Reply With QuoteThanks for posting, dark stuff indeed. The idea of watchmaking sweatshops wasn't really something I had on my radar somehow before watching this.
Thought this was worth sharing, apologies if it's been shared before.
The man in the clip is Andrew McUtchen, founder of Time & Tide. In the clip he speaks candidly about his experience when he began setting up a microbrand some years back, and in particular his experience with a Chinese manufacturer. The relevant portion of the video runs from 43:10 to 51:00 and the below link should take you to the correct time (the embedded video is finicky).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbvd6JyEgJE&t=2590s
(Certainly don't want to tar all Chinese manufacturers or microbrands with the same brush, nor do I think anyone will be particularly surprised about the content; we know this happens and it's not limited to watches. But nevertheless it's an eye opener into how easily it can occur.)
Last edited by M1011; 11th September 2023 at 04:57.
Thanks for posting, dark stuff indeed. The idea of watchmaking sweatshops wasn't really something I had on my radar somehow before watching this.
Western consumers are plain hypocrites. They know sweat shops exist, they know they are used in cheap clothing in particular and yet the shops are full of cheap clothes that are so cheap, they will be worn a few times and thrown away and replaced by another cheap whatever that was made by sweat labour.Originally Posted by neuman356
You often see watch straps up for sale at around £20. Do a breakdown of costs to get that item to you.
Manufacturers cost (labour, materials, overheads and profit)
Foreign export cost.
UK import costs.
UK wholesale cost.
SC sellers profit ( he probably pays no tax nor contributes to the charity)
Postage to buyer.
How much of that paid the wages of the sweat labour out of the total of £20?
Answer - bugger all.
If you bought British, you would pay several times that amount and then you would moan about rip off Britain.
Anyone who has even considered how a cheap mechanical watch can be bought for a hundred quid must surely know this. Even quartz watches of a similar price must be made in sweat shops. so you continue to buy sweat shop and just pretend it does not exist.
Last edited by Mick P; 11th September 2023 at 12:19.
Hmmm. I think it felt too cheap. I think I saw blurry images of small people (in China). It might have been a sweatshop. I’m not sure about any of that though. I didn’t take the time to go there to validate (or otherwise) my fears.
It’s such a non-story. And the bloke in the white top with red writing - can you just actually say what you’re trying to say please?
You can buy plenty of stuff in the price range of 150-250 Euros, quartz and mechanical, that has probably never been touched by single human hand: Seiko, Citizen, Timex, Casio etc., also f.e. you can get Hirsch straps for 30 Euros, they are made in Austria. Imo It's not necessarily that obvious from the price alone how something is made.
You are correct in one way but probably not in another. There may well be factories that buy in sub assemblies and put them together with very little manual input. However those sub assemblies had to come from somewhere and were almost certainly negotiated down to a low price. That is where the sweat shop issue comes in.
Let's be honest the prices some of this stuff sells for it's pretty obvious they are being made in sweat shops, and yes, probably by children with their small hands.
I guess most people choose to ignore it.
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...s-and-the-like
Cheers,
Neil.
If I look at the watches I’ve worn in the last 3 days I’d imagine the BB58 I’m wearing today - whilst labelled Swiss made and we know that means Swiss assembled - is unlikely to have been near a Chinese sweatshop. The Casio frogman I wore yesterday on the beach is labelled as made in Japan and I believe their stuff is all in-house so again unlikely. The Tissot PRX quartz I wore on Saturday says Swiss made on the dial but I’ve no idea what parts the quartz movement is made of, and the case and bracelet are suspiciously good for what I paid brand new from a bricks and mortar UK store. Not suggesting it’s been made in a sweatshop but how would I know? - I guess I’m correlating well made, comparatively cheap with suspicions but could well be totally unfair
This^^
Lots of cheap stuff is made entirely by machines. If you can automate the manufacture of an item, it’s likely to be cheaper to produce than any sweatshop and also be far more consistent in finished product.
Every part of a watch can be made in their thousands, quickly and cheaply by machines, straps particularly so.
I’m not saying that there aren’t sweatshops, we all know that there are, but just because something is cheap, there’s no reason to suggest it was assembled by a child and for peanuts.
Clothing on the other hand, well that’s a different story!
Dave
I agree that we can all use the "we just don't know" argument because we really don't know. However the attached post in Neil.C's posting list lots of people paying for stuff that must have been made for peanuts. You could bet your life that there was sweatshop labour involved in those.
Who makes the cases for Eddie’s watches? Quality that exceeds the already relatively low price point? Sweatshop? Who knows. Will those people in this thread that are putting two and two together and coming up with five going to stop buying TF watches?
There is no proof, just implied by the presenters. It will come as no shock if it's true, but the issue is across a huge amount of goods coming from China. Whilst I think most of the big companies have a decent level of control, it's difficult to trace the source etc.
Last edited by Chris_in_the_UK; 11th September 2023 at 21:39.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I read the title and thought it was some insite into the manufacture of some of the Omega Speedmaster cases…. I guess not.
“ Ford... you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.” HHGTTG
He's a generally sound, level headed chap from what I've seen, so personally I believe his story. But no he doesn't offer cast iron proof.
p.s. the guy in the white top with red writing is George Bamford
It's not hypocritical. It's simply a case that we as consumers choose to ignore where products come from. When was the last time you queried where the parts in your washing machine, car, tv etc. came from? Assuming that you eat meat, when was the last time that you killed and butchered your own dinner? Most people gasp when sweat shops are talked about and are shocked when they see pictures of areas of rain forest that have been desolated by loggers but still won't have a clue what items they own have been made using such methods. Look at all the strikes going on around the country due to a 'cost of living' crisis and imagine what it would be like if everything we used was made in this country. We'd own a lot less and be more focussed on being careful with what we do have. May be that's not such a bad thing.
Exactly.p.s. the guy in the white top with red writing is George Bamford
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Hell Chinese Ev's are winning in Europe by volume but whadabout their HR record, nobody buying one gives a toss, about the Uighers, those suicide nets at Foxcon, the sweatshops, Taiwan etc because their Ev's are affordable relative to other brands, and people want what they want, thoughtlessly like infants.
Sweatshops could pop up anywhere even Bradford lolz as was 'discovered' during covid.
I suspect all consumers are well capable of hypocrisy, offshoring and globalisation do lend themselves conveniently to ''out of sight out of mind'', and the rising middle classes in these growing/emerging economies like India and China, they just want the same crap at the the lowest price as 'western' consumers, already bought into the siren song... I consume, therefore I am.
I remember seeing pictures of children in India making matches 60 years ago. i was a child at the time. Even then, though, and at that age, I wondered what the families of those children would do if that albeit small income was taken away from them?
The world isnt fair and probably never will be. Many on here have far more than the average person. Many of those will have gained that money at the expense of lesser earners. That's the way capitalism works...
Thanks for posting - I had no idea that there was a dark side to this industry.
Seriously!.......you say that and mean & believe it.What industry would you perhaps expect it,clothing has already been mentioned.The fact is its usually as were sat with a fully tummy and a glass of wine whilst watching an expose about something that we then do know,but we have the choice to switch channels and say.
I had no idea that there was a dark side to that industry.
And get back to our reality........consume consume consume,buy buy buy,cheap cheap cheap.
Last edited by P9CLY; 12th September 2023 at 12:08.
I wouldn't classify the 470% to 610% markup, that the guy in the video was calculating with, as cheap.
I recently had some goodies manufactured in China via Alibaba. I've always been a buy British kind of guy but to have these particular things machined in the UK would have cost many 1ks more and then been totally unsellable. I was totally up-front with my customers about where the grunt work of the product was done and they were obviously happy with getting it at a decent and more importantly, fair price.
If an individual wants to make something here in the UK its almost like going overseas is forced upon us, or it just doesn't get made. Manufacturing costs here are so bloomin high!!
I had a great experience with my lead, it could not have gone smoother. We can all see why people go to China when its cheap, quick and easy.
I heard a story, I dont know if there is any truth in it, about a chap who bought a genuine Omega bracelet from an AD only to find a made in China sticker on the package. If thats true I don't know but it would not surprise me one single bit.
In many respects geographic origin is less important than supply chain due diligence and visibility. There are some very good engineering businesses in China that aren’t sweat shops and they have the ability to turn out components for all sorts of things at very reasonable prices. If you are a manufacturer and can put boots on the ground to check the paperwork and conditions, then we shouldn’t turn up our noses at Chinese manufacturers. Of course there is bad practice over there but we have issues here too with unscrupulous gangmasters in fishing and farming etc. If the end user is scrupulous and has done proper due diligence, then it’s as sound as sourcing from elsewhere. If an end user doesn’t have that kind of visibility when you ask, then vote with your feet or take the risk - the choice is yours.
Even though we all know it to be true, having someone like yourself experience this first hand is so depressing. I know Eddie has said his person in Asia is fantastic with efficient lead times and high quality products. My mate has a fairly large and successful business and it's massively cheaper for him to import the items he sells than source them in the UK, even with shipping and admin costs taken into account. Massively cheaper. Very sad times.
My Father In Law has a business selling and installing bicycle parking street furniture to businesses and local authorities etc.
He used to get all his stuff made in Rotherham/Sheffield, but costs escalated and escalated just as competition was driving down what he could charge for them.
He bit the bullet and visited some suppliers in China via a trade fair organised by a chamber of commerce over there, and he was blown away by the professionalism, skill and organisation on offer. All his stuff is now made in China and shipped over here, and from what he could tell it’s a well looked after workforce who make his and other folks stuff with good quality and care.
It’s cheaper, even with current shipping costs, but labour and raw materials are cheaper over there as is the cost of living. Are the workers being exploited, or are they just doing honest jobs for the going rate?
I know as a proud Yorkshireman he’d much rather they were still being made here in the UK, and the design work is still, but it was that or wind down the business.
Ask the average person in the street about Uighers and they won't have a clue what you are talking about and let's face it, China are far from the only country who treat their natives with disdain. Those people in the street won't know about suicide nets either or why any reference to Taiwan would be more than a discussion about a country. Northern Ireland isn't too far removed from that type of discussion either and we probably shouldn't mention Hong Kong. Ignorance isn't hypocrisy, it's simply ignorance.
Ah, the irony of the British mentality. Mass strikes because we're not getting paid enough according to us and then we complain because everything is too expensive. Does one not lead to the other? That UK company would be more than happy to make a product for you at a fair price if their staff were happy to take home £20 per month in wages. We manufacture less and less in the UK simply because we're not prepared to pay for it and then we go into panic mode when the world economy shuts down due to a pandemic and we start fighting over toilet rolls ffs. Use it or lose it, it's that simple. China will be laughing all the way to the bank because they know that one day we'll all be totally reliant on them. They'll be able to do what they want and we won't be able to do a thing about it.
Until costs in China rise towards western levels and world manufacturing moves to India or Africa.
Suggest you have that discussion with the man himself.
Maybe but China´s currently. hehe...got the lock on lithium, rare earth metals, batteries and they´ve had years of the belt and road initiative to develop influence, a grip even on parts of Africa...He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Ignorance is bliss but then the unexamined life´s not worth living...really it can be quite the dilemma, paradox, challenge.
Last edited by Passenger; 13th September 2023 at 09:27.
Same thing happened with Japan.
Back in the day it was a place for manufactured cheap goods. As wages went up buyers moved to Hong Kong and Korea. Now China.
Where next? Indonesia, Pakistan, Philippines?
Cheers,
Neil.
Already happening. Just before the pandemic, Chinese workers unions started appearing. That's a sure sign of wage rises and improving working conditions. Manufacturing is already moving to India and South America. Not so much Africa as it's not as easily controllable as companies have found out trying to mine various valuable materials there.
China of course are playing the game and using lots of their expendable finance to buy into major players in these areas.
all my opinion of course ;-)
That's a whole other conversation for another thread and entirely depends on the person living it.
The flooring industry is the same, most European oak floors are still made in China. They purchase the oak from France / Belgium and ship to China. It is then cut into veneers and made into the correct format and then either shipped back unfinished or they can also put the finish on. They do all of this at a very low cost, as a rough example a European herringbone from a decent mill is £50-£60 a m2, the same product from China would be £25-£35 a m2, scale that up to ordering thousands of m2 and the savings are huge. The cost of their finishing is maybe £1 a m2, where anything finished in the UK or Europe would be £5-10 a m2. The only benefit to actual European oak is the lengths, you can get 3m planks easily from Europe but due to container sizes and costs a Chinese planks tend to always be 1.9m.
But as the oak is European it is not false advertising, but its also not 100% transparent.
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