Reply With QuoteI nicked an image from Google, so:
lysanderOriginally Posted by lysanderxiii
The triple gasketed crown was patented, the patent has since expired, any one can use Rolex's very own drawings (in the patent) to make and use this crown. The same applies to the Oyster case (mainly the knurled part for the opening wrench, and the sealing method.)
As to the crown guard ears, these have never been patented, and may not be patentable. They also cannot be trademarked or copyrighted under US IP laws, neither can the design of the bezel. Part of the reason the case styling was never trademarked was probably because it was more expesive than it was worth.
Thanks for a very useful post. :)
After seeing the pics, I have to say that those chavtastic chaps @ Rotary have done it again. :D
Its a Bolex Gaytona.
( And it's not bad looking either imho)
Cheers
I nicked an image from Google, so:
I nicked an image from Google, so:
Perfect, thank you!!
Perhaps now people will finally get what I mean about this not being "inspired by" or "similar to" a Daytona, it is an almost exact copy of a Daytona!! :evil:
Not even the Alpha is this close!! :shock:
Somehow this seems to demean what I'd thought to be the previously respectable Rotary. :?
I like, who is going to be the first to review, in the flesh, so to speak?
Come on.
It clearly says Rotary on the dial chaps. :)
Yes, it's a near 100% copy of £5k watch.
All the more reason to buy it if you like it.
I bought a Rotary Chrono-speed ( Chavitimer)
Strap was too small so I put a Papaya Toshi on it
I love it & it gives my Navitimer a rest.
I was effin frightened to wear my Daytona.
It felt like a liability when it was out of the box.
I miss it as an "nice to have" but not as a watch to wear.
You could buy this for the £100 beater it is & just
enjoy it as a cheap good looking watch.
If it picks up some dings & nicks etc, who cares :wink:
Cheers
You're right yet I can't help but feel that a company with such a long standing and honourable history as Rotary doesn't need to move down this market direction. Have they been taken over? Clearly it's a change of direction for them. Even eBay Armani aren't so obvious in their 'influences'.
I think I prefer the Rotary - if only for the lack of spurious writing on the dial!
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
You obvously missed the Chavitimer:
Yonks ago Rotary did a limited-edition Elite model which was *heavily* inspired by a Panerai Radiomir, and was very popular -they only made a thousand or so. Many of Rotary's dress watches are basically Longines dress watch "homages". The Editions range is based on watches that most people haven't heard of (Richard Mille? Franck Muller? Ingenieur?). They've been at it for ages.
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
That had struck me as well - it's a pity to see a respectable company appearing to give up the ghost like this.You're right yet I can't help but feel that a company with such a long standing and honourable history as Rotary doesn't need to move down this market direction.
It might be the angle of the pics but to me the lug shape (width) sub dials, hands and hour markers on the rotary are all noticeable different to the Daytona so i don't think i'd describe it as an exact copy but it is mighty close, in the same way a PRS-50 LE is mighty close to a FF, if not closer. I don't see this a an issue though for either the Rotary or the Precista as they are clearly branded differently and not marketed as either Rolex or Blancpain and therefore more cost effective "homages" to either a discontinued or ludicrously overpriced (IMO) original design.I nicked an image from Google, so:
Personally i love the look of the Inge a-like and might well keep an eye out for one in the post xmas sales. If i do pick one up then i'll be wearing it with the same level of pride and lack of guilt as i did my PRS-50.
I don't really have an issue with fake, hommage, rep - everyone to their own is my feeling on this.
But I fail to see how this Rotary is any less of a fake just because it says Rotary and not Rolex - come on guys its a 100% blatant copy....call it what you want, hommage, replica, fake its a Rolex Daytona copy end of. If it said Rolax on the dial instead of Rolex (so not the same spelling) would that not make it a fake either???? Where do you draw the line?
As far as I see it their is no such class as fake, hommage, rep - they should all be classed as COPY.
My PRS50 LE will arrive today and I can't wait. It doesn't say Blancpain on the dial but we all know what it is....and I really don't care. BP die hards will sat its a fake, fans of Eddie and us on here will say its a brilliantly made hommage and 99% of the world won't have a clue what it is. End of.
Its your money, your choice, just be happy with what you buy and comfortable with your own decisions.
Oh and please don't start on the children slave labour and funds terrorism crap...
What movement is in the Chavitimer?You obvously missed the Chavitimer:
Yonks ago Rotary did a limited-edition Elite model which was *heavily* inspired by a Panerai Radiomir, and was very popular -they only made a thousand or so. Many of Rotary's dress watches are basically Longines dress watch "homages". The Editions range is based on watches that most people haven't heard of (Richard Mille? Franck Muller? Ingenieur?). They've been at it for ages.
Spiritually or philosophically you can argue about anything you like of course, but in law, a fake and an homage/copy/etc are as different as night and day. Indeed, the "line" that is drawn in this case is the line under the word "Rotary", not "Rolex".
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
Aren't MM being sued into the ground for copying the crown gaurd on the modern PAMs? They'll be out of business next year and they already stopped producing watches i think.
Wheres the actual web site that makes Marina Militaires, I cant find one, the people that will be out of business are Naples watches who buy them in from the unknown Chinese factorys and sell them on. You can bet where the MM's are made, they make alot more other so called "Hommage" watches.
Joe.
Not true. In law, you cannot simply rip off anothers design and put a different name on it and call it your own, any more than I could copy J.K.Rowlings work, change the lead charactors name to Parry Hotter and sell it as my own.
Whether you get challenged on it by the manufaqcturer is a different matter entirely and I'm surprised Rolex are not jumping all over Rotary for this blatent design theft.
Well...they can jump all they like because I bought one today.
Paid £94.99.
The watch is ok as a beater & is respectably finished.
The watch comes with protective plastic on the the bracelet centre links that are
polished & also the case back & clasp.
The crown is screwdown.
The start & reset buttons are NOT screwdown.
The hour & minute hands are very blatant copy.
But overall, it would not fool anyone.
It's not horrible in anyway when you handle it in the flesh.
Hey, its a fun watch which keeps my others good for special ocasions & evening wear for
enjoyment :)
Cheers
Rotary is not a brand that's seen here in the US much (there was a gray distributor who has hawked some models on shopnbc a number of times) and my (limited) impression was that they were quite popular in the UK and in the EU, but when i scanned thru their catalog earlier this year, i was 'shocked' to see the large number hommage inspired watches they are making.
your pics pretty much say it all. still...i guess if you're on a budget and just want the general 'look' of the original, maybe that's why the brand has some appeal to the general masses.
Rotary have been doing that a lot recently:
Rotary:
Jaeger Reverso
=========================
Rotary:
IWC Ingenieur
=========================
Rotary:
Navimeter:
Can we have a few more details please, movement, crystal, weight etc.........?
Cheers,
I don't believe this design is patented and even if it was, the patent will have long run out. All the manufacturers of Submariner lookalikes are in a similar position. Similarly with the PRS14, PRS50 etc. Thus what Rotary has done is not illegal, but if they had put a crown at 12 and the word Rolex on the dial, it would be illegal. There is another grey area again if they call it a Rollex Comosgraph and use some iffy marketing to try to pass off one thing as another.Not true. In law, you cannot simply rip off anothers design and put a different name on it and call it your own, any more than I could copy J.K.Rowlings work, change the lead charactors name to Parry Hotter and sell it as my own.
If you are in a position to know that the general case shape, pusher/crown and dial layout has been especially patented by Rolex when all are extant simultaneously, and therefore that Rotary has actually infringed the terms of the patent (if one excuses the lugs, because they look like any old lugs to me), then I look forward to reading all about the court case on this here forum ;)
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
Provided it doesn`t say Rolex on it they've done nothing wrong.
In the 80s there were lots of Rolex Datejust lookalikes around with jubilee-style bracelets. Still see the odd one around these days.
Paul
I think it is extraordinarily unlikely that Rolex wouldn't have bothered to patent their watch design... :D
Marina Militare was not sue due to patent infringment on the crown lock, that has been expired for some years now. They were sued over the use of "Marina Militare" which, like "Broadarrow" seems to belong to someone.Aren't MM being sued into the ground for copying the crown gaurd on the modern PAMs? They'll be out of business next year and they already stopped producing watches i think.
Wheres the actual web site that makes Marina Militaires, I cant find one, the people that will be out of business are Naples watches who buy them in from the unknown Chinese factorys and sell them on. You can bet where the MM's are made, they make alot more other so called "Hommage" watches.
Joe.
Don't confuse copyright laws with trademark laws.
Copyright law govern the reproduction of printed matter, and believe it, or not, you can reuse plot lines and even scene details of other books (although it is plagiarism, but that is not punishable under US law.)
Copyrights cover:
* distribution of their work
* reproduction of their work
* adaptation of their work
* public performance of their work
* public display of their work
Copyrights do not cover:
* works that lack originality
- logical, comprehensive compilations–like the phone book
- unoriginal reprints of public domain works
* common/standard works–like a calendar
* works in the public domain
* freeware–software an author makes available without any restrictions
* US Government works–if printed by a commercial printer, may need copyright permission
* facts, ideas, processes that can be patented
Trademark laws cover the use of words, sounds or other identifiable symbols to mark or identify products made by a company owning the trademark. While container or product shapes can be trademarked, (The Coca-Cola bottle or the shape of GI Joe's face) these shapes cannot provide a technical, storage or usability advantage. (ie, you cannot trademark a cubical box for your brand of breakfast cereal, as it would give you an advantage in storage and transport.)
So, the shape of a watch case is pretty much non-trademarkable (is that a word?) as a good lawyer could probably argue that every shape used could lead to ease of manufacture or protection of external elements (crown, crystal etc.)
You may not like it, but there is nothing illegal about it.
There is nothing iffy about that. If your product symbol or brand name is similar enough to be confused with a trademarked item, it will not be registered as a trademark and you can be sued for trademark infringement. A crown with four points, "Folex", or even the use of "Precise" in a similar script as Eddie uses for "Precista" would be grounds for legal action.There is another grey area again if they call it a Rollex Comosgraph and use some iffy marketing to try to pass off one thing as another.
There is nothing technically innovative enough in any current Rolex watch to patent. You cannot patent something just because you want to, it must be a new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof (if you make a machine that produces energy with cold fusion, you can patent it, if you make a different shaped ice scoop, you cannot patent it). Those features that once were innovative enough to have been patented by Rolex (triple lock crown, case back etc.) are so old as to have the patent protection expire long ago; they are public domain, that is, anyone can use them.I think it is extraordinarily unlikely that Rolex wouldn't have bothered to patent their watch design...
Hi
I can't tell you what quartz movement it has.
All I can tell you is that its the same one thats in the Rotary Chronospeed ( aka Chavitimer)
Nothing special or glamourous.
dials & pushers & operate 100% the same.
The crystal is non coated mineral imho
There is a chamfer around the circumference of the crystal, which is noticeable & gives some
visual depth to the crystal.
The screw crown does not have a substantial stem once unscrewwd from the case.
Its not flimsy, just not a substantial piece as you would find on any watch above £1000
like Rolex, Omega, Breitling, IWC etc.
The Chrono sweep hand lines up very well with the dial markers.
The bracelet is an Oyster style with a hair puller clasp that is matt brushed in finish.
The outer links are brushed, the inner are polished.
Its comfortable.
I can't weigh the thing as I am not in the workshop until tomorrow but to me, its probably
15-20gms lighter than my Tudor Oyster date Chronograph as an estimate. :wink:
It carries the Rotary Dolphin guarantee supposedly good for 10atm.
Good box & full detailed papers including how to adjust clasp etc.
Bottom line = its a sub £100 watch that looks good from a casual glance that you wont
cry about if gets damaged in day to day life. :)
It is what it is !
Cheers
Not true I'm afraid.
I knew a guy who had a company making jackets that just happened to very closely resemble certain designer jackets such as Henri Lloyd. But he couldn't copy them exactly. He couldn't use exact colour matches in exactly the same place for example, there were certain style elements he couldn't copy. Basically (if I recall correctly) there were about eleven elements he had to subtly change or alter so as not to get caught up in copyright infringement or trademark infringement or whatever it was (I don't know the technical legal term, but it's irrelevant). He could not simply copy Henri Lloyd jackets and put his logo on thhem. It was illegal and he could have been sued.
None of these things were "new or useful improvements", they were simply style items.
Likewise I know of a powerboat company that became aware of another (foreign) competitor company that had an underwater hull design very similar to theirs. They got hold of a competitor boat, held up a section of their hull mould to it, and were able to ascertain that it was in fact an exact match. The competitor had clearly got one of their boats and taken a mould from the hull (note, this wasn't the whole hull, and the styling of the deck moulding and everything else was quite different). They were able to sue. So to say that you can't patent (or copyright or trademark, whatever) a shape simply isn't true.
If it were no one would bother designing anything, why go to the expense? Just pick a successful rival and rip them off.
If that were legal then business would simply cease to work any more.
But for similar money you can get an Automatic inspired by the IWC but satisfyingly different.I think they've decided this is where they're market is, Inge anyone?
^
I suspect the intended market for this sort of watch doesn't know they still make clockwork watches.
Or that it has a more expensive 'homage'. :lol:
,,,, talking of copying cars - Mitsuoka do a line in copies,,, inc Rolls, Bentley, Jag, Daimler etc,,, not even great copies,,,, but no outcry (unless I missed it !)
I tend to agree with the o.p, in that an items design is just that - the design of that item.
If I were a manufacturer, the last thing I’d want in my reputation is "can't design own, so copies others,,,,,,,,"
That would be a neat paradox, as all these watches are "clockwork" ;)
I suspect the intended market doesn't know about Richard Mille or the IWC Ingenieur, which is pretty healthy (or put another way, it is pretty unhealthy to blithely assume that they do).
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
That's too 'black and white'; whilst it's legal to copy an old design, it's generally illegal to pass it off as the real thing. This happens in every corner of the globe, yet business continues. Although there is an element of negativity in it; organisations which pioneer tend to do less well than countries that sit around waiting for someone to do all the hard work then quietly implement it for themselves. (This also applies to countries; look at the UK, for example.)
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
As does drug dealing.
(Not comparing the two incidently, just an analogy to point out that simply because something happens everywhere, that doesn't make it legal).
Hence my surprise that a big compny like Rotary, fronted by big high street stores, is willing and able to get away with it.
Invalid analogy drug-dealing is illegal.As does drug dealing.
Because it's not illegal. If you think it's that reprehensible, write to your MP or bring about a test case at your own expense. Beware however that the precedent will put the owner of this forum out of business. Thanks.(Not comparing the two incidently, just an analogy to point out that simply because something happens everywhere, that doesn't make it legal).
Hence my surprise that a big compny like Rotary, fronted by big high street stores, is willing and able to get away with it.
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
I don't understand the fuss to be honest. I'm sure if we looked at the 'proper' manufacturers there will be plenty of models with similarities to those done by others before them. You can only put sub-dials in so many places after all. Same with colours and dials, at least if you want to continue to attract 'conservative' watch buyers. Its the same in many consumer product markets.
You have just restated my original statement, and proved it to be correct.
You cannot trademark style or features that gives an advantage, you can trademark color schemes and non-functional styles. In a jacket a green elbow patch does not give any advantage over a red elbow patch to the wearability of the jacket, it can be trademarked. You cannot trademark the fact that your jacket has an elbow patch.
The shape of a boat hull is a technical innovation, it controls the drag and performance of the boat and can (and most probably is) covered in a patent. Use of that shape, without a license, would be a breach of the patent. However, after the patent expires, in 17 to 20 years, depending on the laws of the country it is patented in, the shape of the hull will become public domain and any are free to use it.
What elements of any Rolex case are technical innovations and can be patented? If they were patented, when were they patented and are those patents still in force?
Likewise, what elements of the Rolex case and dial are purely stylistic, offering no advantage in readability, producibility, or seviceability, and are trademarked by Rolex?
That is exactly what patents are for. If I invent a new and different way too make an internal combustion engine (as Wankel did), I can manufacture, sell it, or license its manufacture and sale, exclusively for a set period of time (17 years in the US), after that time, any and all are free to use it without my permission.
Take the co-axial escapement, this is a technical innovation, and is patented by Daniels, he has licensed it to Omega, as long as the patent is in force, no one other that Omega (and Daniels, or maybe not even him, depending on the wording of the license agreement) can make a movement with a co-axial escapement. The day after the patent expires, any company in the world is free to use that design.
And, the terms are very relevant, copyrights cover published works, trademarks cover brand identification, and patents cover technical innovation. The laws as to what is and is not allowable are very different for each case.
Even the works of Breguet:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rotary-mens-watch ... 240%3A1318
Mitsuoka make cars which make you smile (or cry) but they could never be called copies. :wink:,,,, talking of copying cars - Mitsuoka do a line in copies,,, inc Rolls, Bentley, Jag, Daimler etc,,, not even great copies,,,, but no outcry (unless I missed it !)
I tend to agree with the o.p, in that an items design is just that - the design of that item.
If I were a manufacturer, the last thing I’d want in my reputation is "can't design own, so copies others,,,,,,,,"
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Let's be honest, does it really bother any of us? I'm sure the watchmakers of Geneva have the clout and the brigades of Lawyers necessary to take action should they feel it necessary :)
Well, the wording in this website made me smile... :?
http://www.mitsuoka.co.uk/models.php?model=typef
Jim
Have to say they make me smile; you cannot mistake them, unlike so many models these days.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
Puts me in mind of Alphas. All we can draw from this is that these classic watches are a cut above the rest and timeless classics, makes me even more proud to have the real things.
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