Centre minutes mechanical chronos

[Jeremy67]

What centre minutes mechanical chronos are there apart from those with a Lemania 5100?

[andrew]

What centre minutes mechanical chronos are there apart from those with a Lemania 5100?

Breitling (various) and TAG (Aquagraph). Coincidentally everyone's favourite brands :)

[ben4watches]

Apart from the 5100 I think all the others use a ETA base with a Dubois & Depraz chrono movement attatched to the top. You can usually tell this by looking at the pushers and crown as the crown will sit lower down the the chrono pushers.

[Toshi]

The Omega cal 1040 and cal 1041 use a modified Lemania 1343

[spluurfg]

IWC has a split minute chronograph based on the Valjoux 77XX series.

[abraxas]

.
Breguet Transatlantique Type XXI

john

[xdonolix]

GP Laureato evo3

[Joel M in New Jersey]

I had a Wakmann chrono with Lemania 1341 movement. Also had center minute hand.

Looked like this…

[Timelord]

What centre minutes mechanical chronos are there apart from those with a Lemania 5100?

Breitling (various) and TAG (Aquagraph). Coincidentally everyone's favourite brands :)

I know about the Tag Aquagraph as I have one, but I'm not aware of any Breitlings. Can you elaborate please. :)

[andrew]

What centre minutes mechanical chronos are there apart from those with a Lemania 5100?

Breitling (various) and TAG (Aquagraph). Coincidentally everyone's favourite brands :)

I know about the Tag Aquagraph as I have one, but I'm not aware of any Breitlings. Can you elaborate please. :)

Twin Sixty, Hercules, Skyracer, and Navitimer 125th off the top of my head.

Isn't the IWC a split-seconds chrono, with two central second hands?

[Stanford]

Isn't the IWC a split-seconds chrono, with two central second hands?

It is:

[Timelord]

What centre minutes mechanical chronos are there apart from those with a Lemania 5100?

Breitling (various) and TAG (Aquagraph). Coincidentally everyone's favourite brands :)

I know about the Tag Aquagraph as I have one, but I'm not aware of any Breitlings. Can you elaborate please. :)

Twin Sixty, Hercules, Skyracer, and Navitimer 125th off the top of my head.

Isn't the IWC a split-seconds chrono, with two central second hands?

It looks like all of the Breitlings use the Dubois-Depraz 2073 chronograph module on the ETA 2892 as seen in the Tag Aquagraph and the Sinn 142 II. Apart from the historical Lemania 5100 and 1340 families, the modular movement appears to be the only mechanical centre minute chronograph that is relatively commonly available. Of course, the Lemania 1340/1341 is now called the 1350 as used by Breguet and Ebel. However, this movement is not available to any outside the Swatch group.

[Crusader]

Sinn have their SZ01 (a modified 7750, IIRC) still under development.

[allaboutmusic]

Isn't the IWC a split-seconds chrono, with two central second hands?

It is:

Also known as a doppelchrono, is that correct? Are those generally a completely different movement, or is it a modified standard chronograph (7750 etc)?

[Timelord]

Sinn have their SZ01 (a modified 7750, IIRC) still under development.

Are you sure they haven't decided that they can't be arsed with the SZ01 and taken the easy option by plopping an ETA 2892 with DD 2073 into the Sinn 142 case. :wink:

[Crusader]

Sinn have their SZ01 (a modified 7750, IIRC) still under development.

Are you sure they haven't decided that they can't be arsed with the SZ01 and taken the easy option by plopping an ETA 2892 with DD 2073 into the Sinn 142 case. :wink:

Yes. :)

[andrew]

Here's a q. What about ETA's new C01 movement? The one based on a 5100 but featuring no central minutes and silicon bits instead of jewels on the pallet (hence the 15-jewel count)? I wonder if that could be modified into, well, a 5100...

[Timelord]

Sinn have their SZ01 (a modified 7750, IIRC) still under development.

Are you sure they haven't decided that they can't be arsed with the SZ01 and taken the easy option by plopping an ETA 2892 with DD 2073 into the Sinn 142 case. :wink:

Yes. :)

Thanks for the update Martin. :) I was beginning to lose faith after reading WUS Sinn forum moderator Kurt Koerfgen's comments on the progress of the SZ01:

http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=261858

[abraxas]

Sinn have their SZ01 (a modified 7750, IIRC) still under development.

Are you sure they haven't decided that they can't be arsed with the SZ01 and taken the easy option by plopping an ETA 2892 with DD 2073 into the Sinn 142 case. :wink:

That's what I decided anyway, no matter what anybody else says.

Also as you know, recently they've been offering the oversized 60 minute totaliser in the U1000. I feel the central minute totaliser carries far more mystique than it deserves.

john

[Timelord]

Sinn have their SZ01 (a modified 7750, IIRC) still under development.

Are you sure they haven't decided that they can't be arsed with the SZ01 and taken the easy option by plopping an ETA 2892 with DD 2073 into the Sinn 142 case. :wink:

That's what I decided anyway, no matter what anybody else says.

Also as you know, recently they've been offering the oversized 60 minute totaliser in the U1000. I feel the central minute totaliser carries far more mystique than it deserves.

john

I'd actually forgotten that the U1000 has a 60 minute counter. It makes much more sense than the usual Valjoux 7750 30 minute counter with the inherent guesswork with regard to the number of elapsed minutes. :)

I think that the central minute totaliser deserves all of the mystique it gets, simply because of the ease of reading it. The Lemania 5100 movement is by no means perfect, of course. For example, there is the central minute totaliser not always returning to zero, the power reserve issue seen with some Sinn EZM-1 and the remarks by unimpressed watch repairers that certain parts are too small and that the movement appears fragile (I'm not sure if the 1340/1341 behaves similarly). These comments are in stark contrast to those of the late Chuck Maddox. However, I still prefer the Lemania movements to those by Valjoux.

[Crusader]

I think that the central minute totaliser deserves all of the mystique it gets, simply because of the ease of reading it.

Yes and no. For short durations of, say, less than 15 minutes, I actually find the subdial easier to read. It also depends on the size of the hour markers ... on the PRS-17C, e.g., the minute chono counter is sometimes not as visible as one would like it to be against the background of the markers.

[abraxas]

I think that the central minute totaliser deserves all of the mystique it gets, simply because of the ease of reading it.

Yes and no. For short durations of, say, less than 15 minutes, I actually find the subdial easier to read. It also depends on the size of the hour markers ... on the PRS-17C, e.g., the minute chono counter is sometimes not as visible as one would like it to be against the background of the markers.

With central minute totalisers you always have to "go-looking" for the hand whereas with its own subdial that is never an issue ... plus, you get better 'separation' when a hand has to do a double 360 than a single 360.

john

[Crusader]

I think the Breguet system of having a large 15-minute subdial is an interesting alternative to the center-minute chronograph.

[sweets]

For me, no contest (I would say that, having owned over 20 Lemanias, an Aquagraph and no V7750s at all).

The largest dial on the watch is the main one, not one of the sub-dials.

The longest hands are the centre-pinioned ones.

Big-dial + big hands = accurate reading

Every manufacturer knows this, it is why the chrono-seconds are centre pinioned, and not put on a sub-dial.

Doing the same with the minutes only improves the legibility, as no mistakes are made on the reduced size sub-dial.

30-minute sub-dials are annoying because you have to look at another hand (the hour one) to figure out whether it is 20 minutes or 50 minutes past an hour.

60-minute ones are an improvement, but only work when they are large. And on a watch, the centre-pinion hands on the main dial is as large as it gets.

And I don't find myself "looking" for the hand, with colour differentiation on most of them it is perfectly clear.

It mystifies me why is has not been "re-invented"

D

[Timelord]

What centre minutes mechanical chronos are there apart from those with a Lemania 5100?

Breitling (various) and TAG (Aquagraph). Coincidentally everyone's favourite brands :)

I know about the Tag Aquagraph as I have one, but I'm not aware of any Breitlings. Can you elaborate please. :)

Twin Sixty, Hercules, Skyracer, and Navitimer 125th off the top of my head.

Isn't the IWC a split-seconds chrono, with two central second hands?

It looks like all of the Breitlings use the Dubois-Depraz 2073 chronograph module on the ETA 2892 as seen in the Tag Aquagraph and the Sinn 142 II. Apart from the historical Lemania 5100 and 1340 families, the modular movement appears to be the only mechanical centre minute chronograph that is relatively commonly available. Of course, the Lemania 1340/1341 is now called the 1350 as used by Breguet and Ebel. However, this movement is not available to any outside the Swatch group.

Contrary to what I implied above, Ebel is not part of the Swatch Group according to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Swatch_Group

Furthermore, Roland Ranfft is of the opinion that the Ebel 137 (Lemania 1350) was available from 2005:

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db. ... k&Ebel_137

This date is after the apparent edict by Nicolas Hayek (Swatch CEO) that no Lemania movements would be made available to companies outside of the Swatch Group. If the Lemania 1350 was available to those outside the Swatch Group such as Ebel, maybe there is hope for Sinn, Tutima, Orfina etc after all? Of course, the issue as to its affordability is another matter entirely.

[sweets]

The odd thing about the Ebel is that their making of the 1350, the 137, doesn't use the centre-minutes.

Breguet do, in hteir Type XXI chronos, but Ebel? No. They opt for a traditional tricompax with 30-minute register at 3, 12-hr register at 6 and constant seconds at 9.

Why they chose this I have no idea, it seems a backward step, but perhaps the clue is in the fact that they are not SWATCH, and Breguet, who do use the feature, are. Perhaps they were allowed to use the movement if they did not employ one of its key features?

who knows

D

[Daddelvirks]

The odd thing about the Ebel is that their making of the 1350, the 137, doesn't use the centre-minutes.

Breguet do, in hteir Type XXI chronos, but Ebel? No. They opt for a traditional tricompax with 30-minute register at 3, 12-hr register at 6 and constant seconds at 9.

Why they chose this I have no idea, it seems a backward step, but perhaps the clue is in the fact that they are not SWATCH, and Breguet, who do use the feature, are. Perhaps they were allowed to use the movement if they did not employ one of its key features?

who knows

D

The Ebel 137 movement is only BASED on the old Lemania design.
They developed this own caliber together with Ulysse Nardin in the mid-nineties, UN uses it with all sorts of complications in totally reworked versions.
Ebel uses it for it's upmarket chrono's, and it's a mighty fine movement, winds butter-smooth and has a very clever sturdy bi-directional winding system.

Cheers,

Daddel.

[sweets]

Sure, I'm aware of that.

What I am saying is that it is interesting for them to take an automatic 12-hr automatic chronograph movement with a beat rate of 28,800, bi-directional winding, quick-set date etc from the early 70s, and
"modify it"
to turn it into a 12-hr automatic chronograph movement with a beat rate of 28,800, bi-directional winding, quick-set date etc,

Whilst removing one of the original's key features, without really adding any, other than the aesthetic appeal of the tri-compax layout.

It is one of the consequences of the snobbery of the "in-house" movement.

Rather than be honest and say that the bulk of the movement is not theirs, a lot of manufacturers (and this is not limited to Ebel) claim "in-house" status (an the consequent horological high-ground), when all they have done is tinker with someone else's movement.

It's the same as Alpina claiming that their car is indepedent, rather than a re-hashed BMW. It's just not very accurate.

I love the fact that this venerable movement is in use in some "haute-horology", when examples of the original movement can be had for a couple of hundred quid.

D

[Daddelvirks]

Hi,

while there is some debate on the validity of the "in house" claim the fact that it took them 5 years to develop it even after starting from the Lem 1340 (actually the Omega 1040 - which was developed from the cal 861) as a base - a number of significant changes had to be made including the registers because of the central minute hand, the thickness was cut by 1.5mm, bi directional winding was added..........

that EBEL also does all the design, assembly, finishing and testing in house is a pretty good argument (the only part they do not do is produce the actually components for the movement - that is now done by La Joux Perret IIRC to the specific plans and designs supplied by Ebel - save for 40 specific parts (out of 322) supplied by Dubois-Dépraz)

so in my book it is an in house movement.

The Breguet calibres are not made by the same manufacturer and there are some significant differences - although Breguet actually used the Ebel calibre as a base when they did the movements for the XX and XXI since they had had access to newly developed calibre when they were both owned by invest Corp.....part of the deal was that Lemania would supply the parts and blanks that Ebel needed....

all that end in 2001 IIRC after Lemania was renamed Manufacture Breguet.

as of 2004 Movado Group and Breguet entered into a new agreement that either could develop new iterations of the 137 based on the original drawings of course.

Cheers,


Daddel.

[sweets]

I am happy that you consider it as such, I merely state my opinion that it is a little less worthy of regard as a total in-house movement, because it simly isn't one, it is a development of an ealier one that (imho) deserves a little more respect than it gets.
I would also argue that the Lemania 134x series was definitely Lemania.
Invented by Invented by Marius Meylan Piguet, realised by Raoul Henri Erard, and manufactured by Lemania.
Omega's own website description of the 1040 even states as much, that it was bought from Lemania.
Omega's exclusivity on the 1343 movement (to make it the 1040/1041) was limited to the complication of the 24-hr disc mechanism within the constant seconds dial, and the finishing they employed.
I would also add that Bi-directional winding was a feature of the original Lemania movement, it (and the ball-bearing mounting of the rotor) was the main feature of the 1970 Patent for the movement by Piguet. So it would be misleading to say that Ebel added it, although they might have altered it in the course of making the other changes.

D

[jd]

FWIW, I find a centre minutes chrono easier to read roughly at a glance, but more difficult to read accurately. I find a 30 minute subdial very easy to read precisely, but the same is not always true of a centre minute chrono - particularly if measuring 2 or 3 minutes on a 5100/1045, where the pointless subdial at 12 gets in the way.

The jumping centre minutes on the ETA quartz movement are easier to read imo.

[Daddelvirks]

THanks for the additional information Sweets :) .
I'm only trying to say, that if the likes such as Hublot try to convince us that their chrono movement is in-house, the Ebel deserves that status a bit more IMHO.

All the best,

Daddel.

[sweets]

THanks for the additional information Sweets :) .
I'm only trying to say, that if the likes such as Hublot try to convince us that their chrono movement is in-house, the Ebel deserves that status a bit more IMHO.

All the best,

Daddel.

Agreed, there is too mcuh smoke and mirrors out there when it comes to in-house movements.
The Ebel is a lot more deserving of the title than many others, some of whom do a bit of re-decorating and give a movement an in-house name. Such behaviour (from anyone, but especially from someone charging as much as Hublot) is mis-leading at best.

However, on the other side of the argument, one might say that many WISs attach too much esteem to in-house movements, when in fact there are perfectly good movements out there to be used?

I guess we all have to make sure that we are happy to put our money where our opinions are...

Cheers
D

[Timelord]

Here's a q. What about ETA's new C01 movement? The one based on a 5100 but featuring no central minutes and silicon bits instead of jewels on the pallet (hence the 15-jewel count)? I wonder if that could be modified into, well, a 5100...

Haha, maybe it could be "modified" back to its roots. :D However, and AFAIK, the ETA C01.211 will be available in Tissot and Swatch watches, but not to those outside the Swatch Group.



The best explanation about the development of the C01.211 from the Lemania 5100 I've seen is the following by Jorge Merino at Timezone. I'm not sure if he has any inside knowledge on the origins of the C01.211 or whether it's just speculation:

[Timelord]

For me, no contest (I would say that, having owned over 20 Lemanias, an Aquagraph and no V7750s at all).

The largest dial on the watch is the main one, not one of the sub-dials.

The longest hands are the centre-pinioned ones.

Big-dial + big hands = accurate reading

Every manufacturer knows this, it is why the chrono-seconds are centre pinioned, and not put on a sub-dial.

Doing the same with the minutes only improves the legibility, as no mistakes are made on the reduced size sub-dial.

30-minute sub-dials are annoying because you have to look at another hand (the hour one) to figure out whether it is 20 minutes or 50 minutes past an hour.

60-minute ones are an improvement, but only work when they are large. And on a watch, the centre-pinion hands on the main dial is as large as it gets.

And I don't find myself "looking" for the hand, with colour differentiation on most of them it is perfectly clear.

It mystifies me why is has not been "re-invented"

D

Agreed. I would only add that I've got many Lemania 5100 (and 1340/1341) powered chronographs, an Aquagraph and a number of chronographs powered by the Valjoux 7750 and its family members. However, it is the Lemania-powered chronographs that I reach for in the watch box, not the others.

After hours of looking, I've just found a great thread from last year (before Chuck Maddox passed away) concerning the hypothetical resuscitation of the Lemania brand:

http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=123154

[NJH]

I agree with a lot of what has been said. I recently bought Dave E's Tutima Nato and this has completely changed my opinion of chronograph watches. Before I found the 30 minute subdial almost unusable, it takes too long even to take a rough reading and has been said you have to look at the hour counter carefully to see if you are in the 2nd half of an hour. It doesn't help of course that I also hate the infamous 7750 wobble. The Tutima's are a study in superb HMI, the only thing I don't like is the pointless 1/2 hour marks on the 12 hour counter, would be easier to read accurately without them. Its true you can find it tricky around the 12 and 3 o'clock where the 24 hr and day date gets in the way. The Tutima Commando is likely perfect in this respect as those 2 problems are removed. They also removed the 1/5 second markers which is a good thing, pointless on a device like this which can never be used to accurately measure the start and stop of a physical event no matter what WIS might like to think.

[abraxas]

.
As long as people understand that the ETA C01.211 is a budget movement, using synthetic materials … then we will be fine.

john

[Timelord]

.
As long as people understand that the ETA C01.211 is a budget movement, using synthetic materials … then we will be fine.

john

Agreed, but it doesn't have the centre minutes totaliser. I wonder if it could be modified to incorporate such a feature?

[abraxas]

.
As long as people understand that the ETA C01.211 is a budget movement, using synthetic materials … then we will be fine.

john

Agreed, but it doesn't have the centre minutes totaliser. I wonder if it could be modified to incorporate such a feature?

(In some theoretical universe nextdoor) Probably.

We must also re-remember that the original Lemania 5100 was also a budget movement and it was discontinued because the 7750 was better in everyway.



If central minutes is so important get a quartz, where they come as more or less standard. :roll: :D

john

[jd]

I don't really understand the thing about a minute subdial being hard to read. Done sensibly (i.e. with 5 minute markers) I find them really easy to read accurately, probably more so than a centre-mins job.

Each to their own I guess

[sweets]

Lemania 5100 was also a budget movement and it was discontinued because the 7750 was better in everyway

That last bit is a nice contentious remark, just dropped in there with no justification, technical or otherwise. :P

In the same spirit, one might respond that

The V7750 was preferred over the L5100 for continual manufacture, despite its inferiority in every respect, because the tooling for manufacture was maintained in a better condition. Also, in the face of having to reduce costs it was politically expedient within the enlarged group to continue to manufacture the in-house movement in preference to the one offered by the newly acquired company.

But I am not sure that either is inherently superior or inferior to such a degree as to warrant either remark.

I'll grant you that the L5100 is not an haute-horologists wet dream, containing such blasphemous materials as delrin and other synthetic materials. However, its worth and technical powess in terms of legibility and under shock and acceleration loads led to Bund selection and issue with no less than 4 manufacturers, something the V7750 doesn't even get close to matching.

I suspect I am not alone in thinking this. Check out the value of the watches that were forced to change from one movement to the other, like the Sinn 156 to 256, or the Fortis Cosmonaut. The market simply doesn't want the V7750 alternative as much as the Lemania.

So whilst I enjoy the throw-away remark, I don't sympathise with the sentiment. At all. you wouldn't expect me to.

I'd also point out that Central minutes aren't standard on quartz either. Far from it. I'm no expert on quartz but the movement you picture is pretty much the only choice as far as I can tell.

And I still don't understand why, because it is a good idea.

D

[Timelord]

Lemania 5100 was also a budget movement and it was discontinued because the 7750 was better in everyway

That last bit is a nice contentious remark, just dropped in there with no justification, technical or otherwise. :P

In the same spirit, one might respond that

The V7750 was preferred over the L5100 for continual manufacture, despite its inferiority in every respect, because the tooling for manufacture was maintained in a better condition. Also, in the face of having to reduce costs it was politically expedient within the enlarged group to continue to manufacture the in-house movement in preference to the one offered by the newly acquired company.

But I am not sure that either is inherently superior or inferior to such a degree as to warrant either remark.

I'll grant you that the L5100 is not an haute-horologists wet dream, containing such blasphemous materials as delrin and other synthetic materials. However, its worth and technical powess in terms of legibility and under shock and acceleration loads led to Bund selection and issue with no less than 4 manufacturers, something the V7750 doesn't even get close to matching.

I suspect I am not alone in thinking this. Check out the value of the watches that were forced to change from one movement to the other, like the Sinn 156 to 256, or the Fortis Cosmonaut. The market simply doesn't want the V7750 alternative as much as the Lemania.

So whilst I enjoy the throw-away remark, I don't sympathise with the sentiment. At all. you wouldn't expect me to.

I'd also point out that Central minutes aren't standard on quartz either. Far from it. I'm no expert on quartz but the movement you picture is pretty much the only choice as far as I can tell.

And I still don't understand why, because it is a good idea.

D

Emphatically agree. :thumbright: I've now twice accidentally deleted my response (doh ) regarding the 5100 "inferiority" along the same lines, but won't need to write it all out yet again.

With regard to the ETA 251.262, it's a great movment that is unique for a quartz AFAIK in having a central minute totaliser. I already have 2 watches containing it (PRS-17C & RT Airspeed Chronograph). However, I believe that more use should be made of it by Tutima, Sinn, Orfina et al as argued here:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=28578&start=270

[abraxas]

................

So whilst I enjoy the throw-away remark, I don't sympathise with the sentiment. At all. you wouldn't expect me to.
........

D

My remarks are too precious to throw away.

Valjoux 7750 versus Lemania 5100
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21146

Lemania 5100 - Anybody else getting worried?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39028

And if you still insist on defending it ... the 5100 is one ugly-looking movement. :P

john

[Timelord]

................

So whilst I enjoy the throw-away remark, I don't sympathise with the sentiment. At all. you wouldn't expect me to.
........

D

My remarks are too precious to throw away.

Valjoux 7750 versus Lemania 5100
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21146

Lemania 5100 - Anybody else getting worried?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39028

And if you still insist on defending it ... the 5100 is one ugly-looking movement. :P

john

Neither of those threads support your unsubstantiated assertions with regard to the "inferiority" of the 5100. :?

The 5100 is not an ugly movement. Rather, it's "interesting" looking, has a great personality and is perfect for viewing through a solid SS or Ti caseback. :wink:

[jd]

I'd be interesting in the other centre-minute quartz options. I think it works better in quartz (because the jumping minute hand is clearer) but I don't see a huge number around.

[abraxas]

I'd be interesting in the other centre-minute quartz options. I think it works better in quartz (because the jumping minute hand is clearer) but I don't see a huge number around.

This kind of thing. Everybody makes them.

john

[Crusader]

I think the 5100 is overrated. So is the 7750.

IMHO, anything beyond time, date and bezel is best served by quartz, be it analog or digital. :twisted:

(Did I mention that I have a Casio PAW1300 Pathfinder/proTrek inbound to take care of my timing needs - day of the week, alarms, countdown, atomic clock sync, compass, altimeter, barometer ... - during an upcoming vacation?) :D :wink:

[Timelord]

I think the 5100 is overrated. So is the 7750.

IMHO, anything beyond time, date and bezel is best served by quartz, be it analog or digital. :twisted:

(Did I mention that I have a Casio PAW1300 Pathfinder/proTrek inbound to take care of my timing needs - day of the week, alarms, countdown, atomic clock sync, compass, altimeter, barometer ... - during an upcoming vacation?) :D :wink:

Neither automatic Valjoux nor automatic Lemania movements are overrated. They do/did what they were intended for, i.e. enabled low to mid range marques (and beyond) in the Swiss/German market sector to produce mechanical automatic chronographs. Let's not forget that without them, most of us wouldn't own any Swiss/German made automatic chronographs other than the Buren calibre 11/12, Dubois Depraz modular movements or the occasional Zenith El Primero. By discontinuing the 5100, an important element of choice was removed.

[Timelord]

I'd be interesting in the other centre-minute quartz options. I think it works better in quartz (because the jumping minute hand is clearer) but I don't see a huge number around.

This kind of thing. Everybody makes them.

john

, not everybody by a long shot. The above RT is no longer made and the Breitlings and Tag Heuers are way overpriced for what they are. The vast majority of Swiss-made chronogrphs use other movements. Furthermore, it is significant that, with the exception of RT, the former main customers of the Lemania 5100 such as Sinn, Tutima and Fortis do not currently use the ETA 251.262.

[abraxas]

, not everybody by a long shot. ........

I bet that you can get more than ten models from different makers ... the movement is more than ten years old.

john