Reply With QuoteOriginally Posted by ryanb741
I might well have left sufficient time to allow for the challenges of London traffic...
In that case I would have beeped way before two minutes and overtaken at a decent width. If not possible to overtake due to how far they were out I would have held the horn until they moved.
I might well have left sufficient time to allow for the challenges of London traffic...
My wife was driving. If you have a wife you'll be aware that timeliness is the exception not the norm
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I do, and I am, which doesn’t mean a cyclist should ride in the gutter to allow cars to pass at any point to allow for their tardiness does it?
Had you considered this was this cyclists regular commute and they had already experienced a number of close ‘punishment’ passes and has taken the call that primary is the safest action on that stretch?
I'd imagine most unselfish cyclists would be appalled if they thought they were holding up a line of cars who clearly had somewhere to be. There were at least 20 cars behind me. The road was plenty wide enough.
We weren't late, I was citing wives being punctual to try and cover your assertion that people should leave home early in case a random cyclist decides to behave like an self centred a*hole with more elegance than it deserves.
The fact is the cyclist was lucky it was my fairly placid wife who was driving. If she'd pulled that stunt in front of white van man or uber man she'd possibly be having a very bad day now.
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I take great issue with this - the roads in the People's Republic of Lewisham are so terrible these days, you need a 4x4 with serious ground clearance to be able to drive on them at all...Almost as silly as having a big SUV to drive around London
More generally, I subscribe to the theory that an idiot is an idiot, irrespective of their mode of transport. I see a poor or dangerous cyclist, driver or pedestrian and I file them under "prat" and move on. My opinion wouldn't matter a damn to them, so... Shrug.
It's been a long time since I rode a bike on anything other than a mainly-deserted rural road. About 25 years ago I was knocked off my bike (by a C-reg baby-blue Sierra, in case it was you) and quite badly hurt, and that rather put me off. A few years back I was also hit by a cyclist when crossing Bishopsgate (at a pedestrian crossing, with the green man lit, FAOD). That hurt quite a lot, too.
I think the main issue with all of this is impatience. It gets to us all, I'm the first to admit that it gets me, but if we can recognise it for what it is, and remember that being 30 seconds later than planned to our destination really doesn't matter at all, maybe the roads will become generally less fraught. Also, fundamentally, I know that whatever I'm driving, a cyclist would come off worse in any collision, so really the onus is on me to make them as safe as possible, irrespective of whether they're in the right.
Maybe it's just me, but if I were to hit a red-light-running cyclist and KSI them, the fact that it was 100% their fault for running a red light wouldn't ease my conscience a millimetre. So I keep my eyes open, awareness as good as I can, and give cyclists loads of space. "AMAP" as my driving instructor used to put it when talking about giving bikes room when overtaking: As Much As Possible.
To those who do run red lights etc., I hope your luck holds, and the time and inconvenience saved is worth it.
This thread has surprised me, I have always thought the membership of this forum to be intelligent and balanced people.
This thread is riddled with bigotry, intolerance, ignorance, selfishness and some who are happy to act with a total disregard for others safety.
There are morons who ride bicycles, and there are morons who drive cars ... but fortunately on the whole most people are sensible balanced human beings.
To hate a person or to hold a prejudice against a group because they choose to ride a bicycle is not something I can compute.
But then we live in a society where we have racists, sexists, fascists etc so there is simply no accounting for some fringes of society.
In our case we have a 7 year old son with profound autism as well as other life threatening health issues which means that we need a lot of space as we carry a lot of medication, objects to distract/soothe him as well as the fact that due to sensory processing issues related to his autism he needs a lot of space else it freaks him out.I take great issue with this - the roads in the People's Republic of Lewisham are so terrible these days, you need a 4x4 with serious ground clearance to be able to drive on them at all...
.
I'd much rather be driving around congested London streets in a Tesla Model 3 (not least because I'd actually be able to park the car in town) but sadly the space is needed
Last edited by ryanb741; 23rd November 2020 at 14:17.
I agree with you completely. Unfortunately the thread has panned out exactly the same as I thought it would right from the OP. Because it always does.
Ryan, let’s clarify a few things. It was you who raised the time constraint issue not me, I pointed out that more time would allow for the vagaries of London traffic in general, not limited to cyclists opting to take the primary position.
Referring to cyclists as “ self centred a*hole ” does you a significant disservice.
As for your hypothetical white van or uber man if they were unable to perform a safe pass they would (also) be self centred a*holes...
In your view how far from the kerb should this cyclist have been to prevent them from being an inconvenience?
Last edited by Captain Morgan; 23rd November 2020 at 14:32. Reason: Also...
I wasn't referring to all cyclists as self centred a holes just this one. My theory is she may have done it because we were in a white Range Rover. The road is wider than my pic made it look - it was a phone pic taken from a slightly elevated position. She could have been 50 cm from the pavement and I guess cars could get past her a metre or so alongside (in any case no oncoming traffic so they could have gone slightly into the opposite lane - now they'd have to be fully in the opposite lane with her being right in the middle).
To put it into context that delay could have affected couriers, people going to work, people late for an interview, people going to a medical appointment etc. It may seem trivial but that all adds up and costs a lot of money in missed deliveries, appointments etc and obviously whilst that won't be the case for one cyclist if one imagines this at scale across the UK the costs are high.
The actual answer lies somewhere along the path of providing better cycling infrastructure - more dedicated lanes etc.
You have my sympathies in regard to your son, but to suggest that you need a Range Rover to drive him to school actually made me lol.
I'm surprised that Ryan feels the need to justify what he drives around London or any city.
"Why do you drive a Rangerover?" "Because - I can!"
It’s just a theory though right, so equally as valid as mine, in fact if you look she has high vis cycling clothing on, a helmet and luggage rack so you could easily suggest they are a regular cyclist/commuter and has experienced ‘punishment’ passing in that area previously.
.5m is the minimum recommended distance cyclists should be from the kerb, in fact 0.5-1m is the recommended distance unless riding in the primary position where you ~1/5-2/3 into the lane. The advised gap to overtake is 1.5m.
You’ve just cut there ability to navigate the road safely and reduced your ability to safely pass them for the sake of 1m, often we are not good at judging distance a 1m could be .75m
Also consider where folk try and squeeze past a cyclist they are often expecting to be accommodated by on coming traffic making room, and when they don’t it’s the cyclist who generally feels the pinch.
I’m not sure if you cycle but I’m usually more than .5m out from the kerb (especially if passing parked cars, having a door opened into you will give you a very bad day), glass, drains and potholes can all lead to a bad day, if being overtaken with insufficient space.
As for all the lost time, delivery’s, interviews and medical procedures, well those who fail to plan plan to fail, no?
Cyclists are encouraged by the Department for Transport to ride centrally.
Drivers should always be fully in the opposite lane when overtaking a cyclist.
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FAOD Ryan, I wasn't having a go at you for driving an SUV. Considering that I drive an XC90 that would've been a touch hypocritical! I merely meant to poke fun at the parlous state of Lewisham's roads... I think the whole point of the thread is that, as long as it's legal, we can drive or pedal whatever we bloody well like on the road - it is (so far) a free country after all - but we should all try to do so with consideration for others top-of-mind.
Last edited by PreacherCain; 23rd November 2020 at 17:13.
Here are a couple of close passes inflicted on me - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kS7vRT71Ik&t=11s
The wide angle video always make them look a bit further away - but trust me these were terrible.
Before I opened the link I had a little bet with myself.... BMW or Range Rover.
Suprise,surprise!
They were pretty squeaky!
This sucks, people don’t realise how often this happens...
I just got back from a bike ride. Today, I got overtaken by 3 large trucks (not quite lorry size but large) in a row, overtaking me properly - went to the other lane completely, it was the right thing to do. Right after them, and idiot in small Toyota (might have been a Hyundai) trying to overtake me, but clearly not having enough time to safely do so due to oncoming traffic. This was basically stupid and dangerous, but they decided to go for it anyway and cut me off. Twat.
Now, where’s that drivers shaming thread?
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Jeez those to BMW's were scarily close. That's terrible - imagine a gust of wind had blown either you towards them or them towards you. That is for sure bad driving
Sadly a all to common occurrence, it doesn’t take too many of them to either get folk of their bikes or encourage them to cycle out, which unfortunately impacts drivers who do pass considerately.
What about failing to plan for the red mist you generate? For 50 drivers who will be inconvenienced but will swallow it you will find at least one who'll try his luck at passing the cyclist regardless. This will have consequences for both, but chances are that the most painful ones will be for the cyclist.
I used to sail a lot. Sailboats have the right of way on all motorised traffic in open water except for a trawling ship. We crossed the Channel many times. Guess how many times we even considered exercising our right of way? That's right, none.
The saying is "Might is right". It keeps sailors alive.
I am genuinely astonished that some people are so self conscious they will jeopardise their own safety this way. When I cycle, if I have a car behind me that cannot pass, I move out of the way at the first opportunity. The resulting delay is literally seconds, we usually wave to each other and all is fine, I stay healthy, the driver doesn't see his blood pressure rise like Saturn V and all is well. I do not feel humiliated by having had to stop, nor do I believe I p*ssed my legitimate rights against the wall.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Only on narrow roads
Cyclists are encouraged by the Department for Transport to ride centrally.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I thought you'd cut your hair & given up the cherry Chapstick?
______
Jim.
In London you’ll eventually come across someone who takes punishment further than a close pass. There are people that will think nothing of stopping their car, retrieving a large bat or sharp object from the boot before at best threatening you with it.
When riding in the primary position, trainees should travel at a reasonable speed, as part of the traffic flow. If, however, traffic is building up behind them and the road ahead is clear, they may wish to move to the secondary position to avoid obstructing other road-users unnecessarily.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
If a cyclist shows respect and consideration for other drivers than I always afford the same in return. If for some bizarre reason they think its okay to be an idiot in front of a 3 ton fast moving chunk of metal, well more fool them. you reap what you sow.
^^^^^^^
You might want to be careful with the pictures of cyclists with extra kit....G&D.
It's the nose of the bicycle seat. Hardly 'extra kit'...
______
Jim.
Whoosh!!!!
Having been born and bred there I’ve not seen that yet, mind I wouldn’t say it’s never happened, though you could always be ‘wetted’ or ‘gatted’ as a innocent bystander or for your Rolex, life is as they say a rich tapestry.
The Highway Code is being revised and likely to advise cycling two abreast (depending on the circumstances):
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/new-h...ts-go-two-two/
I blame it on my dirty mind and the expectation that everyone else has the same!Whoosh!!!!
I have no problem with that. The same applies to all traffic which moves slower than the remaining flow.
The word ‘May’ shows it is optional though in my experience most oblige.
I agree with you (up to a point) but it’s the idiot in the 3 ton fast moving chunk of metal who is the biggest problem.
After all they kill 5 people a day, cyclists on average .5-1 person a year.
As you say, you reap what you sow.
Unfortunately that sort of pass is by no means unusual. I’ve had a lot worse. On more than one occasion a vehicle has actually come in contact with me when riding. Fairly recently I was cycling along at 28mph when a car started to overtake me. It was only passing me at a speed not much faster than my own, maybe 30mph. I was concerned because there was an oncoming car and at that level of speed difference there was no way that the passing car was going to have completed the overtaking manoeuvre before reaching the oncoming car. Rather than speed up or drop back, the driver decided to drift across towards me & drive me off the side of the road. I was about the level of the passenger door & looked into the car & saw a very worried looking child in the passenger seat. I had my right elbow resting on the car window and my tyres were literally skimming the kerb on the left. When I caught the car up further down the road the driver insisted that she’d given me ‘loads of room’. This is what we’re up against.
This is exactly how I act and every other cyclist I know ... it’s the considerate and normal thing to do.
However, we have to accept there are a minority of idiots out there and we should not tar a whole group with the actions of the minority.
Where you and I differ is that should I get stuck behind such a goon when driving I will show patients and wait where as you have already stated you’d force your way through with no consideration for the safety of the cyclist as they were asking for it through their road position ... can you not see how that reflects on you?
I do not believe it is up to someone else, be it a cyclist or anyone else, to tell me when it is safe to pass. If we were talking about no visibility, winding road, where the cyclists in front have a better view of incoming traffic, that is fine.
Also I use specifically a case because I encounter it reasonably frequently where 2 rides abreast on a straight but narrow single carriageway (but double lane) making it impossible for me to leave them the space I offer to any cyclist.
I ALWAYS pass them with 4 wheels in the lane for incoming traffic, except if specifically invited to do so by the rider when the other lane doesn't exist.
I just do the same if instead they choose to ride 2 abreast. I haven't yet met the type of rider Ryan took a picture of, but the second rider is quite often where she is. I still pass if it would have been safe to do so had they been either in primary or secondary position on the road.
But let's be clear: I take responsibility for my actions. I just assume, wrongly or not, that others do too.
Last edited by Saint-Just; 23rd November 2020 at 19:46.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Ever since having to this myself in a ditch as a teenager, I’ve been very aware of cyclists. I was cycling on a single carriage road at NSL, not about being overtaken, but the lady coming towards me decided to overtake the car in front of her.
She was fully in my lane coming at me at well over the speed limit. I literally had a choice of metal impact or hedge. Decided life was more important. Still think about her lack of awareness.
I also put myself entirely on the other side of the road. If they have been idiots in their behaviour, this may be at 8k revs and exhaust valve opened though.
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My commute brings me down a short hill close to my home which has a particularly shoddy road surface so the line I am forced to take is not ideal and may have the potential to hold up cars. I am fully aware of that.
At the bottom is a roundabout at which I turn right. Immediately after the road widens considerably, before narrowing a short time later, so I move far left to allow any cars to pass whilst I build up speed from a stop.
By the narrowing Ive generally reached 30mph which In am able to maintain for the short distance to the next lights, so merge back in with traffic. I then turn into the road I live off which has a well observed 20mph limit.
All nice and friendly and no one gets wound up.
Last edited by SydR; 23rd November 2020 at 20:15.
No one is telling you what to do ... you are telling us what you would do ... making a close pass “without any consideration” and using phrases like “well, too bad” and “too close for comfort ... so be it” ...
Maybe consider that the cyclist has a reason for being in a certain position, or is simply unaware you are behind them or perhaps doesn’t even realise you are desperate to get past ... you assume they are wilfully attempting to impede you which is probably unlikely.
They are another human and even if they are riding inconsiderately, in your opinion, they still have a right to feel safe.
People get way too impatient and wound up behind the wheel ... try relaxing and you will probably enjoy your journey more.
I’m certain even though you imply you would have no conscience if you injured someone I’m pretty sure you’d feel bad if you killed or disabled someone.
Last edited by Montello; 23rd November 2020 at 20:19.
“Cyclists see considerably more of this beautiful world than any other class of citizens. A good bicycle, well-applied, will cure most ills this flesh is heir to.”
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.”
"It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle. "
“The bicycle is the most civilised conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remain pure in heart.”
“When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking.”
“Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race.”
“cycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There’s something wrong with a society that drives a car to work out in a gym.”
"No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle."
“Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live.”
Last edited by bry nylon; 23rd November 2020 at 20:45.
Don’t put words in my mouth that I never expressed.
I wouldn’t be pleased. I said I take responsibility for my actions. I hope they do to, is all. But I’ll make sure they hear me, instead of having a conversation.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I’m not putting words into your mouth, I’m merely holding a mirror up to your views ...
Everyone should show consideration to fellow humans ... no one, regardless of any selfishness acts, deserves to be on the receiving end of a close pass which could have serious consequences.
Don’t flatter yourself. You did no such thing:
I’ll start by respecting anyone. If I am shown respect in return all is well. If not I will not turn the other cheek.
People need to understand actions have consequences. I’ll accept the consequences of mine. I hope whoever acts deliberately like an idiot on his bike in front of a car does the same.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I doubt anyone acts deliberately like an idiot in front of a car on a bike ... sure some idiots out there but most stupidity is usually unconscious.
You really ought to worry about idiots in cars, lorries and busses as they represent considerably more risk to you.
Your doubts are seriously misplaced.
Other than that, I agree that idiots in cars, buses and lorries are considerably more risk to me.
But that was not the issue.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Aye ... some views are beyond my comprehension and many are not open to understanding or giving others consideration.
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