Reply With QuoteToo little detail on the watch, year etc. to make any decisions - but generally, if they are the same condition etc. no not a chance!
A question for you good fellows.
Would you pay £450 less for a Submariner with no papers from a well established dealer, or would you pay the difference for a full set from a less established place? Both are the same year of production and condition.
Both state the watch has been serviced, which is difficult to prove as ever (but more likely with the established place). Both offer the same waranty, etc.
Cheers, Berty
Too little detail on the watch, year etc. to make any decisions - but generally, if they are the same condition etc. no not a chance!
It's just a matter of time...
Both are 2008 14060m Subs :)Originally Posted by Omegamanic
Even if more confidence in the seller?
Where's Mick - he'll know
When I buy a watch it’s to wear not for resale value so I would take the saving.
I'd buy the seller..
I would look at the condition of both watches first, especially case condition and whether the bracelet is in good order, before bringing papers into the equation. If faced with a watch that had been over-polished but had its papers or an example that's unpolished and without, I’d go with the later.
If both watches are in comparable condition then a dealer asking a few hundred extra for papers is not unreasonable.
If it’s a keeper then personally I’d go with the cheaper watch and use the money saved to pay towards a service.
If you’re a serial flipper then paying the little extra in the knowledge that having papers will make the watch easier to sell in the future.
A lot of if’s :)
Depends if you are likely to keep it very long term, or likely to sell
It will be a lot easier to sell with papers as some prospective buyers will not consider anything but a full set
Good analagy but there is a bit more to go wrong with a car.
You already know your mind, you're just looking for conformation thst you're right. Personally I'd pony up and get the papers, but I'm not you.
Buy the one you're more comfortable with at the price your comfortable with :)
I was initially drawn to the buy the seller theory, to be honest, and then maybe pay for a Rolex service at some point after the warranty has expired and get a service card. Ends up similar cost I guess but initially more confidence in seller. I am genuinely torn, as having the full set is obviously a very good thing!
KenWhere's Mick - he'll know
I have given up on this one, if some mug is happy to pay £500 or more for papers that can be easily faked, then that's their look out. I no longer give a damn.
I was leaning towards the first option :)
Im glad you’ve given up on it. There are lots of us mugs about, and for the most part we are benefitting.
£450 is around 10% of the watch price for that model - it’s a very little difference in my view for a full set compared to an incomplete set, and it will end up being a much bigger difference in future come resale or just value.
If all other things are equal, and it makes the difference between affording a watch you always wanted, and couldn’t stretch to the full set, then fair enough - but there is no way in hell I’d be going for the incomplete watch if they were indentical condition etc.
Fake papers again - I love it! Of course it’s possible, just like fake watches, but... Buy the seller, if something doesn’t feel/look right then walk away - it shouldn’t be too difficult - but some of us have bought hundreds of watches over the years and managed to avoid the potential pitfalls with a little due diligence.
It's just a matter of time...
Well at least you are doing the sensible thing.
It’s not an accurate analogy though is it - if I could take my car back to Mercedes and they would strip it completely and replace every worn part (on request), or any engine part out of tolerance for the price of a service, and maybe a few extras, then I wouldn’t give a hoot about the service history. Thankfully that’s what you can do with a watch for usually (relatively) minimal outlay - a full recondition of a car by the manufacturer, if possible, is usually more expensive than a new car - just look at the BMW CSLs that were redone in-house etc.
It's just a matter of time...
Fair enough and yes you could buy a genuine watch with fake papers and be very happy with it. The problem comes when you re sell it on in all good faith to someone else, they become victim number two.
But you are right, it's not my problem.
If they are both equal save the money,if it’s an investment choose the papers.
it’s that simple,surely?
+1
Cool - not your problem!
Plus you overstate the problem somewhat - it’s fair enough to highlight the possibility, in order that people can make up their own minds.
All my watches have “original” and “genuine” papers, accept one, which is a loose watch - I know the history of the watches - simple as that. I’ve also handled a huge amount of papers etc. to feel confident on any “Modern” models. I suspect that on vintage watches, where it’s now piss easy to replicate the techniques of production of those papers it could be more of a potential problem - but two things, we are talking a 2008 Submariner FFS, and I wouldn’t be buying an expensive vintage watch without the guidance of an expert.
have a good weekend!
It's just a matter of time...
You can also buy a genuine watch with genuine papers.
One more point, if it’s a COSC model then it was made for less than 3 years. The price difference for full set or not would usually be £1k or more, so again imo it’s a false economy going for the cheaper watch but as always ymmv
It's just a matter of time...
Papers or no papers buying the seller or not, page one of watch buying, know your watches.
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I would always want papers... unless there is a huge discount for non-papered version (more than the £450 you mention)
If the "less established" still gives you enough confidence to buy from them, I would buy the full set and pay the extra.
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That’s the crux of the matter for me. I have no worry with the established place, and a slight question mark on the other (but only because I haven’t come across them personally before).
You could ask for references/experiences on both ?
If only there was a brand new one of these at a good price from an AD, time machine needed :)
with other brands it doesnt matter so much, but id never buy a rolex without papers. Box can be bought on ebay for £50, papers not.
id gladly pay an extra 450 for papers, if thats the deal breaker then your in the wrong game pal. papers all adds to the provenance of the watch plus ups the percentage of the thing not have been nicked in the past!
I’d buy a Rolex or AP without papers as long as it’s priced accordingly but I wouldn’t buy a Patek without them
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MickP has already stated on the other thread that the golden rule is to assume all papers are fakes.
I'm quite frankly astounded that anyone should feel any further discussion on the matter is warranted.
Indeed the 'oracle' has spoken.
n2
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
I'd go option 3 and wait for one with everything at a price you're happy with
As a rule of thumb I'd be paying 15% more for box and papers. That's across all brands but when you get to Rolex levels I suspect it's even wiser to stump up the extra.
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10%-15% price difference sounds reasonable.
I've bought many Rolexes without original papers because of better price.
I have documents for some of my watches but I rarely wear those papers on my wrist.
I think it’s fairly accepted that the price difference of with/ without papers is 10-25% for Rolex. Now that is:
1) Mad
2) No guarantee of a genuine watch, at all
But, the market seems to price it that way.
Personally I would go for a full set on a recent watch, but I wouldn’t care so much on something 20y old. I don’t expect to find the early 90s Tudor I want as a full set, but I will definitely evaluate the seller
Dave
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In 2002 I was coming back from a holiday in Thailand or Australia (we visited both that year) and our connection flight was in Abu Dhabi so obviously as we do I looked round the watches in the duty free.
While at the Rolex shop I asked to see a Sub and they obliged no problem after fetching the manager and he stood over me all the while as I looked it over (about £1950 I think) but as my wife was standing next to me I had to pass on it but I got to talking to the manager and he told me that the previous year they had a couple of guys come through the airport on a regular'ish basis and would look over the stock and they later discovered they had switched the shop subs with fakes, how many times they did it and whether the story was true I don't know but it's a scary thought that you could perhaps buy a fake from a AD.
Similar thing happened with a friends designer handbag, they bought it at a big high street chain and after a few weeks the stitching started to come undone so she took it back, the shop had it checked out and came to the conclusion it was fake, she then had a hell's job trying to convince the shop that she hadn't swapped it..
Long story short it was found someone bought the bag and took it back for a refund but swapped it in the process for a fake so they ended up with an expensive designer bag for free!!
Back to Rolex and papers, I recently bought a full set watch and I was happy with the price even though I know it cost a bit more, the key was buying it from a trusted seller, I know he has forgotten more about Rolex than I'll ever learn and its not worth his reputation to have something dodgy, the same also applies about a watch without papers so really it comes down to the seller..
I’ll go with buy the seller also, it is perfectly plausible for a watch to be presented with accessories that didn’t come with it when originally sold e.g non contemporary box, replacement books etc. A genuine seller will be upfront about that and not the end of the world for me.
As far as written papers go, it is possible to get a feel for this in terms of consistency of writing and numbers when compared to other written sales docs that might be with the watch. I have written non chronometer papers for a chronometer certified Rolex that I know are genuine when viewed as an overall package of what else came with the watch. A mistake or laziness by the AD in 1974, it happens...
I wholeheartedly agree with the above
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FWIW - I would by the cheaper one and put in in for a Rolex service. The you’d have a serviced watch with ‘papers’ and electronic record with RSC of the watch.
M
Exactly this ^
Once a watch is no longer in warranty, there are only 3 reasons why I can think of that somebody would want the papers:
1) They are a collector, so they want everything that came with the watch originally - papers, box, hang tag, bezel protector, dealer's carrier bag, whatever. This is an emotional rather than a logical desire and only the buyer can know how much it's worth to them.
2) They believe that the papers will prove the authenticity of the watch, which is, of course, utter bollocks. It's much easier to create a set of forged papers than it is to create a fake watch.
3) Having the papers will ease resale/increase resale value (for the reasons above - it's a vicious circle).
Yes, number 3.
Doesn't make sense but as long as some people want them they will sell more easily and/or realise a higher price.
Id go for the one in the best condition.
This endless papers papers discussion re older models is pointless. They guarantee nothing.
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