I used to work in a second hand watch shop as the in-house watch maker. Working on the movements day in day out certainly helps the buyers, I just had to open a watch to tell instantly on the really good fakes.
To the people talking about fake movements getting as good for less money, I can't see it being easily done myself.
For example the 'generic' wheels that cousins sell are very easily identified visually when stripping a watch, not talking about how often they are out of round and the pivots really poorly polished.
The finish and bevels on for example the pallet fork would be hard to replicate without serious investment in very very expensive custom made tools. Sure they could get close, but anyone who works on these movements regularly will be able to spot the differences.
It doesn't help the general public, but take the time piece to a trusted place who regularly works on the watches and they will be able to tell you.
As Haywood has said, take it to a standard watch reseller or agent and good luck, they may know less than you. Take it to a known expert or trusted watchmaker.
They have the best secondary market in the industry, thanks to A. High quality products B. Excellent after sales service available, reasonably priced. C. Parts supply for old watches is excellent, still making parts for watches sold in the early 60's.
Just as an example all precious metal bracelets Rolex take in trade and pay you more per gram of metal than scrap value. Ditto gem-set dials where you get 40% of the current list price of the dial in discount if you trade in your old dial. I'm not sure any other outfits do that...
That would be awesome. I could pick up every discontinued model I want for 1/10th their current price.
Why do you care either way? It's not like you're a Rolex shareholder. Some of this stuff comes off as classic concern trolling. Rolex does what they do - don't like it? Move on to a brand that does a better job matching your expectations.
Consumers should want the best possible watches and the lowest possible prices - at least the rational ones. If a bunch of dumb buyers worrying about fakes is a mechanism to that end - fine. Smart collectors will be fine.
There's nothing strange about that.
Easy solution. We agree on a price, you ship to my well known and respected watchmaker, I put the money in an escrow account. If the watch passes muster, escrow closes and you get your money. If not, watch goes back.
You're making a problem where there isn't one. On the other hand, a secondary market with less stupid buyers is going to be much more efficient - more like it was around the year 2000.
Whilst I don’t agree with their practices of retaining spare links, straps, five extensions etc, they are not actually committing any crime.
The whole package belongs to WF and how they choose to sell each part is entirely their own decision. They have no obligation to sell the boxes and papers with the watches either should they choose not to.
We might not like it and it’s good to be aware of the practice but there really isn’t anything that can be done about it.
Nobody said it was a crime.
It's just a grubby practice.
You know they do it, so you are trading on their terms and that is a simple fact of life.
If you don't like their terms, go somewhere else. If enough people do that, they may change their practice but as it stands it is a commercial decision and both parties can go along with it or not. Nobody is being forced to trade, it's your choice.
It’s still reasonable to complain about such a policy here, and if enough people do, and it keeps coming up in searches, they may rethink it. Breaking up full sets is hardly the way to gain the admiration of the community here. Ultimately it encourages anyone selling to them to remove and sell the links themselves first, and before you know it, no watches have any matching spare links. If they want to come to this forum and start posting to ‘build a relationship with the customers’, the first step would be to listen to them.
But how does the customer know they do it? They don't openly admit it, they offer a sizing service which sound like a plus, not a minus, but neglect to mention the removal of links once the watch is sized. Most less informed buyers wont notice until they come to sell the watch and wonder why they are getting static from those with bigger wrists about the 6.75" bracelet sizing (or whatever), particularly those who have had several links removed in the first place. If you are a gorilla then you will probably have no issue but it could make a watch sized for a smaller wrist effectively unsaleable since some links can be cripplingly expensive to obtain. Gold Rolex links anyone? If you go to ebay to look for them, surprise surprise one of the biggest suppliers is Watchfinder...
Firstly I have already said that they may change their practice, there is no need to tell me what I wrote 5 minutes ago.
They could argue that by retaining and re selling links etc, they are able to sell the watch cheaper.
Also there is a thing called negotiation. You tell them you want a full set or it's no deal. Again it is your choice.
You negotiate and cover your arse - it's hardly rocket science. If you buy a decent watch, the ultimate is the watch fully serviced, full papers and tags and the full amount of links. Is it really that difficult to ask for that up front. They will either supply as asked or will haggle.
I say again, how are the vast majority of buyers who are not on watch forums supposed to be aware of this policy which may materially effect them negatively come sale or trade in time? Clairvoyance? Not everyone has your all knowing powers or is it just a case of I'm all right Jack. As noted above it is a grubby practice which does them no credit. They are bigger and better than this or at least should be.
Unrelated to this thread but I'd like to say that your videos are excellent, definitely some of the best watch content on Youtube. I'd be interested in knowing more about the background to the videos, introduce the narrator, show the camera, lenses and lighting and audio set-up. Perhaps you could post a thread about it in the Digital Photography section?
No offence intended, an honest question, it seems some people here do work for WF. I only ask as while I take your point, I can’t see why anyone here would be defending the idea of breaking up full sets, surely as watch lovers we would all rather the original set stayed together given the choice? This is obviously more crucial once you get into vintage, but any watch will be vintage one day. I‘m not fanatical about boxes and papers but sourcing spare links can be an expensive PITA and the lack of them makes a watch harder to sell.
I’m also slightly disturbed by the thought of WF being a member here and having the potential to hoover up any good deals on SC, to reappear on WF for a premium.
Last edited by Itsguy; 22nd January 2018 at 11:43.
No offence taken and I hope given.
Having dealers in the forum is useful because they read what is written and can then decide on how to trade in the future based on feedback.
When I buy a Secondhand Rolex, I always look up the amount of links originally supplied (a two minute google job) and ask if that is what is being supplied and I do it in writing.
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No - it's called using your head and not being wet nursed.
That sounds like a good idea, though in general I’d prefer to deal with a company who have a policy to always supply all the available spare links, and to keep sets together as much as possible. Any other policy will lead to the bracelets gradually getting shorter on most of the watches over time, and vintage watches with replaced links that don’t quite match.
The internet has given the customer more power than you might imagine. No one likes bad publicity. Just ask American Airlines. A long and dedicated thread about this topic that comes up in searches would be more useful than discussing it here where we’re way off topic though.
In all fairness to WF, how many dealers will sell you a watch with a full compliment of links, assuming the buyer even knows how many there should be.
A decent seller will size the bracelet for you and you leave the store a happy bunny. Doesn't mean you are getting the number that left the factory when new and plenty of the dealers who do this are well respected.
With second hand watches links are taken away and new ones are added each time a watch changes hands.
A decent seller will return the customer's property after sizing so the watch retains its paid-for complement of links, as one would reasonably expect.
It's amazing that anyone would even try to defend such an unequivocal rip-off.
Last edited by Belligero; 22nd January 2018 at 14:09.
Not defending and we talking about completely different things. Of course if you into Goldsmiths and buy a brand new watch and they remove a few links whilst resizing you would expect those to be handed over.
I was talking second hand. Say you look at a 10 year old Sub, a good dealer will ensure the bracelet fits before you leave the store, but I don't believe there is a dealer in the country that would tell you that when they bought it, it only had 10 links and that they have increased the number to 13 (or whatever) because that's how many there would have been when the Watch was new.
That’s not what is being discussed, the relevant example would be the dealer saying that unfortunately the watch only has 10 links, because they’ve removed the other three and hidden them in a draw to sell later. Of course this happens, it’s a standard way of taking advantage of ill informed customers, aka the age old ‘Allow us to size the bracelet for you, sir’ scam. Just don’t expect this behaviour to win any popularity contests on a watch forum.
After reading this, I will only be comfortable buying from AD...
An excellent thread HM, though it took a while to read!
It seems that fakes are now getting good enough to fool all but the most experienced, and that could badly affect Rolex’s business; both new and used. A database with detailed history, protected by an owner’s PIN sounds like a great idea. I can foresee a time where watches without detailed histories just won’t be trusted.
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Yes—at the risk of sounding of sounding sales-y, our manufacturer certified service centre inspects every watch before purchase to prevent the acquisition of fakes. There are some awful ones, but every now and then a really good one comes in. The thing to really watch out for, especially on rare, vintage watches, is fake parts. We've seen dials swapped out to fakes that mimic rarer variants.
Thank you very much! I would like to do a video one day with a bit of 'behind-the-scenes', but I'd like to get the channel more established before we indulge on that. In the meantime, if I get some time, I'll see if I can put something together for the Digital Photography section. It's a fairly simply setup though—Ursa Mini with lots of dynamic range, tungsten fresnel through 1.8x1m 2-stop diffusion silk right on top of the setup for key and a smaller silk camera left for an edge light.
Woah. Nuts. Hope you called the police on him for fraud. What a wanker!