Reply With QuoteWhat he wants has got nothing to do with you. If you don't like it, read something else. There is loads of stuff out there.Originally Posted by number2
What is strange and aggressive is you coming in like you own the place and then start rambling on what sort of thing should be discouraged. It is your opinion but it is not a mandatory law for your underlings to obey.
Once again you either go with the flow or go elsewhere. The worse thing is to drone on that the plebs do not come up to your high standards.
What he wants has got nothing to do with you. If you don't like it, read something else. There is loads of stuff out there.
And round and round it goes.......
I agree and yes it's time to say some of us will have to agree to disagree. Time for a few of us to pull out.And round and round it goes.......
OK, have a good day.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
I don't need anything. I didn't post it. I just believe that after spending that kind of money someone may feel they can share that in its own dedicated thread on a dedicated watch forum.
You must be bored eh?
No excuse for his language.
No just don't understand how shallow and needy some people are.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
I don't own the place, it's clear for all to see that you do. Why don't you post something original instead of spending your life pulling others up. There must be a part of Europe that you haven't visited yet - see ya.
We need to join hands and sing about coke and singing....
It's interesting to note who (in the main) have bothered to reply to this thread.
The long-term, high post-count individuals (who you'd expect to be invested in/protective of this forum), with a very few exceptions, haven't commented. In fact, it's obvious that several have all but stopped contributing in any of the open areas of the forum.
A thought from our very own 'blue boy', from July 2015:
I think this forum is on the verge of becoming a runaway train. I hope not, though.
______
Jim.
Something I have been watching with interest.
They are happier amongst their 'inner cabal'.
They appear to trawl all the threads - with the sole intention of commenting in the Draft Thread.
This made me laugh. I know there's certain cliques here but don't take them so seriously!
Unfortunately I think its in danger of crossing over into the illegitimate offspring of eBay and Facebook, shallow needy people with nothing much to say about watches other than ''wear in good health'' whilst using SC for a quick profit and paying no fees.
Last edited by number2; 11th September 2017 at 11:43.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
In response to the original topic, I've got more watches than I could ever possibly wear even on a rotational basis (particularly now since they are in the UK and I'm not.....), but I've always been fascinated by their functional beauty and used to love poring over the Sotheby's Watch Auction catalogues in the 70's and 80's - hoping one day I'd manage to be able to afford them.
When I finally did I guess my natural collecting obsession kicked in (I've collected lots of strange stuff), and I amassed a fairly large collection fairly quickly - an activity possibly energized by my first collection getting nicked by the missus.
Anyway the gist of it is although I loved the collecting process I guess I always hoped in the back of my mind that my watches would eventually be worth more when I sold them than they did when i bought them.
And I never really engaged in many of the watch discussions because frankly I didn't know enough about them, other than brands and models. I've got about 36,000 photos of various watches, mostly divers, that I've amassed over the years which I hope to be able to share with Forum members if I ever make it back to Blighty.
Well that's about it.
And one day I'll figure out how to post photos.....
You appear to have misunderstood my comment, which referenced 'robt' & his point that expert commentary/input disappears as the 'nice watch', '+1' & other banalities proliferate. Hence, long-term, high post-count members stop posting (or post less) in the open sub-fora.
______
Jim.
The following are just some technical thoughts, not a suggestion for this forum at this time...
What is needed here is some way to visually identify and promote threads that are 'high quality'. This begs the deeper question of how to identify such threads if comment-count is not adequate alone. The usual response is a Like button but that is open to misuse. I suspect a variety inputs might be needed, including tagging by moderator(s).
If this was the USA, I'd be patenting my ideas for algorithms to do this already. ;-)
And yet these sorts of threads are needed too, as they still generate interest. Thus any solution that somehow promotes low volume but 'high quality' threads needs to do it alongside high volume threads.
I have some ideas on how these issues can be addressed but (a) they require software changes and (b) they are not suitable for TZ-UK as things stand.
I think, as things stand, we all need to exhibit greater maturity. But I shan't be holding my breath for this. ;-)
It seems to me that longer term members perhaps haven't commented because they know that a thread like this can't change anything. Indeed, my own comments in this thread have really just been thoughts-out-loud about ways to mitigate (using software) some of the issues raised and I am not suggesting that they will be implemented in this forum.
Things are what they are and I think we should probably stop worrying about it. Other online communities have similar perceived problems, so we're not unique.
In fact, I think the forum is quite healthy overall! It has fresh new members joining, it's not dying, it is a sustainable community, and we should be pleased about all that. It would be much, much worse if new members were not joining, since it would inevitably still be losing older members.
TZ-UK is what it is. It's a formula that works pretty well overall. Let's be happy that we have it.
Partly that and, I suspect, partly because there are only so many people who can be arsed getting involved with the kind of pointless, aggressive bickering that always results, followed by then having to check the bear pit to make sure you're not getting ripped a new one in there too. Too much bother.It certainly isn't solely down to a few too many Rolex/value threads, that's for sure.
They're only watches...
Heretic!
Nail on the head.Partly that and, I suspect, partly because there are only so many people who can be arsed getting involved with the kind of pointless, aggressive bickering that always results, followed by then having to check the bear pit to make sure you're not getting ripped a new one in there too. Too much bother.
They're only watches...
i was going to do a bit on sat diving/watches and a bit on Cameron's descent as he used one of our vessels, but when I thought about it, I couldn't be arsed with the way threads go on here now with the know alls, sarky eejits and backstabbers.
mike
Shame because I really wanted you to do that thread Mike. I was fascinated.
That would have made an interesting thread, whatever brand of watch was involved.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
That would have been a great thread Mike but I'll bet for all the effort you would expend on such a write up it would upset you to see it disappear off the first page pretty rapidly to be replaced by the banality of "My AD just called", etc etc.
Technical and interesting stuff requires more than "nice watch" unfortunately and is mostly met with indifference nowadays.
My post on a transistorised balance wheel watch was met with mass indifference and with only a few stalwarts replying. Compare and contrast the posts about somebody going into a shop and buying a watch with no further info, they get huge post numbers.
As somebody posted above, this is the Facebook generation and the forum is turning into a picture book.
Sad but true.
Cheers,
Neil.
Not trying to be contentious, after all that's what the BP's for, but what do folks think the forum exists for exactly...personally while I appreciate its great that Eddie provides it and not wishing to speak for him I've always thought it's primary purpose is as a very effective marketing and adv ertising tool for his watches...by providing a place like this for watch minded folks to hang out and discuss all brands including those of TF as well as pretty much anything else under the sun hasn't he hit the sweet spot so beloved of marketers by creating a self perpetuating, content self generating and loyal community that also acts as a very potent advertisement for his watches since anyone unfamiliar with TF products can hardly fail to come away with positive views and people put more stock in recommendations, reviews and feedback from other buyers.
Not to disparage the meta debate here but change is inevitable.
And breathe! ;-)
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
You said it more eloquently than I did when I said bitching, but I've come close to leaving a few times. Just because of attitudes.
Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
As a footnote I no longer go in the BP.
Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
hehe, yep ran on a bit that one, soz.
It is interesting to read through lots of the various threads and the rhetoric used, lots of us probably get dragged or goaded into saying things that we would not say to each other F2F.
BP is a gloves off section but its turned into the C bomb thread where you can openly call someone this obscenity without fear of a F2F, it is way off context with the forum remit but thats whats it there for I suppose, for grown adults to throw abuse at each other and have no fear of a F2F comeback while perusing our hobby.
Freedom of speech and having an opinion is great especially without any moderators to keep us in check but more often than not its taken too far for a watch forum.
I've popped in there a couple of times in the past but TBH I don't like to see people at their worst.
Cheers,
Neil.
The BP is a malignant cancer that will not only eat itself but spread, as is the nature of cancers, to other parts of the forum.
Indeed this has already started to happen as I'm sure you will find should you look long enough.
Once felt to be acceptable it will gain momentum and there will be no turning back. If the BP was meant to contain such foulness it has failed.
You cannot allow such a malicious entity to live and expect to tame it, it will always find a way.
Like any other cancer, it needs cutting out before it spreads any further or it will consume that which originally gave it life...the forum itself.
That's my opinion, others are and will always be available but either way and so far as this topic goes, I'm out.
The problem is that reply numbers do NOT indicate how much people liked your thread. A technical thread gets few replies (and thus 'disappears' more quickly) not because people are indifferent but because most people can't think of anything useful to say. Comments of "great post" would at least keep the thread visible in the current software system but could easily become rather tiresome in their own right.
For example, I greatly enjoyed your post but I didn't comment as I had nothing intelligent to add. I have however rated the thread using the thread rating tool that we do have.
As per other comments, software tools could in theory provide additional mechanisms for giving feedback on quality and displaying high-feedback threads but that's not relevant to this forum at this time.
If only cancer was as easy to get rid of.
If you don't like the bearpit don't go in there it won't bother you unless you let it.
I think the more technical threads are read and not replied to because most watch enthusiasts don't have the technical inner working knowledge of watches to ask the correct questions or provide additional info. Also, the embarrassment factor that can be attributed to a incorrect statement which does happen even here in the utopia of watch fora.
It is much easier to make comments of "nice watch" and "what a beauty" to have the affection of the crowd then to be embarrassed with the wrong answer. Although using terms like "new shoes" and "pulled the trigger' will earn a pile on from the forum as has happened.
I hope you do if you have time Mike , there's plenty on here would be interested I bet
Yup!
One of the reasons I've stopped posting technical stuff is the lack of interest. With my limited photographic and uploading skills it takes time to put something together and it's disappointing to see it disappear without trace after a very short while. 'Look at my new BLNR' seems to be far more appealing than 'look at the problems a 60s Omega 565 movement can suffer from'..........I'm currently sorting one out that's challenging to say the least, it would've been ideal for such a thread.
The forum is what it is, we can't turn the clock back and get back to how things were 10 years ago without major changes, but there's no reason why people can't behave better. Getting rid of the Bear Pit would be a step forward; I can't see why the more contentious issues couldn't be debated in G&D provided folks played nicely.
Paul
That overlooks the corrosive effect it has on the forum, by creating cliques and fights between those who do go there, which leaks over to the rest of the forum. However, I do think it would be an improvement to make the BP less visible. That's why I suggested removing it from searches and especially the "new posts" page, which for many is the fromt-page of the forum.
I genuinely don't grasp the purpose of those 'looka me and my new Rolex/Omega/Breitling/Seiko/etc' with the same standard model that has been posted scores of times on countless threads. If you have a newly released model that others are interested in hearing about, or a rare model, or a restored old watch, that makes complete sense. But beyond the usual WRUW threads the selfie stuff leaves me cold.
Last edited by bedlam; 13th September 2017 at 10:47.
Paul, if you post that thread I will definitely comment on it (as I often do on similar ones).
I'll even post the pictures if you email them to me :). (That wouldn't be the first time either).
Tell me about it .....its generally one of the first things mentioned as in owning one or wanting one . The R wprd should be "BOLLEX"
i have a few and still wear my 2004 gmt that was bought to wear bitd without a flicker of a nod to residuals, i think it lost value initially but is worth whatever now as its still fine and complete. This forum is a sheer R word fanboy/ willy waving area at times . I dont like a lot of the watches but some do open my eyes a little after some of the threads which i welcome and some of the information posted is welcome rather than willy waving posts
I would love it if you could take the time to post this sort of thing, it is very much appreciated. I would probably not reply to it because I have very little technical knowledge when it comes to watch movements but it will remain on the forum for when people search for this sort of thing even if it is buried under all the "Look at my shiny new Rolex with the stickers still on" threads!
Sent from my SM-G930F using TZ-UK mobile app
FWIW it's probably not lack of interest per se. I personally quite often subscribe to threads I find interesting to follow the replies. However, if all I can add is "great post, thanks" I generally don't (although I will sometimes give a post a tactical bump if it's not getting any replies at all). Of course one of the problems I have is that for every good thread I spot and subscribe to, there are probably 5-10 more than I miss. Some of those might be ones I'm qualified to give a helpful reply to.
What it boils down to is that there's an impedance mismatch. Posts that take effort to create also take more effort to respond to and fewer people are qualified to do so meaningfully. Such threads are always going to go at a slower pace than "look at my new BLNR" types.
I think what we really need is another subforum that goes at a slower pace than WT does now, especially as the noise is getting louder.
I have thought for a while that perhaps the best idea would be to rename/repurpose WT and M&W, which have far too much overlap when it comes to technical topics. So WT would be "Watch Talk General" and M&W would become "Horology / Technical". Mods & Wreckers doesn't seem to get a lot of traffic these days, and the name has slightly negative connotations that I'm sure puts people like you off posting more competent watchmaking-related threads in there, even though it would probably be a better fit than WT. If things like movement service threads were always posted in one place, I'd certainly check that forum before the rest.
Or more accurately, what I'd probably do is go there once a week and check out any new threads, then subscribe to the ones that interest me and follow along as replies come in at their own pace. That would not change the fact that daily chitchat is basically split between WT and G&D. It's probably right that those forums dominate the "new posts" page (although I reiterate my suggestion that excluding BP results from there would probably make the forum a happier, friendlier place).
Furthermore, it shouldn't be limited to just technical watchmaking threads. We can say "Rolex posts" belong in WT, but surely there's an exception if Mike Wood decides to post an explanation of the difference between two rare milsubs? That's interesting, somewhat technical, and I think belongs in a horology forum. Again apart from all the "really interesting, thanks" replies that such threads tend to attract if they get a bit of traction, these threads on obscure areas of horological history will tend to follow the same slow-paced response profile because of the small number of people qualified to contribute anything worthwhile.
One reason I haven't suggested this before is that I wasn't sure what would be a good alternative - it needs to be clear what separates the sub-forums. The problem with M&W right now is that the line is far too fuzzy, especially as modding is such a tiny niche nowadays. It's no good if that line just gets fuzzier and posts are split randomly between the two forums. I think "horology" is a good category, but people won't be clear on how that is different from "watch talk".
Just this morning I think I figured out a guideline to separate the two:
- Watch Talk General - Is for sharing and discussing opinions, speculation and general banter about watches
- Horology / Technical - Is for sharing and debating horological facts, both technical & historical
Under this regime, modding threads could potentially belong in either of these forums, depending on whether it's "look at my cool new Seiko 5 Fathoms mod" or a "here's how I modded my Seiko 5 Fathoms". I think those two examples would also (rightly) attract very different types of replies, and go at a different pace.
Thoughts?
The forum has changed It's normal, best not to take things like the Bear pit seriously, some of it is quite good, but when you look at the numbers of members posting in things like .the draft thread.The novelty of being able to call someone a c**t is what a lot of members like to do. speedposting the obvious about newbies speedposting and someone selling a pair of socks in s.c. Like no one else has seen it.
I know I post sod all intresting but I wish it wouldn't put people like off like Mike, Neil, Paul etc, can't just be me interested
TBH, I'd like to see certain BP threads like the draft thread locked. It's really just bait for trolling and s***posting (that's technically the correct term but this is a public forum so I'll censor it to avoid offending anyone). It's one thing for the BP to be uncensored, but it's another thing to actually encourage that sort of thing.
The BP description says "This is not a place for vendettas or personal attacks." The draft thread might as well be called "This is the place for vendettas and personal attacks (just try to be oblique about it in case the boss is watching)."
This is the real issue, in that to justify a proper incoming thread you would hope that either it's a less common watch, or makes some effort with the photography, or adds some interesting information or personal experiences of the owner. Without any of these qualities, it adds very little and just takes up space. There's the long running group incoming thread for a quick wrist shot of a new arrival, and that's a better place for it. I would however defend any incoming thread that is more considered, and have really enjoyed some of the photography and information from some members.
Of course this issue arises more with current Rolex models as the brand is by far the most popular, and we're less likely to find out anything we don't already know. But the divisive nature of the brand is also at work, when Rolex posts get described as 'willy waving / look at me / showing off', when silimlar posts about other brands would not. A bit silly really, on a watch forum. In any case, considering some of the other pieces on show around these parts, it would be some pretty mid-sized willy waving.
I can see it's a potential issue though, if people see these kinds of basic shopping posts, and join just to add more of them, thinking that this is the right place for that. All this 'unboxing' stuff around the internet about mundane products bewilders me, it's consumerism as religious ritual. Not sure what you can do about it though, apart from starting and supporting interesting threads, and on the others saying, 'Congratulations on your purchase, perhaps use the "Incoming" thread next time'.
This sounds like a good suggestion to me. Gives the more 'technically' savvy somewhere more specific to go to where the threads will travel at a slower pace, giving everyone the chance to comment or just learn something worthwhile.
Agree that the M&W nametag does have a negative sound to it.
'Consumerism as religious ritual'. That seems about right. But would tighter supervision do any good? It works because it is a 'light touch' open forum, you might damage things you like.
Best solution: don't read stuff that doesn't interest you. It's a harmless, Likeable place for guys who like watches. We may be weird, but at least we care about something.....
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