Aussie Military Issue Smith's Deluxe remains a mystery

[Chris in Melbourne]

A couple of months ago I was lucky enough to pick up the following mil spec Smiths Deluxe:





I believe only about 5 are in collectors hands and no information is known on this particular watch. They have anti-magnetic double cases and have the look of the Mark XI navigators watch.

All five known examples have 1961 issue dates and all are under 600.

All have the same 13 figure STANAG stock number with 66 in the second group indicating Australian issue.

I thought these might have been an alternative or suppliment to the JLC and IWC Mark XIs issued in the RAAF in 1950, 1953 and 1957 but I've since learnt this is unlikely.

Today I heard from Greg Steer who is an authority in RAAF timepieces.

Greg had not heard of these Smiths Deluxe and pointed out that they are not RAAF navigator watches. His reasoning is very logical. Each year the RAAF had their navigator watches timed and serviced and these recalls were communicated to squadrons via periodical RAAF Air Board Orders. The serial numbers of watches recalled were listed in these Air Board Orders.

According to Greg, he has never seen a XXX/61 serial number listed in the Air Board Orders recalls. As a result, these Smiths Deluxe and not RAAF issue navigator watches.

So, if not RAAF issue, what could they have belonged to?

During the 60s the Royal Australian Navy had it's own Fleet Air Arm. Maybe the RAN had a requirement for Navigator's watch?

So, I'm no closer to finding out which organisation in Australia issued these Smiths Deluxe watches.

If any UKTZ knows or finds anything about these interesting English made mil spec timepieces I would love to hear about it!

Kind regards and safe and happy Easter to all....

Chris in Melbourne

[Terry]

Chris, have replied on MWR and repeat here.

You may be on to something with a connection to the RAN. Here's a couple of things to think about.

An early batch of RAN HS/|\9 Lemania one-button chronographs were marked with the prefix RAN No xx. I've recorded No 23, No 51 & No 91. Could be a link in the way the two watches were marked with the prefix No.

The RAN Fleet Air Arm (FAA) went through quite a rapid expansion in the 1960's and perhaps there was justification for a 600 watch purchase.

Navigator's in the RAN are known as Observers and perhaps a focus on Observer rather than Navigator may yield more information.

Have you contacted the RAN Fleet Air Arm Museum near Nowra? There is a Museum Manager by the name of Terry Hetherington, he may be able to shed some light or put you in touch with some retired RAN Observers.

There is quite a lot of FAA historical information on the RAN website. Good luck with the hunt.

Terry

[Spencer Lee]

Not sure about 13 figure STANAG numbers, but if they are the same as 13 figure NATO stock numbers the second group of two numbers (66 in your case) refers to the country of origin and not the end user. Subsequently, if they are similar, it could mean the watch originated from Australia but was not necessarily used by the Australians. For instance, if it was '99' it would have originated from UK; '01' and it would have been American. Again, don't know if STANAG and NATO numbers are comparable, the only comparison i could make are the Marathon watches which have a '21' (Canadian) number but are used by the Americans. Hope this does'nt confues the issue! :roll:

[Chris in Melbourne]

Chris, have replied on MWR and repeat here.

You may be on to something with a connection to the RAN. Here's a couple of things to think about.

An early batch of RAN HS/|\9 Lemania one-button chronographs were marked with the prefix RAN No xx. I've recorded No 23, No 51 & No 91. Could be a link in the way the two watches were marked with the prefix No.

The RAN Fleet Air Arm (FAA) went through quite a rapid expansion in the 1960's and perhaps there was justification for a 600 watch purchase.

Navigator's in the RAN are known as Observers and perhaps a focus on Observer rather than Navigator may yield more information.

Have you contacted the RAN Fleet Air Arm Museum near Nowra? There is a Museum Manager by the name of Terry Hetherington, he may be able to shed some light or put you in touch with some retired RAN Observers.

There is quite a lot of FAA historical information on the RAN website. Good luck with the hunt.

Terry

Thank you for taking the time to reply Terry! That's a good avenue of enquiry for me to track down.

I didn't know about difference in terminology between the RAN Observers and RAAF Navigators. I spent my time in the Army :-)

I'll post what I find.

Kind regards

Chris

[Chris in Melbourne]

Not sure about 13 figure STANAG numbers, but if they are the same as 13 figure NATO stock numbers the second group of two numbers (66 in your case) refers to the country of origin and not the end user. Subsequently, if they are similar, it could mean the watch originated from Australia but was not necessarily used by the Australians. For instance, if it was '99' it would have originated from UK; '01' and it would have been American. Again, don't know if STANAG and NATO numbers are comparable, the only comparison i could make are the Marathon watches which have a '21' (Canadian) number but are used by the Americans. Hope this does'nt confues the issue! :roll:

Hi Spencer,

Thank you for your reply. These 13 figure stock numbers have been known as Federal Stock Numbers, National Stock Numbers, Defence Stock Numbers and NATO Stock Numbers.

I don't know who made them up but under the NATO Standarisation Agreement (STANAG) just about all Western Countries use them for their defence related equipments.

Australia has never been a member of NATO yet we use these 13 figure stock numbers for our defence related equipment.

As previously stated 66 is our number.

What bamboozals (Sp) me is that these Smith's Deluxe are clearly Made in England. The Aquatight cases are believed to be manufactured by Dennisons of Birmingham.

As these watched are clearly not Australian made the 66 must therefore indicate the country of origin for the order or end use to be by Australia.

I'm surprised more of these haven't surfaced. There are 2 in Germany, 2 in UK and mine. There must be many more floating about. I would love to know more about them however information is quite elusive!

The plot thickens!

Kind regards

Chris

[Spencer Lee]

Could the parts have been made in UK and assembled in Australia?

I got this list of NATO Stock number NCB codes (countries of origin) which says that most countries have an NCB and do not necessarily have to be in NATO:

http://www.nato.int/STRUCTUR/AC/135/mai ... codsp3.htm

Not that it helps much, you've already established the Oz connection. Sorry i cannot be of more help.