Reply With QuoteOriginally Posted by steppy
Looks like a bit more info has come to light linking Ginault with Tsung Chi/Thomas Caddell, maker of TC fake Rolexes
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=9776987
Cool. Post up a few photos when you can.
Looks like a bit more info has come to light linking Ginault with Tsung Chi/Thomas Caddell, maker of TC fake Rolexes
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=9776987
Ooh, interesting to see Chris Vail's name in there too...
I read the blog yesterday (which has now been mysteriously deleted) and it was an amazing piece of forensic detective work - directly linking a known supplier of fake watches and high quality fake Rolex parts - dials, movements, hands, etc (much lauded on the fake watch forums) with the legitimate brand of Ginault. The owner of Ginault had gone to great lengths to cover his tracks, deleting old posts and photos - even having them removed from web archive resources. Also, any mention of the link between the two activities was suppresed wherever possible - the blogger received an eternal ban from WUS.
Chris Vail came out of the matter clean, as it appears the person in question used fake names (and addresses) on company registration documents, including Vail's.
Thanks and I had pretty much concluded it was one and the same guy myself. I'll keep looking back to see if the link is working again.
Shame that blog is deleted? Anywhere this can still be read?
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There is also a long discussion on WUS...
Interesting discussion here with replies from Chris Vail:
• https://www.reddit.com/r/Watches/com...ing_tsung_chi/
Well there was. They keep deleting everything. Unless you have a link to something different?
WUS (at least some of the owners/mods) is sketchy as hell.
I think someone on TRF has screenshots.
Somebody will have.
I must be getting old, reddit just makes my brain ache trying to follow the threads.
Darn it.
Another watch brand I own instantly devalued. It'll have to go in the box with my Kobold, my McManus and that Mini I bought from Bob Long of Bungay, Norfolk.
Sent through the ether by magic
Do you have any paintings by that nice Aussie guy with the wobble board?
The link has been posted over there. I can pop it here unless it's going to cause ructions?
Google cache:
https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&ct=clnk&gl=ca
He’s re hosted it too.
Lots of scummy practices to be read about in there!
https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposin...thomas-caddell
Last edited by jimmbob; 4th July 2019 at 21:26.
Scummy practices by who... Deepdweller?
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No by Charlie G/TC.
That was quite an enlightening read! It'll certainly be interesting to see if there is any substance to the Watchuseek moderator links over the coming days/weeks.
He has categorically denied any links and says it has nothing to do with him. His replies are in the Reddit post.
Thanks and very interesting to read.
Very interesting read- I owned a Ginault up until last year, more I read about the brand though the more I felt something wasn't quite right........
Maybe the OP can amend the Thread title to 'Ginault the truth at last' may draw a bit attention to the updates.
Last edited by Rob153; 5th July 2019 at 11:25.
I also owned a Ginault until recently and assumed that the manufacturer had experience as a maker of replicas.
Was seriously impressed with the case finishing, bezel action, indices and the dial quality was amazing. Certainly better than the Tudor Black Bay I had and the equal of a MM300.
Reason I sold it was I found it heavy and uncomfortable ultimately, a bit too tall with the raised case back and the crown dug into my hand. I imagine a Rolex Sub would be just as irritating. Plus the hand built in America text at the bottom of the dial replaces the indices there so it's not possible to set the time during those minutes.
Otherwise the movement and accuracy was fine and it wound smoothly.
If they did a 1016 Explorer homage, especially with sword hands, I would definitely be interested.
I also owned a Ginault until recently and assumed that the manufacturer had experience as a maker of replicas.
Was seriously impressed with the case finishing, bezel action, indices and the dial quality was amazing. Certainly better than the Tudor Black Bay I had and the equal of a MM300.
Reason I sold it was I found it heavy and uncomfortable ultimately, a bit too tall with the raised case back and the crown dug into my hand. I imagine a Rolex Sub would be just as irritating. Plus the hand built in America text at the bottom of the dial replaces the indices there so it's not possible to set the time during those minutes.
Otherwise the movement and accuracy was fine and it wound smoothly.
If they did a 1016 Explorer homage, especially with sword hands, I would definitely be interested.
It was probably the worst kept secret that the person behind Ginault was former maker of replicas. Remarkable research nonetheless which gives substance to the allegation that was bandied about before. I have two Ginaults that are exceptional quality wise. It is likely that the brand will suffer because of the revelations.
I hope the WUS moderators if they are indeed falsely implicated will be cleared.
What will I do with my Ginault watches? Hmmm....
I’m surprised, mine was very comfortable on the wrist- I only sold mine as I bought a Submariner- The ‘hand built in America’ did annoy me on the dial TBF and all the questions about the movement did make me wonder about its origins.....
I can’t argue that the Ginault was a very well made watch, unfortunately with the links to the replica market can’t see how the brand will continue- Be interesting to see if they comment on all the shenanigans going on.
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The chat here takes an interesting angle by using the Ginault example to expose the wider fraud in the industry of hiding the origins of movements...
Le Affair Ginault: Fraud in the Watch Industry?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JibRfEBWNQ
Smoke and mirrors everywhere in the watch industry.
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This is all fascinating stuff and a lot of people could come out of it very badly. I wonder if any of the review sites that claimed to have met the non-existent master watchmaker Charles Ginault and his small team of highly experienced American watchmakers will post retractions and admit that they just wrote what they were paid to write.
WUS does at least seem to be allowing some debate now but, in the main, seem to be supporting Ginault. My two favourites are the guy claiming that it’s all just a Chinese conspiracy to take down a great American brand, and the guy who believes that, whatever TC/Ginault has done, it’s nothing as bad as Seiko did when they developed quartz movements and forced Swiss watchmakers to commit suicide. There are some real nutcases over there!
There are some people who also blindly defend the brand regardless of the facts given as the result of the investigations
While it's all very interesting, there's no denying they produced a high quality product at incredible prices, really makes a mockery of big name manufacturers and vividly illustrates the premium on brand power.
There is nothing new here, several microbrands have jumped the barrier from Replica to Mainstream. I remember the guy behind Lum-Tec selling relumed replica watch dials on several sites, and even offering a relume service on your own dial/hands.
It still is exceptional research using digital forensics, particularly when he had gone to such lengths to hide his identity. If he continues to provide false information about his ‘legit’ watches, it is a problem.
His watches IME ( Ginault) better than any homages from bigger brands. That is the tough part- reconciling his history and practices with his watches.
Agreed, I wasn't trying to 'dilute' the content, yes it is concerning, and some incredible work has gone into exposing this, however i fear the whistleblower comes across as too 'how very dare he' and loses many readers for that reason alone.
Would tend to agree with the previous observations that, at the end of the day, some high quality watches were produced, and it is unfortunate that they are now forever tainted by the
subterfuge.
A pity certainly and revealing about the industry on many fronts.
I agree about the quality but they are basically a Rolex copy rebranded. The idea that he's turned a new leaf and therefore should be given a chance is challenging to reconcile, as it doesn't take a genius to work out he's still using his old network for his current models. I am undecided if it will damage his sales or business.
And re-priced higher than any Rolex fake could sell at... and don't forget that he would never have had the advertising and the reviews he got if he was still trying to sell it as a Rolex fake.
But with this comes obligations like guarantees etc. I had a faulty watch replaced by them after a few months.
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True but then he did very well selling his fakes in the first place as they were regarded as the 1:1 copy on the market, hence why the Ginault is such a 1:1 "homage". It's no coincidence.
Making 1:1 copies is not a joke. I have seen the so called 1:1 copies or AAA quality or 99.9% copies and while they are good, they don’t hold a candle to Ginault. Nor do homages from brands like Squale or Steinhart. Everything is so much better on Ginault, including more importantly the crown action. In isolation, I am a huge fan of his watches. Just wish they
Y weren’t tainted.
So have you seen his copies or just a general AAA 1:1 copy as that is where they differ from what I have read, and according to the recent article, they are one and the same. It might be better than my Steinhart but at least I know what I am buying into and I get Swiss movement to boot, for less.
Last edited by stix; 8th July 2019 at 15:19.
Not his copies. The only copies I have seen are from a website that starts with a T and ends with a Y and requires some
Trust and some Time and is a big player in replica world. I haven’t been on any replica fora though I have a franken Sub apparently put together by someone on a replica forum. If his replicas were as good as Ginault, still have grudging admiration for his skills.
Haha all good and I am still unsure how I feel about it all as I can't deny I like one or two of his models. When I did my own research about Ginault some time ago online, the overriding anecdotal evidence was that his (TC) copies were THE most accurate and of the highest quality. They were revered amongst rep geeks.
Last edited by stix; 8th July 2019 at 15:36.
I like these, however af the current price with no discount available, a little pricey for a homage..(I checked with them direct re the discount)
I'm a simple minded kind of chap at the best of times but if he'd come to the market saying " hi guys, I'm Tsung Chi and I used to make great fake Rolexes but I've moved on and am now launching some great watches that look a lot like Rolexes", I'd have been ok but it's the deception and running the two side by side that does it for me.
A bit like Kobold, the man's a snake and I wouldn't wear his watch.
You can't make it up...
Exposing Ginault Watch Brand*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy9Aefa0TgE
* McManus Watches - they're back!
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...s-they-re-back!
New updates. Claims of human trafficking.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Watches/com...ast_tsung_chi/
https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposin...thomas-caddell
I have to say most of those redditt posters appear short of the full shilling...
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