Strange story of the day..

[Dazzler]

Tragic story of couple trapped in their own home by evil housing association :lol:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/8103581.stm

[seikopath]

its just tragic when peoples dogma overtakes their common sense.

[swanbourne]

I can understand their concerns but this sort of thing is what happens at the extreme end of any religion.

Eddie

[ralphy]

So how do Jewish people negotiate darkened areas on the Sabbath?

R

[Chris_in_the_UK]

So how do Jewish people negotiate darkened areas on the Sabbath?

R

+1 :?

[Dr.Brian]

We get a monthly informational poster on cultural awreness issues at work. Last month there was one about Orthodox Jews who cannot use electricity, etc from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. Apparently we are to look out for them waiting near doorways to come and go around the hospital. Apparently they are also prohibited from asking others to do this for them, so we are supposed to ask if they need help getting in/out. :?
Granted that they are at the extreme, but this is the kind of stuff that makes me question most organized religion.
Regards,

[Chris_in_the_UK]

We get a monthly informational poster on cultural awreness issues at work. Last month there was one about Orthodox Jews who cannot use electricity, etc from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. Apparently we are to look out for them waiting near doorways to come and go around the hospital. Apparently they are also prohibited from asking others to do this for them, so we are supposed to ask if they need help getting in/out. :?
Granted that they are at the extreme, but this is the kind of stuff that makes me question most organized religion.
Regards,

Any religeon that restricts electricity usage seems to be very odd :?

Would they be restricted from other basic things in the name of religeon given that I would guess their god is from an era where electricity did not exist?

[Karl]

what a stupid carry on :roll: more religious nutcases. him with a candle on his head saying to the missus do you reckon this soup will taste o.k. cold eh? i told you we should have got a gas cooker.

[Glamdring]

Time for Darwin's Law to apply.

[simonrah]

Hmmm. Some of these posts seem rather intolerant and I suspect are based on ignorance. :(

Well we live in a pluralist society and should respect other people's practices and beliefs. Doesn't seem much of an issue here. Religious Jews observe the Sabbath from sundown on Friday to sundown Saturday and don't work, drive, start fires or switch electrical equipment on or off etc during that time . There's nothing to stop them programming timers in advance of the Sabbath for lights to come on or off as required (which would seem the sensible solution in the case of this particular news story.)

Religious Jews I know either put their ovens on timers, leave them on during the Sabbath or cook their food in advance and use hot plates where necessary to keep food warm, so they certainly are not eating cold soup with a candle on their head.

It doesn't seem unreasonable for people to observe a day of rest away from the stresses of work etc once every seven days, and I can't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

[poppetis]

Bonkers.

[Griswold]

Any religeon that restricts electricity usage seems to be very odd :?

Would they be restricted from other basic things in the name of religeon given that I would guess their god is from an era where electricity did not exist?

Ah, but you're missing something here Chris.... GOD is an omnipoten all seeing entity. He, (She? It?), knows the past, knows the future, has always known the past and will always know the future.

So in the past God looked to the future and saw.......... electricity.

And he saw that it was bad, for it brought about light, and God didn't like that because he'd (she'd? it'd?) made light himself (herself? itself?) just by saying "let there be light" and there it was; and anyway his (hers? it's?) light was good because he (she? it?) said so; no way was he (she? it?) having Man upstump him (her? it?).

But he (she? it?) was a compasionate God and also saw the many benefits that electricity would bring. So he (she? it?) came to a compromise, (6 to 1 in his (hers? its?) favour of course - well you can when you're all powerful too), and told those who would listen that they could have electricity, when they finally got round to discovering it, on the condition that they didn't turn it on or off one day each week.

So there you have it, these people are not mad at all. Indeed, they are blessed for they follow the will of God, but then God saw that they would anyway because, as we well know, he (she? it?) sees and has always seen everything.

So what about those millions of people around the globe who have either not heard of Gods word or have chosen to ignore it?

Damned to eternity they are.

The again, so am I, for talking about religion in the George and Dragon.

Better get my coat and pop off to the Forum of the Banned.

[simonrah]

Well all religious practice will seem "bonkers" if you try and measure it in a rational way - it's based on faith not reason.

You could argue that it's pretty bonkers for the majority of this country to mark a national holiday by eating a turkey in memory of a man who died 2000 years ago and was claimed by his followers to have risen from the dead and be the son of God.

[GraniteQuarry]

Well all religious practice will seem "bonkers" if you try and measure it in a rational way - it's based on faith not reason.

You could argue that it's pretty bonkers for the majority of this country to mark a national holiday by eating a turkey in memory of a man who died 2000 years ago and was claimed by his followers to have risen from the dead and be the son of God.

Nah. I eat turkey that day to celebrate Santa coming, it's nowt to do with religion for me :twisted:

[craggie]

So how do Jewish people negotiate darkened areas on the Sabbath?

I once (briefly!) shared a flat in New York with an observing jew. She was fairly liberal as they go, but I had to leave the lights switched on from Thursday night!

[ralphy]

Ahhh, so the issue (for the couple in the article) is not the lights being on but that they switched them on (albeit by just being there).

But why then doesn't

There's nothing to stop them programming timers in advance of the Sabbath for lights to come on or off as required (which would seem the sensible solution in the case of this particular news story.)

the setting of a timer also fall foul of their beliefs?

R

[Karl]

perverts, lunatics and wife beaters all of them, twisting their kids minds. cant do this cant do that. missus has to walk round in a tent like cloak in case someone sees her ankles :lol: cant eat certain meat but can marry a 10 yr old :roll: isnt there one mob cant have blood transfusions also.

karl

[jk103]

Sounds like a couple of Vampires to me :twisted: Christ if they fell in the dark hallway during their supposed holiday they'd probably sue for money too!

[simonrah]

Ahhh, so the issue (for the couple in the article) is not the lights being on but that they switched them on (albeit by just being there).

But why then doesn't

There's nothing to stop them programming timers in advance of the Sabbath for lights to come on or off as required (which would seem the sensible solution in the case of this particular news story.)

the setting of a timer also fall foul of their beliefs?

R

Because they wouldn't be physically switching lights on and off themselves over the Sabbath.

Ralphy, as a Devon lad, if you're ever in Plymouth you should probably pay a visit to the synagogue there - a beautiful building and one of the oldest in the country - they could probably give you chapter and verse on this!

[simonrah]

perverts, lunatics and wife beaters all of them, twisting their kids minds. cant do this cant do that. missus has to walk round in a tent like cloak in case someone sees her ankles :lol: cant eat certain meat but can marry a 10 yr old :roll: isnt there one mob cant have blood transfusions also.

karl

Karl

For the record none of your cr*p above has anything to do with Jewish people except for "can't eat certain meat," and even then while some Jews only eat kosher food, others don't. Just as some Christians go to Church every week, some don't etc etc etc.

You condemn yourself through your ignorance and prejudice. Very sad and very pathetic. :roll:

[ralphy]

Ahhh, so the issue (for the couple in the article) is not the lights being on but that they switched them on (albeit by just being there).

But why then doesn't

There's nothing to stop them programming timers in advance of the Sabbath for lights to come on or off as required (which would seem the sensible solution in the case of this particular news story.)

the setting of a timer also fall foul of their beliefs?

R

Because they wouldn't be physically switching lights on and off themselves over the Sabbath.

Ralphy, as a Devon lad, if you're ever in Plymouth you should probably pay a visit to the synagogue there - a beautiful building and one of the oldest in the country - they could probably give you chapter and verse on this!

I think I've got it: because they are setting the timer before the Sabbath.

I may well do the synagogue visit sometime as I've no conception as to how they are; I've been privileged to visit a couple of mosques in the middle east - quite rare for a non-believer I believe.

R

[GraniteQuarry]

perverts, lunatics and wife beaters all of them, twisting their kids minds. cant do this cant do that. missus has to walk round in a tent like cloak in case someone sees her ankles :lol: cant eat certain meat but can marry a 10 yr old :roll: isnt there one mob cant have blood transfusions also.

karl

Karl

For the record none of your cr*p above has anything to do with Jewish people except for "can't eat certain meat," and even then while some Jews only eat kosher food, others don't. Just as some Christians go to Church every week, some don't etc etc etc.

You condemn yourself through your ignorance and prejudice. Very sad and very pathetic. :roll:

The only thing sad and pathetic is your faith in this crap, another holier-than-thou religious zealot. I have no problem with people supporting religion, but don't get all nippy-arsed because others don't share your view.

Or said more bluntly GTF :evil:

(BTW my apologies to all others, i realise this thread shouldn't be in G&D and thereby i really shouldn't be adding to it)

[simonrah]

David

You are an offensive idiot. I am neither a religious zealot nor do I support zealots of any religion. Where's your evidence for making such a statement?

On the contrary I support the right of any person to practice their faiths or beliefs or indeed to have no faith or belief as we live in a pluralist society. That is the only view I've expressed.

Racism, ignorance and prejudice should always be challenged. It is very sad indeed to encounter it in this forum and your puerile and offensive crass comments will not intimidate me.

[Dazzler]

Okay, okay, no need for a Jihad to be started by my post. Only put it in the G&D because I thought it was amusing.

Seems to me setting a timer or leaving a light on is pretty much cheating. Wouldn't want those doctors working on me "Pass the defribulator" "Sorry I can't use it because of my beliefs". I assume these people don't use an ambulance on the Sabbath? Just let me die, I don't want to be the cause of an engine starting because of my broken leg or heart attack.

[ralphy]

I cannot see any evidence of simonrah being either a zealot or adopting a holier-that-thou attitude.

There has been evidence of racial ignorance in this thread though.

R

[simonrah]

Okay, okay, no need for a Jihad to be started by my post. Only put it in the G&D because I thought it was amusing.

Seems to me setting a timer or leaving a light on is pretty much cheating. Wouldn't want those doctors working on me "Pass the defribulator" "Sorry I can't use it because of my beliefs". I assume these people don't use an ambulance on the Sabbath? Just let me die, I don't want to be the cause of an engine starting because of my broken leg or heart attack.

Just checked with my very orthodox Jewish colleague who tells me the preservation of human life would override the laws of the Sabbath, so there would be no issue about calling for a doctor, riding in an ambulance, receiving or giving medical treatment of any kind etc.

[Filterlab]

Simplest answer;

Remove the bulbs from the 'automatic' lights, buy a few table lamps. Sorted.

[Dazzler]

Okay, okay, no need for a Jihad to be started by my post. Only put it in the G&D because I thought it was amusing.

Seems to me setting a timer or leaving a light on is pretty much cheating. Wouldn't want those doctors working on me "Pass the defribulator" "Sorry I can't use it because of my beliefs". I assume these people don't use an ambulance on the Sabbath? Just let me die, I don't want to be the cause of an engine starting because of my broken leg or heart attack.

Just checked with my very orthodox Jewish colleague who tells me the preservation of human life would override the laws of the Sabbath, so there would be no issue about calling for a doctor, riding in an ambulance, receiving or giving medical treatment of any kind etc.

Ah right - seems sensible. What about the health and safety aspects of the lighting?

[Filterlab]

What about the health and safety aspects of the lighting?

Like what?

[Dazzler]

Preventing an injury that may require treatment on the Sabbath, or prevention of injury to others.

[Filterlab]

Preventing an injury that may require treatment on the Sabbath, or prevention of injury to others.

Well they've managed for a few thousand years up to now, so I'm sure the lack of automatic lighting won't cause too many deaths/injuries/legal action.

[robcuk]

My Grandmother used to earn cash as a little girl by lighting fires on the Sabbath for some of the local Orthodox Jews!

They used to pay her for being a 'bonny wee lassie' with the unspoken context being that she would light their fires 'unasked' so they had not breached the 'rules' by asking her or paying her to do so. And this was over 85 years ago!

I thought that these sought of light controllers were acceptable because they did this function everyday,they weren't installed purely to subvert the religious rules, in some aprtment buildings in Israel the lifts have s sabbath setting when they stop at every floor up & down automatically, that's great unless you live on the 35th floor :lol:

[simonrah]

Ah right - seems sensible. What about the health and safety aspects of the lighting?

No Health and Safety issues as fas as I can tell - all the religious Jews I know either leave lights on over the Sabbath or use timers. It's not cheating either as Jews light two candles just before the sabbath comes in. As Ralphy correctly points out it would be fine for a timer to be programmed or a light to be put on before the sabbath started, but not during it.

BTW the original story is interesting because of the inflexibility of all the parties involved. It seems very extreme for these people to have to pursue the matter through the Courts and also rather extreme for the block owners to refuse to allow the couple to pay for an override switch/timer to be used on the Sabbath.

I would nominate filterlab to act as the mediator in this case, as he seems to have come up with an eminently sensible solution!

Simplest answer;

Remove the bulbs from the 'automatic' lights, buy a few table lamps. Sorted.

[ralphy]

My Grandmother used to earn cash as a little girl by lighting fires on the Sabbath for some of the local Orthodox Jews!

They used to pay her for being a 'bonny wee lassie' with the unspoken context being that she would light their fires 'unasked' so they had not breached the 'rules' by asking her or paying her to do so. And this was over 85 years ago!

Great story! As with most aspects of religon that are 'inconvenient' to the followers you can rely on human ingenuity to usually circumvent it.

R

[Karl]

i'm not just on about jewish folk i mean anyone who has mad religious beliefs. i just think they are a bit strange is all. you cant tell me about it i've seen some funny stuff, i grew up with and still mates with paki's, arabs, west indian, english, poles. all my mates are round the twist and their parents even dafter. it causes more trouble than its worth is what i think. i remember a yemeni mate's dad bringing a 16yr old bird back home in his late 50's and tryin to move her in saying his religion allowed it and his english mum knifing him :lol: his sisters a mad keen christian and the dad wont speak to her anymore because she married a english lad! i'm not having a go at anyone Simon i'm just laughing at it all. i find lifes complicated enough without trying to follow the rules in some crusty old religious book that wont allow you to make a cup of tea on bank holidays. lifes too short.

karl

[Filterlab]

I would nominate filterlab to act as the mediator in this case, as he seems to have come up with an eminently sensible solution!

LOL! Arrr thank yorrr. Sensible solutions and I have always seen eye to eye. ;)

[simonrah]

i'm not just on about jewish folk i mean anyone who has mad religious beliefs. i just think they are a bit strange is all. you cant tell me about it i've seen some funny stuff, i grew up with and still mates with paki's, arabs, west indian, english, poles. all my mates are round the twist and their parents even dafter. it causes more trouble than its worth is what i think. i remember a yemeni mate's dad bringing a 16yr old bird back home in his late 50's and tryin to move her in saying his religion allowed it and his english mum knifing him :lol: his sisters a mad keen christian and the dad wont speak to her anymore because she married a english lad! i'm not having a go at anyone Simon i'm just laughing at it all. i find lifes complicated enough without trying to follow the rules in some crusty old religious book that wont allow you to make a cup of tea on bank holidays. lifes too short.

karl

No problem Karl - I appreciate you putting it into context. :)

[ralphy]

i'm not just on about jewish folk i mean anyone who has mad religious beliefs. i just think they are a bit strange is all. you cant tell me about it i've seen some funny stuff, i grew up with and still mates with paki's, arabs, west indian, english, poles. all my mates are round the twist and their parents even dafter. it causes more trouble than its worth is what i think. i remember a yemeni mate's dad bringing a 16yr old bird back home in his late 50's and tryin to move her in saying his religion allowed it and his english mum knifing him :lol: his sisters a mad keen christian and the dad wont speak to her anymore because she married a english lad! i'm not having a go at anyone Simon i'm just laughing at it all. i find lifes complicated enough without trying to follow the rules in some crusty old religious book that wont allow you to make a cup of tea on bank holidays. lifes too short.

karl

You've got some strange mates! And thanks for clarifying your earlier post.

I quite agree with you about the mad religious believers, ISTM that all religions have their fanatics - and they are the ones that a) give the religion a bad press and b) cause most of the trouble; but the vast majority of the followers just quietly 'get on' with their beliefs.

R

[bobar]

A good read that embraces some of the topics aired on this thread is Kalooki Nights by Howard Jacobson

It's set in Manchester in the 1950's.

Have fun.

Regards.

Bob.

[Karl]

You've got some strange mates!

i'm sure its the same for lots of people, theres thugs, drug dealers, armed robbers, crazed alcoholics-junkies, crooked buisnessmen, honest buisnessmen, a policeman, and me and maybe? a couple others normal and sensible. can be very entertaining when you get them together and give them a drink :lol:

karl

[Dazzler]

Lol - my Yorkshire mates are savages too! You've never been on a stag-do till you've been on one with Yorkshiremen! :lol: :lol: 8)

[Pink Floyd]

read through this and I believe that these people, who believe in their narrow and straight religion, do get something enjoyable out of it, perhaps it makes them better humans.
but I am of different opinion myself. I reside with the Thompson view on life:
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in one pretty and well preserved piece, but to skid across the line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, shouting GERONIMO!" Hunter S. Thompson in his book Hell's Angels

[simonrah]

Well we can all certainly believe in resurrection now - this thread is seven months old.

read through this and I believe that these people, who believe in their narrow and straight religion, do get something enjoyable out of it, perhaps it makes them better humans.
but I am of different opinion myself. I reside with the Thompson view on life:
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in one pretty and well preserved piece, but to skid across the line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, shouting GERONIMO!" Hunter S. Thompson in his book Hell's Angels

[swanbourne]

Well we can all certainly believe in resurrection now - this thread is seven months old.

Aye but it was the post which transported him through the portal to Sales Corner :evil: .

Eddie

[Dazzler]

Well we can all certainly believe in resurrection now - this thread is seven months old.

Aye but it was the post which transported him through the portal to Sales Corner :evil: .

Eddie

To be fair he just wants one of your watches so far Eddie viewtopic.php?f=21&t=105071