it sucks to be a watchmaker

[tokdok]

I am unsure if this is the right board to put this message but if not, Mods please move/delete as appropriate.

Please read this message which was taken & re printed here from "horology matters"
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/horology-matters/
by Nick Hakko & with his permission in response to the ongoing saga/debate regards obtaining parts for the "elite" brands of watches.

Subject: [Horology Matters] It sucks to be a watchmaker

Part 1.

I love my Holden Barina.
Got it new in 1997. Actually we had bought it just few days after my wife
brought home our baby boy from hospital. On weekends, I would fit in a baby seat and we would drive along the coast. Monday to Friday, The Barina was used for business - if you lowered the front passenger seat and fold over back seat, you can fit in full-length English long case clock!
Most customers would just shake their heads in disbelief.
Yes, you can say I am sentimentally attached to my little Holden.
Almost 15 years later, it still goes like a rocket.
Oh yes, it is soon due for new brake pads. The search for new pads
started with a visit to the Holden website. From there I got the phone number of an authorized Holden parts supplier.
"Hi - do you still suply brake pads for a 1997 Barina manufactured in Spain? "
"Sure do. In stock. $28".
"$28 a piece?"
"No, $28 for set of four."
"Fantastic. But just to make it clear, I am not in a car business...
"Sorry?" asked the salesman-
"I said, I am not a car mechanic. Would you still sell the parts to me?
"We sell parts to anyone!"
"And I guess you want my old pads returned to you, right?"
"No mate, just chuck 'em in the rubbish bin (laughing)"
"...and do you need my car rego plates, or my drivers license?"
"No, just your VISA numbers. That's all"
"Great. But for your information, I intend to take my car to my next door neighbor, he is going to install the pads..."
"That's fine, good for you. Now, can I get your card details so we can get this sale under way?"
I also wanted to tell him that my next door neighbor is not a car mechanic either but he was not really up for a chat. Anyway, I got my pads next day in mail.
While on Holden's website I also learned that Holden is in partnership with
a third-party spare parts suppliers which offers a range of parts to suit
their vintage models ("Restoration Parts are often made from the original tooling and are as close to the originals as possible")
I happily left Holden's website under the impression that Holden is a
business that cares for their customers.
If you are a young couple expecting baby and looking for a car, go Holden.
Like we did. Good car, good memories.

Part 2.
Some of the long time subscribers are well aware that I am very passionate about my hobby.
I LOVE my radios. After a long day behind the watch bench or in front of a computer,
sanity is restored the moment I put the headphones on and flick the switch
of trustworthy ICOM.
This morning, I'd received an email from a fellow radio nutter.
"The latest model of ICOM transceivers is now coming with newly designed transmitter amplifier.
They will be using the most advanced gold metallized N-channel MOS field-effect RF power transistor".
Wow, that was cool news indeed.
But then I got worried - I love to repair my own radios, and while I rarely need to replace
output transistors, the question was, would I be able to obtain such a very
special component if I ever needed one?
ICOM is Japanese radio manufacturer and amateur radios are just a part of a large Corporation which also supplies equipment to military, marine and avio users including US Marine corp!
Surely they would be very protective of their latest technology?
I was wrong once again.
A click to ICOMs web page revealed that I have nothing to worry about: The Japanese were
more than happy to tell everyone that the latest power amplifying device actually comes from
STMicroelectronics, an Italian-French company, and that the component number is STAC2942.
Another quick search revealed that while this component was only manufactured a couple of years ago, it is readily available from wholesalers everywhere - for just $120.
Or for $90 on eBay!
If I ever needed replacement -or a truck load of them - I would have no problem fixing my latest model Japanese radio.
Yes I love my radios, and I will remain loyal to my favorite Japanese brand
because my brand respects me and my hobby.
Part 3.
This Monday I need to deliver two sets of news. Both bad. Right in front of me, on my work bench, I have two watches belonging to customers, which have been sitting there for some time now.
One is a lady's gold and steel watch, the other is a gent's divers timepiece.
The first one belongs to a lovely lady who has been my good customer for many years.
Her watch needs a new circuit. A fifteen minute job which requires the
removal of 4 screws and a fitting of a new battery. The second watch belongs to a guy whom I have never met, but was described as a massive gym junkie. Another easy job- his watch needs a new winding crown and a rubber seal.
So here I am, staring at two "dead" watches, trying to solve an unsolvable
problem:
how to repair them without spare parts? Yes, you guessed right - both
watches are Swiss made and no, I have no access to those parts.
Both watches are over 20 years old. Both customers left them with me in good faith, expecting a hassle free, straight forward repair. Yet the only thing I can deliver on Monday is "sorry I can not help you".
I really hate those phone calls:
"Aren't you a watchmaker? So you don't know how to fix them?
You don't have parts? Why? So now I have to waste my time once again coming
to your shop to pick up my watch? Where do I take them now? How much is THAT going to cost me? Why does it takes 3 month to do a 15 minutes job? Why can't you do it?
Why can't YOU get parts?...."
Quite frankly I am sick of explaining how little I can do without access to Swiss 'brand name' spare parts.
It is painful and humiliating. It is frustrating. I am loosing time, money and reputation. I am loosing my best customers, it is simple as that: once you say NO to a customer, that customer will never come back to you. There will be no referral, no 'job well done' feedback, no income.
As my 14 year old boy said: "it sucks to be you, dad! "
Yes, it sucks to be a watchmaker.
It sucks to be an Australian watchmaker who pays tax to the Australian Government yet is unable to fix a watch for an Australian customer because someone out there, in Switzerland, has taken full control over our lives.
And what sucks the most is that I cannot even name the brands which are depriving Australian
watchmakers of basic right to earn income - without being sued in AUSTRALIAN Court!
Part 4.
Apparently, the key reason why Swiss refuse to sell watch parts to independent Australian watchmakers (and US, British, Norwegian, Italian, French and every one else) is this:
We, the independents, are not capable of handling Swiss watches.
We are somehow inferior, uneducated and inexperienced. We are also unwilling to invest in modern tools and equipment.
Or something along those lines.
15, 35 or 40 years of repairing Swiss watches is still not good enough.
The fact that we can actually repair far more complex watches than the majority of what they sell is irrelevant.
The fact that most of us are European trained, second, third or fourth generation watchmakers is also irrelevant.
My grandfather is now 92 years old and he still repairs clocks and watches.
He was a master Watchmaker before WW2. One vivid memory from my earliest childhood
is pile of watch crowns, metal bracelets, plexi glasses and other spare parts which he used to bring in suitcases from Switzerland from his parts buying trips.
Back in the 60s, 70s and even 80s getting a spare part for Swiss watches was
as simple as getting brake pads for a Holden. The Swiss brands needed us, and they needed us desperately to service their millions of watches.
The independent watchmakers were in business a long time before the Swiss even got into watches!
The reason why Australian independent watchmakers are cut out, pushed away and left to "starve to death:" is this: Swiss corporate greed.
We all know that. So please, Swiss brands, let us preserve some dignity. Don't call us incompetent. Stop telling your customers that "taking your watch to an independent
watchmaker is risky because they can't fix it".
The only reason why we are unable to repair your watches is because you
REFUSE to supply parts. It's as simple as that. Not the other way around.
Quite frankly, a battery or circuit replacement in a Swiss watch is something we don't even consider watchmaking.
Even an overhaul on your "super duper" automatic movement is something we can do blindfolded.
It's kids stuff.
When a customer brings a watch to you with a broken balance staff, you replace the balance wheel completely, We replace the balance staff only. When the watch is rendered by you as
'beyond repair, no parts available'
we get our 60 or 100 years old lathe and we turn the staff. We make one from a steel rod,
by hand, the old fashioned way. When you run into a problem you can not
solve (on your own watch!) you replace the entire mechanism. Instead, we look for the problem - yes this is time consuming,
but extremely satisfying - and we solve it. We get a kick out of repairing stuff you can not or don't know how to repair!
And this is just a beginning. Some of our members, the independent watchmakers of Australia
are capable of much more. They can restore even the most complex Swiss
timepieces ever manufactured. They can manufacture parts which are completely missing, cut wheels and pinions.
They are capable of restoring some of the most magnificent timepieces ever manufactured:
English and French clocks, American railroad pocket watches, ships
chronometers.
Do your watchmakers know how to hand make a detent for a chronometer escapement?
Have YOU ever tried to make one? How many of your "in house trained repairers",
whose job it is to swap a quartz movement, have even seen a fusee chain?
How many of them can explain what the difference between the tick and tock sound is,
what a poise error is or even the relationship between amplitude and timekeeping?
Or let me be just a touch more personal: how many of your Authorized dealers whom you also call 'authorized service centers' for your brand when in reality they are just administrative operators have even a simplest timing machine on their premises? How many of those
who you have allowed and authorize to sell $50,000 or $500,000 watches would have even a slightest clue about what makes those watches tick?
Once again, you are trying to pull out that old trick of Swiss corporate mastery.
You know so well that refusal to sell spare parts to independent repairers is in breach of
European competition rules and a US anti-trust law. Australian consumer law is no different.
But looks like that you simply don't care.
Either way, our message is simple: don't ever call us, -the Australian
watchmakers- incompetent or incapable, Because you may find out that one day when we are all gone, the table will turn around and the watch owners, YOUR customers, will say: it sucks to be you.

Nick Hacko

Sydney May 13, 2012.
please excuse any spelling or grammatical errors, English is not my first language.

[watch-nut]

It's an interesting read with some valuable points. It seems the issue is only getting worse as well. The desire to keep servicing 'in house' has spawned a market for fake parts and the costs that Omega, Rolex and such like are charging to service a watch is beggers belief.

There is no other reason for the refusal to supply independent watchmakers the parts other than they want the service work themselves, the cost to the industry as the letter states is that the independent watchmaker goes the way of the dodo and with them a set of skills and knowledge that i would imagine is irreplacable.

:(

[seikopath]

" welcome to the layer cake son 8) "

[dixie]

A great read, thank you.

Maybe I'll stick to the independents in the first place from now on.

[JJG-DK]

That was "fun" to read.... - can fully understand your frustration!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[europa]

That was a great read, it must be so frustrating for these indie's when a simple job can't be done.

[Josh B]

It occurs to me that a number of the Swiss houses invest substantially in training new watchmakers. This might explain their behaviour in part: a desire to have something for their guys to build experience on and an income stream to support it.

I have no idea if this hypothesis is sustainable as have not looked at the numbers though. Anyone know?

[JeremyO]

What frustrates me so much is not just the cost of Manufacturers service but the inordinate amount of time taken. You send in the watch and have to wait up to 3 months before you get it back.

Good job my local VW dealer does not operate in the same way!

[walkerwek1958]

That was a great read, it must be so frustrating for these indie's when a simple job can't be done.

I`ve only been involved in service and repairs for around 12 months, and I`ve experienced problems. At present, Omega parts are available for the older stuff but I`m not sure about the latest cal 8500 models. The price of vintage Omega parts has gone through the roof for some reason, almost as if Omega don`t want their older models to survive.

The Swiss attitude absolutely sucks. I know it's unfair to generalise but I worked for a Swiss company in my final years in the Chemical Industry and I was surprised how arrogant they can be.

The car companies tried spomething similar a few years back, attempting to limit the supply of parts to their own dealerships. This got shot down in flames in the courts and they had to retreat from this position. Sadly the watch firms have got away with it.

Provided they could supply parts to the correct specification I would welcome a move by the Chinese to produce replica parts, especially for the vintage stuff. It happens with classic cars and it's the only viable way to keep them running, so why not with watches?

Just to clarify, I ALWAYS fit genuine parts to a customers watch if they are available. If not, the customer will ALWAYS be notified. I don`t intend to change this stance, but I would welcome a more cost-effective option.

I`d hate to be in a position of relying on watch work as a primary source of income for this very reason; if the big manufacturers go down the same path as Rolex and stop supplying parts, the business model collapses.

Yes, the whole parts situation sucks big-style.

Rant over

Paul

[MST]

Reading that article has definitely served as food for thought and I think people [me included] should do everything they can to support their local watchmaker, albeit sometimes not so local! However, I've been seduced by the dark side and was on the cusp of sending my other halve's Longines off to SG Services for a much needed full service, but on the basis of this thread I've reconsidered and am currently searching for a suitable independent, feel free to pitch in with suggestions.

That said, yesterday I sent my late Father-in-Law's Aquastar 60 off to Richard Askham AKA Richie_101 (of The Watch Spot blog fame) for a full service and some TLC will hopefully restore it to some of its former glory, sympathetically of course :)

[dutchgray]

I have always used an independent the few times I have had to have work done on a watch, but then I don't own any modern Swiss watches that you would expect to have been serviced by the manufacturer, I have one vintage Omega that was restored at Bienne before I owned it but I have the receipt for that an I personally would never pay that much, although the case work is stunning. The parts supply problem is worrying though.

[Henrik Gelardi]

My sincere sympathy for the Indy watchmakers out there that experience this. My two local independents do a wonderful job, are always friendly, appreciate my business, and help where they can.

Over the weekend, I visited with two authorized IWC and high end brand dealers, and both places I felt unwelcome, and they could now really help. And despite what was on my wrist, they were clearly better people than me. Or so they tried to make me feel.

At my former visit to a Rolex dealership trying on the SubC, the sweet lady insisted that it had grown significantly in size from the 16610 and that the dial was at least 40cm... Luckily I don't need that kind of help when looking at watches, as I usually do my homework or get help for the complicated stuff on the forum, but if you're selling merchandise at those prices, why not show your costumers that you appreciate your business, and try to understand what you're selling...

[Mark020]

Great read about a serious problem. Recently it took me 2 months to get a Caliber 11 part which my watchmaker couldn't obtain. In car terms: a camshaft for a 911 2.4! This means that in 5 years time these parts will really be unobtainium and lots of watches can't be fixed anymore.

[even neve]

To the point and so true.

This little town I called my own once had 2 watchmakers, of course things have changed in many different ways, but last watchmaker standing here spend the last years of his almost 70 years at the bench (well including 3 years on the floor looking for parts as he said) in the same frustration.

Greed is the word

[learningtofly]

It occurs to me that a number of the Swiss houses invest substantially in training new watchmakers. This might explain their behaviour in part: a desire to have something for their guys to build experience on and an income stream to support it.

I have no idea if this hypothesis is sustainable as have not looked at the numbers though. Anyone know?

If you read the article, Josh, the point seems to be that the opposite is true. That is, the Swiss (or, at least, the larger watch groups) no longer have the skills to compare to the traditional watchmaking industry.

Very sad, if you ask me.

[Harry Tuttle]

Like others, I'd like post a reply in support of the OP.

This is happening all over, I have drawers full of archaic electronic equipment and bespoke leads that can't be used any more because its no longer supported. I have film scanners I can only use with difficulty because they use connection types, operating systems and software that are not supported, forcing me to buy more stuff which will join the drawers of stuff in due course.

My car battery went flat. When I recharged it, the car radio and the door locks no longer work properly. The lifespan of cameras has become ever shorter, and each time I get a new one I have to get a new version of the software supporting it as the camera manufacturers insist on owning the white balance code. There is no culture of repair anymore. I've read that even Leica have moved towards replacement rather than repair.

So when it comes to supporting watches (which the Swiss and everyone else were flattening during the quartz crisis) all of a sudden like the car manufacturers the manufacturers have woken up to the fact that they can earn more through maintenance than just flogging the watch. They can also make on watches they sold decades ago. We all know that the local watchmaker (who's normally an enthusiast) tends to know watches inside out, certainly not the case for jewellery chains who employ transient staff who probably care more about their salary than the products they sell.

Its all a bit rubbish really.

[miguel alvarez]

I find the same thing with music equipment in the studio. Something goes wrong and it requires a full re think as its very rarely a one off fix or replace. I agree with the comment above about people not appreciating the culture of fixing things.

[eagletower]

I always prefer using independents, when it comes to watches/ cars etc.

I find you always get better service from an independent and people hide behind the faceless anonymity of a big corporation.

I have been trying to book my car in to my local authorised dealer (strictly because it has been involved in a small collision and the other party is paying and has for it to be taken there) and even after days no one has called me back to book it in and I keep getting passed from the dealer to bodyshop etc.

[Josh B]

It occurs to me that a number of the Swiss houses invest substantially in training new watchmakers. This might explain their behaviour in part: a desire to have something for their guys to build experience on and an income stream to support it.

I have no idea if this hypothesis is sustainable as have not looked at the numbers though. Anyone know?

If you read the article, Josh, the point seems to be that the opposite is true. That is, the Swiss (or, at least, the larger watch groups) no longer have the skills to compare to the traditional watchmaking industry.

Very sad, if you ask me.

I did read the article which seems to be taking a pop at the AD types.

The Swiss luxury watch market has exploded in size over the last 20 years or so. Somebody is making all these watches....

Im not defending the practice, just thinking about an alternative perspective.

[Harry Tuttle]

[/quote]

I did read the article which seems to be taking a pop at the AD types.

The Swiss luxury watch market has exploded in size over the last 20 years or so. Somebody is making all these watches....

Im not defending the practice, just thinking about an alternative perspective.[/quote]

In the case of ETA, Seiko and Miyota (and I'm pretty sure a lot of more upmarket brands) I'm going to guess that the movements are machine built.

From another thread on TZ discussing chronograph modules, it would appear that these have been manufactured for minimum maintenance and utilise a replace not repair philosophy. It may well be that you're local, friendly watch repairer is the first human to touch them in the event that something goes wrong. There's at least one poster on the thread who has had a very negative experience of this approach to watch construction.

It may be this that the commercial organisations are trying to stop. They'd much rather you bought new. But if you insist on clinging on to your outmoded old and hopelessly unfashionable watch they'll make sure that they make some revenue out of you one way or another by forcing you to buy their over inflated parts and soulless and slow aftercare.

It's strange but this discussion is reminding me more and more of that seminal film "Robots" which I watched with my 7 year old. It may well be that this film represents a deeper critique of our shallow, novelty obsessed, consumer driven society than I had previously given it credit for.

[barneygumble]

If it's illegal to deny independents access to spare parts, why don't they take a case against them in any jurisdiction?

[Emeister]

If it's illegal to deny independents access to spare parts, why don't they take a case against them in any jurisdiction?

Nick Hacko (who wrote the story quoted by the OP) and other Australian* watchmakers are taking up a case - or at least trying to get the ACCC (Australian Competition & Consumer Commission) to take up the fight.

http://www.save-the-time.org

more articles
http://www.save-the-time.org/articles

Youtube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaJvmQtoVjs

Ian

* from Nick's newsletters I understand that watchmakers in other countries are also banding together.

[abraxas]

.
We shall have to get used to it that watches are no longer ‘appliances’ but items of jewellery (status). From here on, trying to get the big brands to stop controlling the market would be like telling the diamond industry to stop controlling the flow of diamonds. These are artificial markets and as such they have to be controlled.

You can always stop buying the products, never get engaged, and wear a Casio.

The winning argument for the big brands is that for every good independent watchmaker, there are three who butcher their watches (which is true and they can prove it) and why should they provide spares for watches older than, let's say, 15-20 years?

john

[PreacherCain]

The comments above on modern Western society's preference for replacement over repair are absolutely spot-on IMO. There is something extremely satisfying about mending something that was previously broken, and it is clearly more efficient, if less revenue-generating, to do this rather than buy a complete replacement. You don't have to be a Green Party member to appreciate the efficiency aspect, either. ;)

One suspects that a legal challenge somewhere will eventually open the floodgates, but the barrier to doing this is that many independent watchmakers are small concerns or sole traders, and lawyers cost money. In the meantime, if there is sufficent demand, I'd expect to see more Chinese pattern parts in circulation and if the Swiss are intent on cutting the indies out anyway, then threats of withdrawal of "service centre" status (or whatever) will soon cease to hold water. The Swiss are always welcome to try suing the pattern part manufacturers, if they really feel like pouring money down the toilet.

I say all the above assuming that most watch movement repair parts are based on ordinary machined metal, as opposed to being unobtainium which explodes on contact with any hands other than a Swiss gnome's... ;) Less facetiously, I guess that a good enough CAD drawing for a part could allow replacements to be machined pretty much ad infinitum; I wonder if there's a big enough market for it...

[Bernard]

I expect and hope that 3d printing techniques will be the end of the Swiss way of working.
If people can create watchparts by printing them, the fact that producer X won't sell you parts only means you will have to scan and print the needed part.

They downside is that this technique has just started getting affordable and precise enough...

Time will tell, but I hope the Swiss will be bitten in the behind by their protectionism and the way they try to kill the competition.

[Bernard]

If it's illegal to deny independents access to spare parts, why don't they take a case against them in any jurisdiction?

A big problem is: they are in Switzerland (non EU), so a lot of regulation against cartels, blocking the sale of parts etc. doesn't apply to them.