Reply With QuoteTotally agreed with the above.Originally Posted by paskinner
For quality of finish and superb attention to detail it is the GS for me.
I love the GS being underrated here in Europe. Which is why it is cool for me.
When Toyota went upmarket with Lexus, they put all their initial effort into breaking the American market. Only then did they turn to Europe, where they have been content to have a small but loyal slice of the market. I suspect Grand Seiko is following the same pattern. Establish good growth in the USA and Asia; only then turn the big guns on Europe..which is the home of upmarket wristwatches. They won't attack the 'homeland' of the mechanical watch until they have a solid base elsewhere. And they will probably be quite content with a small but loyal fanbase.
After all, they are the 'luxury' brand of the world's most successful watch manufacturer. They won't stint on achieving their aims, if only for the sake of pride. But they won't rush either.
Totally agreed with the above.
For quality of finish and superb attention to detail it is the GS for me.
I love the GS being underrated here in Europe. Which is why it is cool for me.
In past discussions with Seiko UK, they’ve said they planned on having no more than 12 ADs for Grand Seiko.
As we know production is limited, stock and display pieces would be too thinly spread if there were more than that.
I’d also presume there’s a natural hesitation from potential ADs on a costs/benefits basis due to a variety of reasons, one of which is possibly the difference in price playing into the hands of those who are most likely to be keen buyers.
Whilst never stated as such, but the generally taken as read when I posed the question, is that the UK/EU (and US) price is not so much a reflection on distributor price, mitigating currency fluctuation, and shipping/import costs, but rather more to do with market positioning.
As I’ve said previously, the West is traditionally price lead, and as a result of marketing efforts, we associate price with quality. In the event an AD has a customer walk in with a plan to spend £5K on a Rolex/Omega, for example, there’s little point in showing him a Grand Seiko at £3.5K, since the automatic presumption is that it can’t be as good and cost so much less.
Ergo, in order for a Grand Seiko to be considered equal, it has to be equally priced.
If you can spend the time watching the videos below, from this year’s Baselworld, you’ll hear that Seiko has been absorbing feedback from their ADs (most probably from the active US ones via WUS member’s comments and their customers), with a view to broadening their appeal to the West, but retaining that certain Japanese/Far East quality that is their hallmark.
After all, why would they produce their first tourbillon?
This is a good point indeed.
On the other hand, there is such a thing as charging too much. I am a potential (and actual) GS buyer but there is no possibility I would pay UK AD prices.
I can appreciate the reasoning but I think it can be taken too far. From the outside looking in, it's almost as if the decision on UK AD pricing was made by someone in Japan who has never been to the UK, instead of by a British person in Seiko UK.
Very interesting. It's always good to see a company responding to feedback.
But I have to say that I thought that tourbillon was explicitly targeted at the far east market, with no thought of the west at all!
It also occurs to me that Seiko already knows how to target the west: The range of mostly rather boring (to WIS me) but apparently successfully selling Seiko watches in British high street shops proves this (at least as far as the UK is concerned). ;-)
For better or worse, they would have had a much bigger slice if they'd brought out new diesels. In 2006 Lexus sold 40,000 cars across all of Europe; by 2010, it was less than half that. They're almost back to where they were, entirely on the back of hybrids.
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
Chances are though, that you’d negotiate a descent discount, rather than pay full retail.
Seiko doesn’t operate like Rolex or Patek.
I suspect the typical profit margin in Japan is lower, and that it’s the higher overheads and margins in the West that are to blame for the disparity in prices, over and above just VAT level and currency shifts.
No. They are only selling it through their boutiques in NY, Moscow, Frankfurt, Paris, and the one in Australia – and obviously Tokyo.
There are Credor collectors the world over, and is quietly being exported (production numbers are vastly lower than Grand Seiko) through them, and Timeless Luxury in Texas.
From what I think I know, not all models are available – pretty much just the halo ones, which are barely made in double figures annually.
Most of what Seiko is known for, on the High St, sells on price (and as a result, very good value for the money) – it’ll be interesting to see with the expansion of the Presage range (hopefully picked up by a hefty number of current Seiko resellers) whether the typical buyer starts to gravitate towards a price point normally associated only with the cheaper Swiss/German brands.
By Lexus’ own admission, the diesel IS200 was a disaster for the brand, and only a few years ago, Toyota and BMW agreed on a technology share – hybrid to BMW, diesel to Toyota. I can’t help but think BMW have got the better deal.
Also, it should be worth noting that Porsche’s hybrid model and program began with them buying 2 generations old hybrid tech from Toyota – so probably what was current in 2006 when the GS450h was launched.
I’m presuming the same generation technology was also used for the cheaper and smaller Ct200h when it launched 4-5 years later.
I have to agree with that, the whole point of a GS Quartz (the basic model) is that it's a great watch for not much over a grand. But at £2k you start getting pulled in by other watches that are not much more - a nice vintage DJ for instance, or you're even most of the way to an Explorer II. The same is true of the lovely basic (not high beat) auto, which is very tempting at a bit over £2k in Japan. But at western AD prices, you'll be distracted by the Aqua Terra or be on the way to an Oyster Oerpetual 39. You could argue about the relative merits of the GS, but in the end surely the proposition is that it's a great watch at a great price. They may wish to reeducate us to see them as simply a great watch regardless of the price, but inevitably it's an uphill struggle for the general public. Fortunately of course, we don't have to pay AD prices, and even with VAT the GS Quartz is a lovely watch.
Well, for me I would not be distracted by a DJ or Omega. I'd still buy a GS but just not from a UK AD. ;-)
That was an easy one. I'd easily go for the SBGE. 200m, spring drive, GMT. The Tudor BB is very dull IRL (imho). The SBGE is far from dull and not as shiny IRL as on photos. It also wears great, not as big as the specs suggest.
Get the GS but wait for the inevitable 50% clearance sale when they discontinue the model, which is always soon...
The one time someone asked, I said "Seiko".
Well exactly, but they need to think about their UK pricing if they open shops, unless they are going to back them up with a major ad campaign to gradually shift the brand perception - which they could. Arguably a GS Quartz is a better watch in many departments than say an AT quartz, but you'd have a hard time convincing Joe Public of that with the amount Omega spend on brand awareness, and the few that know would buy overseas anyway.
The GS vs Tudor conundrum is an interesting one, I quite fancy (another) GS Quartz, but the BB36 is very tempting.
Is it? ill start saving
Yes, I'd like a BB Red ETA, but if it was between the SBGE015 vs. a BB then I know I'd choose the SBGE015 first.
Never seen a GS at 50% off, well perhaps once at Jura watches. The SBGE001 is a signature model and a master shop model not likely to be discontinued soon.
That actually looks huge.That was an easy one. I'd easily go for the SBGE. 200m, spring drive, GMT. The Tudor BB is very dull IRL (imho). The SBGE is far from dull and not as shiny IRL as on photos. It also wears great, not as big as the specs suggest.
Cheers,
Neil.
My thoughts too - looks like a dinner plate on his wrist.
I suspect it might be the angle, but I agree, it doesn't make the point the poster was hoping!My thoughts too - looks like a dinner plate on his wrist.
M.
Seiko make something like fourteen million watches a year. Only a tiny, tiny, percentage will be GS models. Quite a few never reach Europe. As for the idea that these watches are quite cheap in Japan...not so. You can't buy any GS from Japan for a thousand pounds, with taxes, or anything near it. I've tried.
To give an idea of real world prices: A basic quartz GS diver watch (sbgx117) will, with discount, cost you around £2,750 by the time it arrives from Japan. That's not a guess, it's whatI I am paying from a discount store (Higuchi).
That's life. As for waiting for Jura to have a sale...fine but they don't even import the best models.
Last edited by paskinner; 6th April 2016 at 09:22.
Jura are only an AD, just like Higuchi is – Seiko UK is the importer/distributor, and Japan effectively tells them what they can choose from.
The 'quite cheap' prices I was referring to are for the the basic quartz, eg SBGX061. Depending on currency fluctuations you sometimes see them for around £1200, obviously before VAT and shipping. Currently the cheapest on C24 is around £1300 but it might go back down should sterling rise after the referendum, and the yen fall - I'm no currency trading expert but that sounds like a fair bet at some point this year. Of course the divers, along with the more unusual and JDM versions, will set you back considerably more, but the 'standard' model is also one of the most appealing. Likewise, the very charming mechanical SBGR051 is currently available for around £2300 before shipping and VAT and has been less than that quite recently, and most likely will be again. That strikes me as rather good value for what it is - they are lovely on the wrist and you'd have a hard time finding a direct competitor at the price, hence the suggestion that part of the appeal of GS should be the price. Whereas at western AD prices they have a lot of competitors who win hands down on brand recognition, leaving aside the discussion of quality.
From experience though (I had and later sold a JDM SBGX085) the fancier GS Quartz can be an expensive hobby, while a used GS Quartz can be an excellent buy.
Do UK GS ADs discount? I was under the impression that Jura were unwilling to discount GS except at sale time (but I've not asked). I'd certainly not bother asking since, even if they were willing to discount, I doubt it would be enough to be worthwhile): I'd always buy either second hand or from US or Japanese ADs.
Interesting. Whilst it doesn't surprise me that they are available in western boutiques for those who want them, I am still surprised that this model is not primarily focussed on the far east. This is because of the dial design: It screams "far eastern market" to me.
I actually thought that Presage was already officially available in the west so it came as a surprise to me to find that it was not. I reckon that Presage will sell reasonably well in the UK, as long as ADs make some effort to stock and promote it.
I get the impression that there are two views of mass market Seikos in the UK: One can be summarised as "cheap, battery powered watches, nothing special but ok" and the other is "quite good quality (i.e. better than Casio in most people's minds), a nice watch that I might buy for a special present". It seems to me that Presage can be successful if ADs try to extend the latter image upwards.
There we go... I am available to Seiko UK for marketing consultancy. ;-)
It looks fantastic. A pity GS don't do a mechanical version of the Sbgx089. It would be a lovely alternative to an Explorer or 39mm Perpetual if you don't want a date window.That's nice and understated much better than the GS you looked at originally IMO.
The red lettering and style is reminiscent of the old black dialled Rolex Milgauss 1019 in my mind.
A good thing.
Last edited by Edward77; 7th April 2016 at 17:25.
They did the SBGR077 and 079 – but still had the date display.
Not sure why dateless would be more preferable, but if the magnetic resistance element can be dispensed with, there’s always the 500-piece Ltd Ed 42mm SBGR097, with the blue and repeating GS pattern dial.
http://www.ahametals.com/grand-seiko...ant-watches/2/
In my opinion
buying a tudor means you can't afford a rolex (I would always go for a rolex over the two because of the better movement)
In my opinion
buying a tudor means you can't afford a rolex (I would always go for a rolex over the two because of the better movement)
I think that's a bit harsh. It's possible to like both and own both.
:D Perhaps not, what about this picture?
its kind of cone shaped so it wear better that expected.
Extremely harsh - if someone wants a vintage snowflake sub or a jumbo prince in 38mm, or a few other unique Tudor models, there's no Rolex alternative, the design stands on its own merits. Likewise the new BB36 looks tempting, and while affordability is a factor, it's the design that makes it interesting.
This makes me feel as if the point of buying a rolex is because you can afford it.
Does a Tudor look like a Rolex? No. When you look at a watch, do you see it as an individal aesthetic expression, or as a indicator of value? If someone actively likes a Pegalos, if they've the money, ought they to buy a Rolex Sub instead? I pity the eyes that look at a Tudor and see nothing but a lower price tag.
It's total bollocks frankly. Rolex don't make a single model I would want to own; Tudor make several.
Extremely harsh - if someone wants a vintage snowflake sub or a jumbo prince in 38mm, or a few other unique Tudor models, there's no Rolex alternative, the design stands on its own merits. Likewise the new BB36 looks tempting, and while affordability is a factor, it's the design that makes it interesting.
Moreover the question was Tudor vs GS , so not sure why it is necessary to bring Rolex into the discussion.
With a name like that, though, to be expected :)
There's a reason Tudor exited the UK market a decade ago. I am sometimes surprised they came back... never seen a Tudor on the wrist of anyone in Britain!
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
North Flag on my wrist today. Just take an Englishman's word for it.
Disagree, I prefer titanium watches and Rolex don't make one. My Tudor Pelagos has an excellent titanium case and a better bracelet design than current Rolex models, also less of a mugger magnet when working overseas.
Steve
Hmmm, really?
Black Bay Black every time, everyone rants on about Tudor being a poor man's Rolex you need to see the current range there are some great watches. I now have two new Tudors Black Bay Black and a Pelagos I wear them more than my Rolex's.
I own up that I am slightly biased as my favorite watch I can't take of my wrist is my Tudor Monte Carlo 7159/0
Last edited by legin; 9th April 2016 at 20:48.
I like both watches but if I had to pick it would be the Tudor.
I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion but often opinions expressed say more about the person expressing them rather than the subject of the opinion.
Hmm not really - both your photos seem to have done the opposite to what you intended:D Perhaps not, what about this picture?
its kind of cone shaped so it wear better that expected.
Haha, I know. But that was all the photos I took when I tried it on. Just trust me when I say it wears great despite how it looks in my two photos.Hmm not really - both your photos seem to have done the opposite to what you intended
I have thought about that watch model for a long time but have never pulled the trigger because of the size, that changed when I tried it on. I still might not buy one but now I know the size is OK on the wrist. :)
The GS for me , I would love to own one of these :) , I think the bezel has a lovely visual quality and vintage style to it.
GS anyday
This is quite true. I bought my two Tudors because I couldn't afford the Rolex that I also own... oh.
Excellent :)
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
That's also the reason I purchased my Tudor, because I couldn't afford the Rolex I already own. Oh hang on...wait a minute.
Last edited by Operation Grandslam; 11th April 2016 at 23:51.
If you want a Rolex, buy one.
If you want a GS, buy one.
If you want a Tudor, think again.
It appears many have, and they aren't paying any attention! :)
...but what do I know; I don't even like watches!
I've owned 3 Tudors and have to say I like Tudor, and not because it's almost a Rolex because it's not. I currents own a 116610LN and even though I like the design better on the sub, the Pelagos has a more qualitative feeling... The bezel is the crispest bezel I have ever turned :)
I have no experience with GS but I am also thinking about purchasing one. I like the very subtle design and that it is a "sleeper".
I think either or will be a great choise!
Some pics of my last Pelagos:
I had a 1968 Tudor Sub for a while, I was bored of negative comments about the Rolexes I'd previously had. I didn't receive a single negative comment. In the end I thought sod it, I don't care and bought myself an Explorer2. If someone doesn't like it, stuff them, but I wish I'd kept the Tudor, it was a great watch and did what a Rolex of the same era would have done. I'd love a Hi-Beat Grand Seiko, preferably a GMT, but that might have to wait. To a certain extent it flies under the radar too, not many people would think of a Seiko as worth more than a couple of hundred quid.
"A man of little significance"
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