Reply With QuoteAll of course true, but Bitcoin is perfect for the storage of illegal capital for all the obvious reasons.Originally Posted by demonloop
With the utmost respect its not even close to being possible.
How can you trace 100 dollar bills?
Same can be said of anything that has an agreed value - gold, silver, land, how much of those is a store of money gotten by illegal
Means?
All of course true, but Bitcoin is perfect for the storage of illegal capital for all the obvious reasons.
I wouldn’t say it’s any more perfect than cash, and requires conversion from cash/fiat at some
point. Cash can be handed from criminal without any paper trail whatsoever. I accept that bitcoin is harder to find than physical cash, and easier to transact in larger amounts but I’d say the amount of value in Btc v Usd that’s from illegality would be negligible.
Yes, but you don't price anything in it, you will calculate the amount due because you account in fiat. Anyone paying will also have to buy the bitcoin and will value the item purchased in fiat as well. Pretty nonsensical to me.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
All accepted. But only true because money (as we know it today) is the prevailing accepted way to transfer “value” from one person to another. Things change though, and this may not always be the case. Bitcoin (and all cryptocurrency) is trying to disrupt this system.
With a success of zero until now. After 12 years, no meaningful percentage of legitimate transfers has transferred to bitcoin. Not even a tenth of 1%. So much for disruption.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Authority control of money supply has been happening for 4000 years. The current central bank system for several hundred years. 12 years is a blink in comparison.
PS: I sound like a massive advocate for Bitcoin here, but I’m really not - I can see it’s flaws and it’s good points. I just think it’s a more than decent punt for putting away a few quid for 5-10 years.
Dunno, with zero adoption after 12 years, I cannot see the disruption.
I understand the argument of finite supply, but that makes only sense of there is also inherent value. And so far, that one seems to be limited to the greater fool theory, which is a bit weak in my book. And that could lead to a musical chairs moment for bitcoin.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
If BTC was the only crypto coin there was, I could see it gaining some good traction in the real world, but the very fact that there are well over 1000 other “coins” just makes the whole crypto thing a bit of a dogs dinner.
The fact there seem to be coins called all manner of crazy names that were set up by all manner of crazy people, makes the whole thing quite hard to take seriously.
Just had a look on here....
https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/
.....out of interest. Last time I looked there were just over 1000 coins.
Now there are over 3000.
It really does make crypto ridiculous. That must be about 100 times more “currencies” than there are in fiat, surely?
Bitcoin just happens to be the biggest, first, most well known one, but when there are 3000+ other ones all trying to be as big as BTC.....does it just seem silly?
I am sure there were a lot more DOT.COMs - most just petered out, as I suspect most cryptos will too.
It's just a matter of time...
Why is this relevant? If I decide to launch 4000 more crypto currencies next week does that devalue Bitcoin? I can’t see how it does.
There’s 4 million registered companies in the UK, last year almost 700k were registered and 500k were deregistered.
In other words, some ventures work, some don’t. Same as crypto.
Bitcoin has gained "network" effect. It now has a market cap larger than Visa too. Length of time it has existed and value gives it a greater chance of not disappearing, but we have stocks like Tesla too as a counter argument.
I have misgivings about Bitcoin, but I have greater misgivings about the devaluation of GBP and USD. So a no brainer to buy and hold as a hedge.
Barring the word "yuppie" this is a great article regarding psychology of buying into BTC. My lack of trust of the fiat system puts me on one of the sides of the bell curve.
https://www.citadel21.com/why-the-yu...ismiss-bitcoin
What is the market cap of bitcoin? How on earth can you compare that to a company? That is not apples versus pears, it is apples versus elephants.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Visa is a monetary payment network. Bitcoin is a monetary payment network (but also a store of value). I would say yes there are comparable elements.
Beyond that, what is the market cap of gold? $9t? What is the market cap of the bond market? $120t? Again I would say there are comparable elements.
Visa is a company. It's marketcap is what investors are prepared to pay for the company, valuing its future profits.
Bitcoin is a "currency" (it isn't, but for the sake of making my argument that's the closest I can come up with). What you call marketcap is the total value of currency in circulation. Compare that to the dollar's marketcap ($1.5 trillion notes in circulation or $80 trillion book money - I argue is the latter to compare with because bitcoins argument is that there is no book money).
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
It isn’t really relevant, as you say.
But the fact there are over three thousand other crypto currencies, does give BTC less credibility as THE new non-fiat currency of the world.
I don’t follow that logic. There could be 10 million cryptos, and Bitcoin would still have just as much credibility; and still it is by far the market leader.
It's just a matter of time...
The comparison is the payment rails being set up as BTC gains wider acceptance. That has value (much like Visa does as one of the primary payment rails). By holding BTC you can use its rail and also add value to the BTC network.
The investors and future profits analogy is becoming disjointed. I would prefer a world where value investing was still commonplace, but the behaviour of the markets now is a direct corollary to monetary stimulus. The impacts of lockdown and future GDP being lower is not filtering back to stock prices. Investors now seem to prefer to hold shares rather than USD - and they hold prime property, rolexes, classic cars or crypto too rather than USD.
Absolutely this. The "Network" effect is in play here.
Facebook won the Social Network effect. Google and others tried to challenge them and failed because Facebook had the established network.
Twitter is the instant Communications Network. There are other challengers, but they tend to fill niche areas rather than challenging outright.
Bitcoin is establishing itself as the trusted Monetary Network. Other crypto can exist and fill roles, but most will disappear due to lack of network effect.
I agree that Bitcoin has established itself, but not as a monetary network, it’s a investment commodity to most people / investors, buying it to get on the investment bandwagon, not to use as a currency. It would be interesting to see how much is actually spent as currency and not just traded.
Cheers..
Jase
Without wanting to appear too intrusive or indeed ask you to reveal any commercial secrets, are you able to provide any insight into Jason's musing?
And also, if you did get paid in crypto, would you keep it ( speculating it may appreciate) or cash it in for regular money?
Cheers..
Jase
Sorry but none of this makes sense.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Nothing much to reveal really. Since offering it as a payment method maybe 3/4 years ago, we’ve had less than 10 sales via Bitcoin. At least 3 I can remember were people wanting to “get rid” of Bitcoin they’d bought on a whim years earlier. 2 were international sales and it was cheaper to send Bitcoin than do a bank transfer (both customers bought the Bitcoin solely for the purpose of paying for their orders)
Last edited by demonloop; 28th December 2020 at 17:55.
Bitcoin is a Fiat currency.
Is stand corrected (again). I’m sure it wasn’t initially called a fiat currency but certainly seems to be now. Did a fiat currency have to be government issued prior to the crypto emergence?
All I can say is, I wish I’d bought some yesterday (or last year).
Nearly 20% up so far today!
Yes, I'd be interested to know why some now call it a fiat currency.
BTW, from what I can see it's only up maximum of ~4% (if that) today.
A Fiat currency is money that has no intrinsic value, I.e. that isn’t backed by a commodity, historically gold.
Fiat currency is usually government backed.
I think people think Bitcoin is a non-fiat currency because it isn’t government issued.
The key “quality” of a fiat currency is that it has no intrinsic value, its value is based on trust.
Most currency survives because it is backed by government but history is full of examples of governments who have trashed their own currency hence why gold has been popular for a few thousand years.
Bitcoin has no government backing so if it all disappears as a result of some hack or fraud there is no comeback.
That looks like a Wikipedia definition, others on finance (and indeed crypto) websites state that a fiat currency is issued by a government.
XBT tracker up 15% today.
I think much of that was carried over from after the close on Christmas Eve.
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-s...n-tracker-euro
It's the best performing asset in my SIPP up nearly 100% in a couple of months. I wonder what it will be like in 15 yrs i think either zero or hero haha...
No, I wrote that in response to the misunderstandings.
The definition of fiat money has been around much longer than Bitcoin. They can’t rewrite the definitions.
The key feature of a fiat currency is that it has no intrinsic value, not that its government backed.
Most fiat currencies, prior to crypto currencies, are government backed.
Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and relies on confidence alone.
Last edited by Montello; 28th December 2020 at 18:42.
Very interesting, thank you. From that synopsis I'm guessing payment is made directly to yourself, as opposed to using one of the commercial gateways?
For what it's worth the only purchase I've ever made using btc was (somewhat ironically) an early hardware wallet, just over 4 years ago. Whilst it was through a small retail website, payment was via a simple personal transfer. The price in btc that I paid was a mutually agreed figure based on the sterling retail price.
I realise there is no intrinsic value etc.
If definitions are being rewritten it's by those who consider crypto to be fiat money.
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.
Clearly Bitcoin is a fiat currency, but even if people are trying to build an argument otherwise the fact remains that the value of a Bitcoin is defined by what someone is prepared to pay for one.
I think it’s become something it never set out to be which is a speculative asset to store capital.
It’s clearly the current hot asset and given the massive amount of new money being printed by government a proportion of that is flowing into Bitcoin as people look to make a quick buck by riding the hot asset.
If Bitcoin wasn’t so volatile I’d probably hold some as an inflation hedge but it’s too hot for me currently.
Last edited by Montello; 28th December 2020 at 20:18.
Yes that’s correct, the customer probably saved 3-5% on bank fees/extortionate exchange rates and we saved a Ł25 fee this end.
We just agreed on the rate on the day of payment.
What is more mind boggling is all the capital that has been sunk into cryptos you have never even heard of.
Check out this list. I expect the winner maybe in there somewhere.
https://coinmarketcap.com/
The “market cap” does not mean that money has actually been spent in any meaningful sense at all - it’s simply the circulating supply multiplied by the exchange price. Thus a crypto currency with a supply of a billion coins and one coin has changed hands on an exchange at a price of $1 has a “market cap” of $1 billion. However a billion dollars hasn’t been spent, one dollar has!
Market cap is a terrible measure really.
You could even join the lottery and roll one of your very own.
https://github.com/tiagosh/AltcoinGenerator
Yes I understand that, but the fact remains a good chunk of capital is stored in crypto.
I would expect a number of the smaller ones are subject to some manipulation.
I agree the store of value aspect is the main driver for uptake. Other aspects are starting to mature. It is establishing itself as a monetary settlement layer. Lightning Network will help and increase TPS. Additional speed will be possible via other layers or coins. There is a balance between security and scalability.
Simply not true. Adoption is zero. Not even one thousands of one percent of transactions globally are processed via crypto of any kind.
If it were, what value would bitcoin be? Would you ascribe zero chance to this happening too?
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Pretty much zero chance.
It is too slow and too expensive for mass payments. Not a chance against established payment methods and all the fintechs.
And I will never understand why bitcoin would surge in value if it was adopted as medium of payment. Does the Dollar or the Euro fluctuate with its adoption rate as means of payment?
Additionally you can't pay your taxes in bitcoins/other crypto.
That would still be only a means of payment rather than adoption as currency - as the payer would buy the BTC for the purpose and the recipient would seel as soon as received.
But why would anyone? BTC is incredibly expensive for payment and the exchange rate volatility is a major problem as you never know what you pay. Already moments after fixing the amount, the rate will have moved away and both parties have a risk.
Yup I really don't get its purpose/utility/value beyond speculative/ponzi/crim applications.
Last edited by Passenger; 29th December 2020 at 15:03.
Same here.
I get the technology, which is sort of interesting but so far there is absolutely zero interest from the real world to use it for anything (none of the existing/planned security transaction adaptations use BTC)
I get the scarcity, but that only makes it a valid investment if there is an inherent value. I don't see any, not even adaptation as currency or means of payment would increase the value of the underlying unit
Still, I see a lot of demand and that will likely lead to even higher prices short/medium term - solely based on the speculation that a bigger fool is around the corner to take it from you. Nevertheless, I have not seen any reason to change my long-term price target of zero.
However, you can be liable to pay taxes on bitcoins/other crypto.
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...or-individuals
(Depending on where you pay your taxes, of course.)
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