'if it ain't broke' fraternity are akin to the flat earth society, I`m not going to waste my time trying to persuade anyone otherwise.

    At some point the lubrication will break down to such an extent where the performance of the watch is affected. Despite the fact that it seems to be keeping good time this may already have happened; I`d be interested to know what the amplitude's like and whether the hand-winding is getting that stuff 'gritty' feeling that happens when the lubrication's poor. It's possible to regulate a watch with poor amplitude to compensate somewhat for the timekeeping, thus creating the illusion that all's well.

    Servicing a watch involves stripping it down to component parts, thoroughly cleaning the parts in cleaning solvents, then reassembling and re-oiling . It isn`t like having your car serviced! Corners can be cut, and a watch can be made to run better by partial stripdown and oiling key points if you know what you're doing, but it doesn`t take a lot longer to do it right. Mechanical watches rely on lubrication to minimise wear, anyone with a basic sense of mechanical empathy will understand that.

    As for paying £200 to get the watch serviced, I`ll gladly service it for £199! Seriously, there are cheaper options for this movement!

    Paul

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    The 'if it ain't broke' fraternity are akin to the flat earth society, I`m not going to waste my time trying to persuade anyone otherwise.

    At some point the lubrication will break down to such an extent where the performance of the watch is affected. Despite the fact that it seems to be keeping good time this may already have happened; I`d be interested to know what the amplitude's like and whether the hand-winding is getting that stuff 'gritty' feeling that happens when the lubrication's poor. It's possible to regulate a watch with poor amplitude to compensate somewhat for the timekeeping, thus creating the illusion that all's well.

    Servicing a watch involves stripping it down to component parts, thoroughly cleaning the parts in cleaning solvents, then reassembling and re-oiling . It isn`t like having your car serviced! Corners can be cut, and a watch can be made to run better by partial stripdown and oiling key points if you know what you're doing, but it doesn`t take a lot longer to do it right. Mechanical watches rely on lubrication to minimise wear, anyone with a basic sense of mechanical empathy will understand that.

    As for paying £200 to get the watch serviced, I`ll gladly service it for £199! Seriously, there are cheaper options for this movement!

    Paul
    That's good advice Paul and from someone with vast experience in these matters there's no question of that. Saying that i'm one of the 'leave it alone' fraternity that thinks a watch with this movement will kind of tell you when it's not happy.

    That said i just had my PRS-82 fully serviced and i was told that due to lack of servicing / attention the third wheel needed replacing (see attached) and if i had had it serviced sooner this may not have been the case so that kind of craps on my theory. Also the third wheel was hard to find so i was lucky as the NOS ETA 2783 parts are hard to come by but my watch man sourced one on eBay from somewhere in Spain (Phew!).









    Last edited by WillHarris2306; 14th October 2018 at 09:23.

  8. #8
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    I look at it this way. Would you wait for your car to break down or wear out before you get it serviced or have to get it repaired?

  9. #9
    Master
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    This thread shows why you have to be so careful when buying a used watch. I wouldn't consider a watch that has gone many years without a skilled service. It's just neglect, no matter what spin is put on it.

  10. #10
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    I assume this is not your only watch, if it’s a part of a rotation I don’t think +2 a day matters right?


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  11. #11
    Journeyman Mathif's Avatar
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    +2 is pretty amazing... more likely to come back losing more time


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert189598 View Post
    I look at it this way. Would you wait for your car to break down or wear out before you get it serviced or have to get it repaired?
    A big difference in impact to my life/getting stuff done if my watch stops vs if my car stops. As such preventative maintenance for the car becomes relevant.

  13. #13
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    £200 for the sake of 1.5 seconds, I would leave it be.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert189598 View Post
    I look at it this way. Would you wait for your car to break down or wear out before you get it serviced or have to get it repaired?
    I would say cost of service in relation to cost of replacement parts (movement) is a factor in the decision - same with cars...some are happy to wait until they break down (or just hope they don’t) because the financial penalty of doing so isn’t prohibitive.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP28 View Post
    A big difference in impact to my life/getting stuff done if my watch stops vs if my car stops. As such preventative maintenance for the car becomes relevant.
    Surely if you own any machine you want to look after it and get a good service life from it. Whether it's a watch, car, lawn mower or washing machine. Otherwise you'd wait till it broke down then pay many times the amount of a service to get it repaired or throw it away and buy a new one. I

  16. #16
    Grand Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    I don't think the OP is questioning if he should get it serviced because it's running at 1.5 secs per day. He's asking because it's 9 years old.

    Personally, I'd feel more comfortable getting it done – 9 years is a long time and you could save in the long run while the parts are still whole and not ground to dust.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onelasttime View Post
    I don't think the OP is questioning if he should get it serviced because it's running at 1.5 secs per day. He's asking because it's 9 years old.

    Personally, I'd feel more comfortable getting it done – 9 years is a long time and you could save in the long run while the parts are still whole and not ground to dust.
    This ↑

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert189598 View Post
    Surely if you own any machine you want to look after it and get a good service life from it. Whether it's a watch, car, lawn mower or washing machine. Otherwise you'd wait till it broke down then pay many times the amount of a service to get it repaired or throw it away and buy a new one. I
    But you don’t pay many more times to service a watch when it has stopped/broken vs when it has not and in many cases you pay the same.

    The only relevant point for me made further down the thread is that for hard to source parts/mechanisms then it probably does make sense to be more proactive in servicing.

  19. #19
    Master helidoc's Avatar
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    At 9 years old it's due a service, so if I liked the watch, I would accept the cost.

    This is why I'm reluctant to buy cheaper automatic watches, as the service is quite a high proportion of the value. I must have paid £80 last year for a Seiko worth not a lot more than that, but it's just the cost of ownership. They need looking after, so planned servicing is essential.

    Dave

  20. #20
    Craftsman Stuart's Avatar
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    A helpful discussion. Thanks for all the comments. On the whole i think I will get it serviced as I’d like it to last many years. I am not confident though that the timekeeping won’t be worse when it returns. It’s current performance is fantastic and certainly not a reason to service.
    If anyone feels able to recommend where/to whom to send it for servicing, for excellent work and reasonable cost, I shall be grateful.

  21. #21
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    I’m in the service regularly camp here.

    I cannot tell whether a watch needs a service or not if it appears to be running ok so tend to stick to 5 year intervals for my automatics.

    I may be spending money I don’t need to but err on the better safe than sorry side.

    I look on it as a cost of ownership expense, hence I only have two regularly worn automatics.
    Last edited by JeremyO; 14th October 2018 at 16:29.

  22. #22
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    A helpful discussion. Thanks for all the comments. On the whole i think I will get it serviced as I’d like it to last many years. I am not confident though that the timekeeping won’t be worse when it returns. It’s current performance is fantastic and certainly not a reason to service.
    If anyone feels able to recommend where/to whom to send it for servicing, for excellent work and reasonable cost, I shall be grateful.
    I can recommend Brendan. https://webwatchmaker.com

    No connection other than a satisfied customer.

    Ian

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    A helpful discussion. Thanks for all the comments. On the whole i think I will get it serviced as I’d like it to last many years. I am not confident though that the timekeeping won’t be worse when it returns. It’s current performance is fantastic and certainly not a reason to service.
    If anyone feels able to recommend where/to whom to send it for servicing, for excellent work and reasonable cost, I shall be grateful.
    I recommend Olivier at http://onatelier.co.uk/

    He fully serviced my PRS-82 to perfection for around £190.
    Last edited by WillHarris2306; 14th October 2018 at 16:45.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    I’d like to ask the opinion of those who’ve owned automatics for very many years.
    I just acquired a Speedbird III from 2009 in wonderful condition, with little sign of much use at all. It’s virtually as-new. It’s never been serviced. It gains 1.5 seconds a day, which is of course brilliant.
    The date wheel may be slightly sticky, as it hesitated a little before clicking fully into position today.
    Do I need to commit £200 plus to servicing the ETA 2824-2 movement to ensure its longevity and accuracy over another 9 years? Is there a cheaper option, eg lube and oil-change service only etc?! Or do I save the money and hope for the best?!
    As in all walks of life, those who skint on servicing tend to get bitten on the bum. You may be lucky or maybe not, but for the cost of a service, why take the chance.

  25. #25
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    You should check out this short article. He also does servicing. I've not used him but seems well regarded.

    http://watchguy.co.uk/how-often-does...eed-a-service/

  26. #26
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    I rest my case......

    A service, from experience, seems to be around £200 even for watches worth a fraction of that price.

    I have paid it and more for a beloved thirteen year old Zenith with a broken rotor bearing, it was carried out by Genesis and was worth every penny.

    My son had one recently tended to for me in Poland....serviced, lightly restored with new calf strap...all for 50 Zloty, about £35, but I add this just for interest purposes.
    I was quoted £200+ in the UK, not Genisis, for the same job.

    The watch below was my fathers who died in 1971, bought I should guess in the 1960's...so it's at least 50 years old.

    It has NEVER even had the back off, let alone a service, It's accuracy is marvellous for a watch of this age.

    I did, for the purposes of this thread try to get the back off but it looks like a front-loader.

    In my watch box there are a couple of 'old' watches, one a 38 year old Seiko that have never been touched and just seem to go on-and-on.

    I'm sure we all have such watches in an old box or at the back of a drawer.

    I rest my case, 'if it aint broke then don't fix it', especially on watches of no value.

    50+ years old and NEVER touched.
    PA150627-RS by Dave in Wales, on Flickr
    Last edited by Dave in Wales; 15th October 2018 at 10:12.

  27. #27
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    What exactly is that supposed to prove? Of course mechanical things will often stagger on when neglected. It is like claiming you never have any maintenance on your house, so not maintaining a house must be a good idea.
    Watches are precision instruments, designed to be maintained by servicing. No manufacturer would ever suggest neglecting them, and they might know a bit about the subject.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    What exactly is that supposed to prove? Of course mechanical things will often stagger on when neglected. It is like claiming you never have any maintenance on your house, so not maintaining a house must be a good idea.
    Watches are precision instruments, designed to be maintained by servicing. No manufacturer would ever suggest neglecting them, and they might know a bit about the subject.
    From over 50 years experience, MY practice where watches is concerned remains the same..."If it aint broke.......!

  29. #29
    Master Nigeyp's Avatar
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    Difficult one, but i guess its a bit like a small car engine relying on lubrication? Only difference is no real heat or un-burnt fuel is involved to choke it, score the bores and lead to cracked rings and piston slap...etc etc etc.

    I'd still be inclined to have the watch serviced to ensure the lubrication viscosity or indeed lubrication at all is still present...those little gears meshing metal to metal...? Just like I wouldn't wait for the scored bores, piston slap in my car before changing the oil. I'd at least book the watch in for an oil change.

    I guess you can apply any analogy you like, similarly i wouldn't wait while i was dehydrated to have a glass of water...

    Any machine needs maintenance, while it is running ok and then repair and rebuild when it isn't. So its a choice really. Perform the former or wait for the latter. In the grand scheme of things no big deal. Its only a watch rather than a 1958 Ferrari Testarossa. No on second thoughts i'd just get your fun out of the watch and then when it stops running because it hasnt been properly lubricated for years, just get all the cogs and gears replaced in a rebuild, broad as long really...? Up to you. I'm off out to play now its sunny.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave in Wales View Post
    A service, from experience, seems to be around £200 even for watches worth a fraction of that price.

    I have paid it and more for a beloved thirteen year old Zenith with a broken rotor bearing, it was carried out by Genesis and was worth every penny.

    My son had one recently tended to for me in Poland....serviced, lightly restored with new calf strap...all for 50 Zloty, about £35, but I add this just for interest purposes.
    I was quoted £200+ in the UK, not Genisis, for the same job.

    The watch below was my fathers who died in 1971, bought I should guess in the 1960's...so it's at least 50 years old.

    It has NEVER even had the back off, let alone a service, It's accuracy is marvellous for a watch of this age.

    I did, for the purposes of this thread try to get the back off but it looks like a front-loader.

    In my watch box there are a couple of 'old' watches, one a 38 year old Seiko that have never been touched and just seem to go on-and-on.

    I'm sure we all have such watches in an old box or at the back of a drawer.ll


    I rest my case, 'if it aint broke then don't fix it', especially on watches of no value.

    50+ years old and NEVER touched.
    PA150627-RS by Dave in Wales, on Flickr
    Lovely watch and a great story :)
    Last edited by WillHarris2306; 15th October 2018 at 13:52.

  31. #31
    Apprentice Johnny.h's Avatar
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    Rule of thumb if it’s keeping good time and the power reserve is at least 24hrs leave it well alone if you still want to have it serviced it shouldn’t cost more than £100


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  32. #32
    What’s wrong with a flat Earth any way?!

    Sometimes a watchmaker commenting on only part of a post reminds me of the very real example of:

    Ask a Physio and they’ll want to treat you for 6-12 weeks, ask a surgeon and they’ll want to operate, ask a watchmaker, and they’ll ignore the specifics of the original post and go completely off topic lol
    It's just a matter of time...

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    No manufacturer would ever suggest neglecting them, and they might know a bit about maximising after sales profits.

    Or maybe the above is slightly more accurate...
    It's just a matter of time...

  34. #34
    Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny.h View Post
    Rule of thumb if it’s keeping good time and the power reserve is at least 24hrs leave it well alone if you still want to have it serviced it shouldn’t cost more than £100


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    No!

    If the power reserve is less than 30 hrs there’s a problem!

    As for the £100 service..........where? Including a mainspring ( which sould always be replaced if available) and probably a new barrel if the watch has had plenty if use, you’d be hard pressed to get a watch serviced properly for £100.

    Trust me, I’ve had plenty of watches apart over the oast few years, I don’t make this up!

  35. #35
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave in Wales View Post
    From over 50 years experience, MY practice where watches is concerned remains the same..."If it aint broke.......!
    I agree - have been in the watch game for 35 years plus, never had a service done - ever.

    Do not have any of the watches from those years, but a philosophy I agree with.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  36. #36
    Grand Master
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    The reason people put forward the ‘if it ain’t broke’ theory is all down to cost. If watch servicing was a lot cheaper people would be more inclined to maintain their watches better.

    I can understand why people talk themselves out of having their watch serviced....what I can’t understand is the reasons they come up with to justify it!

    I’ve no axe to grind, I don’t really care if if I never service another watch, but the technical case for maintaining a watch correctly by servicing it every few years is beyond refute.

    Your watches, do what you like with them, believe what you choose to believe.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    I’ve no axe to grind, I don’t really care if if I never service another watch, but the technical case for maintaining a watch correctly by servicing it every few years is beyond refute.

    Your watches, do what you like with them, believe what you choose to believe.
    As mentioned by Paul and others, the manufacturers will have the best idea of how long your watch can go between services but, it's up to you whether you want to follow that. Your watch won't tell you when it needs a service if that service is to stop the parts wearing out. You can mess about tracking beat error, rate, power reserve and so on but it doesn't mean anything in this case.

    I think the original question was about a 2824 which is not an expensive calibre to buy (depending on spec). I can buy an ETA2824-2 complete in standard steel configuration for about £275 and that would be vacuum packed so it should be possible to just swap over as is. A loose pack complete movement is about £150 but will need a service before fitting. I charge more than the difference to service an auto so, I suppose the vacuum pack would work out cheaper.

    For a 7750, you'd have to double these prices (more or less). These are only standard configurations though - you can pay more.

    But we don't really want to be replacing complete movements as that's just a waste. In terms of regular servicing and replacing parts, as noted above the price/availability should make a difference to your decisions. Just choosing one component in the train (a third wheel as it was mentioned in another post), and looking mainly at Omega as I do a lot of those, plus only one supplier (not the cheapest for me and don't always have the necessary stock):

    For a 2824-2, it's about £6.
    For a 2892-2, it's about £6 (a very common calibre as well).
    For an Omega 1120 (based on the 2892-2), it's about £20.
    Going back in time to the seventies, an Omega 1020 third wheel is about £32.
    For the sixties cal. 565, it's £43.
    And for the fifties cal. 330, it's £47.

    Once you get back to the sixties, it can be very hard to find parts for some makers and some calibers. The ones above are all available now but, I don't know how long these parts, even for a 2892, will be easy to get on the open market as things are changing. Better to save the existing parts by looking after them, in my opinion. I don't know of any watchmaker (including myself) short of work so, like Paul, I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything.

    I'd imagine most of us don't have watches that we've owned for decades as we tend to sell them on. If you sell, I suppose as long as you say that it hasn't been serviced for x years, then no-one is being misled and the buyer will be prepared for a bigger service outlay.

    And, I service everything as I don't like anything to be wearing out. I also have a fair few vintage and it hurts to pay £50 for a wheel...

    Cheers, Chris

  38. #38
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    I am in the service when needed camp.

    I have an Omega SMPc that is over twenty years old. It has had one service because it needed it. It cost the same, with replacement parts as it would if there had been none so I will wait again for when it needs it and not waste money on a service shedule.

    (I do not count pressure checks in this as I do this as I dive with the watch).

    I understand why people want to service their watches and why watchmakers tell you it is a good idea. Do whatever your wallet and happiness ask.

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