I have bought from Iconic Watches a few times but not for many years. I got this email today which may be of interest to some, though I'd have thought a trade buyer may have gone in and took the stock:
Some interesting lots, including accessories and some big name brands: https://auctions.adampartridge.co.uk...sfield/?au=169
This is the link from the original email to register to bid: https://auctions.adampartridge.co.uk/Account/Register/
Ant
I used to pop over to see their bricks and mortar shop in Blackburn when I lived over there. Only a small example in the window of their tinternet stock though. Sorry to see they have gone. Bert Humberstones across the road from them always had some pre owned watches in too.
Some very nice watches in that auction. The Nautilus with the mini-rotor is stunning.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I hadn’t realised they wound up. Ancient & Modern / Iconic seemed to be one of the main secondhand/grey dealers a few years ago. Looks like they had to wind it up after playing games with tax compliance. Over £5m owed, plus over £2m in penalty for deliberate but not concealed conduct. Don’t mess with the taxman!
https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...5m-vat-battle/
I’ve been saying this from that time. Lots of “grey market” dealers engaged in this on unworn watches from the EU in that period IMO
The basic premise is this: goods move between EU member states VAT free. Let’s say there’s a 12k Rolex: instead of the Spanish shop charging the UK shop 12k, they charge 10k (ie no VaT charged). The rules very clearly state that when the item eventually sells, VAT is charged (if applicable….ie you wouldn’t charge VAT if the watch was exported out of the EU by the UK shop).
The other problem this set up creates is whichever country the items comes from then have to refund the supplying dealer a load of VAT. No exchequer likes doing this and it triggers investigations
In this case, I suspect the Italian dealer operated fully legally. And A&M pretended they were dealing with second hand goods and accounted for the goods on the margin scheme instead of normal VAT
In those days it was the perfect storm. The euro was cheap. EU dealers could not shift stock. The rules allowed ex VAT supply (this still applies to EU member states). This meant the Rolex agent in say Italy would sell his items for very small margins just to shift it before the next batch arrived from Rolex. 50k Rolex sold at 30% discount. Then the VAT is reclaimed. That takes the cost of the watch down to roughly 30k. Italian business sells for say 33k.
Watch arrives in the UK. Remember watches were routinely sold for 20-30% discount from list on grey market then. That watch that cost the UK business 33k is sold for 40k.
Buyer gets 20% off the 50k list price. Happy
UK business makes 7k. Happy.
Italian business makes 3k. Happy
Italian Rolex agent makes a small margin and maintains the Rolex agency. Happy.
Italian tax man loses a load of revenue legitimately. Not happy
UK tax man loses a load of revenue illegitimately. Not happy.
UK tax man not happy because the UK business should have charged full vat on the 40k sale, not accounted for it on the margin scheme. Full vat on 40k means they have effectively charged 33.3k plus 6.66k vat. Remember they paid 33k for the watch. Margin scheme means they paid about £1200 vat and made £5800 profit. Only they didn’t make any profit really as this judgment shows
Thank you for that, had always wondered how it worked.Originally Posted by Snowdon
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Yeah, agreed.
The name rang a bell in my distant memory, so it was interesting to see how that business worked.
Given the market & Brexit, it’s not hard to see how that business would likely not be sustainable.
And there was quite probably some HMRC Mystery Shoppers employed who verified that some of this stock was actually brand new and not pre owned.
The likely response from Iconic to the Investigation team would state the goods were second hand / pre owned thereby qualifying for Vat payable on the margin.
The Mystery Shoppers would ask the sales team if the watch was new. “Oh yes Sir, sourced directly from an official Rolex Dealer in Europe. It’s never been worn. All the stickers are intact”. Assuming the Italian AD didn’t remove the stickers.
Would only take HMRC a handful of real purchases to establish the truth
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Ouch. That would smart a bit.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Have attempted to register to bid out of interest and basically my ID has been uploaded.. and status is showing as 'Pending.' Two days after uploading.
Looks like I won't be allowed to be at the party anytime soon? How long should it take for the auction house to confirm my id?
Funny you should ask that..
No such delays on the new auction platform www.watchshuffle.com !
One of the UK’s oldest dealers and always been good people.
I wish Zac and Gail all the best after a collective 120 years serving the market.
Aside from the tax fraud.
Cheers,
Neil.
Did you two used to burn insects with a magnifying glass when younger !
My Tudor BB came from Iconic. They were great to deal with. Didn't particularly like the location of the shop in Blackburn though.
Bought and sold with them over the years.
Always fair.
Costs add up quickly on the VAT to pay on the hammer price PLUS the buyers premium of 10% or 20% (+moreVAT)
Means a £2K hammer price becomes £2976 and a £4K hammer price would be £5376...
It is pretty stupid to try and screw the VAT man, he is Customs and Excise, not to be trifled with.
No, but fudging what you should be paying is not the done thing.
No way it is an accident for so many years.
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This. The Skydweller is at £8,000 already; that's £11,520 all found for a watch that's presently dropping in value and can readily be bought for under £15k with a warranty and more convincing provenance. The 5712 needs to hammer well below £50k to be cheaper than the cheapest UK listing on C24 (at £77,450), albeit that's an older watch. Sometimes you see auction bargains, but often I think people fail to appreciate the impact of buyer's premium, never mind full VAT in this case, or just get carried away.
Funny you should say that..
No such extortion on the new auction platform www.watchshuffle.com ! Fees are capped at 6% or £600. Whichever is higher!
Fwiw, I had one dealing with them. Their sales guy Johnny Marr was alive then. I turned up at the shop having agreed a price for an unworn watch. They knew I’d travelled a long distance. Turned up and they changed the deal. I ended up dealing with someone else. And that was enough to avoid them since
Do you know these guys?
Last edited by namzo; 25th March 2025 at 01:32.
Does anyone ever really pick up bargains at these auctions. By the time you add VAT and hammer price you nearly always end up paying over the odds. Is it just suckers that get drawn in by the low estimates?
Agreed, I follow classic motorcycle auctions. Often the guide price is set so unrealistically low you would be “ daft not to bid”. Then in the heat of the auctions folk see only the bidding value forgetting the multiplier effect of charges. The only bargains I see are vehicles that no one wanted that auction eg pre war or 2000’s.
Hi, I'm one of the founders of www.watchshuffle.com.
I've resisted replying or mentioning the business here (relatively new startup) as did not want to fall foul of any TZ rules but yes, we do charge a 6% fee (maximum is £600). Please feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
If I'm allowed to say (mods?), our journey is best captured on LinkedIn.
Thanks
Zahid
Last edited by Zahid; 25th March 2025 at 10:46.
I'll bookmark your site, never used LinkedIn myself as past working age (for me anyway!). No mods on TZ!
“ Ford... you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.” HHGTTG
Thank you Martyn, appreciate that.
I bought my Longines Hydroconquest from Iconic back in 2012.
I was very happy with the price and the service at the time, but it seems the reason for the former is now apparent.
It was certainly never presented as a 'used' product when I bought it.
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Should be this an RIP thread?
I Know It's Over
I sent them a 20% deposit in 2014 for a new Breitling.
2 weeks later they contacted me to say they had sourced one from a shop in Barcelona.
I drove to the shop to collect and was very happy with the service.
This was before Brexit, and I guess the rule breaking started after 2016.
Perfect example of the scam in operation
People forget that this was the Watchfinder way of doing business back in the day, majority of the time not 'physical' stock, sourcing after an order etc.... Then again they were probably not circumventing the Margin Scheme..... I had bought from iconic years ago and the service was good tbf.
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