So the wife's lease Mercedes goes in for it's service today.
I thought I'd let her get on with it as I figure she's old enough to know the usual upselling stuff.
That was my first mistake.
Needless to say an expensive bill has emerged at the end of the day.
The only thing I did emphasise was not to let them fit new tyres as we would get them through Blackcircles.
So one of the extras on the service that has been done was wheel alignment at an eye watering £280.
I am going to go the dealership tomorrow to pick up the car and going to ask why they would do wheel alignment before 2 new front tyres are changed.
Anyone in the know have any justification that they could give me for doing that?
Also going to ask why they have replaced rear discs and pads on a car at 18K miles when the sensors didn't reflect this ie.no warning light.
TIA
For what it’s worth I was looking at changing SWMBO’s car tyres earlier today and it seems that very surprisingly Halfords was cheaper than Blackcircles for Michelin Crossclimate 2 (195/55 R16)
As a subsequent question, what other dimensions could I fit on those rims? Thinking of something like 205/55 R16.
Last edited by Saint-Just; 13th November 2024 at 21:06.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
What did your wife agree to and who with? Probably adding on unnecessary charges and if a customer accepts, a win for them.
Garages are doing plenty of pocket alignment.
£280 for wheel alignment… that’s crazy and 18k for new disks??
Think my wheel alignment was something like £75 and still on same disks at 36000
Last edited by craig1912; 13th November 2024 at 21:23.
You can get a hunter wheel alignment from the usual suspects for £70 or so - but it's always done on the premise that they check first up on the jig as to whether it is required or falling within acceptable specs, free of charge, then give you the choice to proceed at the £70 or not... £280 just sounds like $tealer pricing at its best, but I would like to understand why/if it has been checked before proceeding with the alignment.
18k miles for a pair of discs is unacceptable for the fronts, never mind the rears which do not work as hard. I can pretty much guarantee these have been changed for the sake of upselling, and not out of any possible necessity.
I would be asking for the old brake parts back for an independent inspection, no way rear brakes have gone in 18k unless the vehicle has be on track days.
I’m hard on brakes, but the rear brakes on my Merc went first but that wasn’t till 50k miles, it’s the hold system that wears them out. As for the tracking BMW used to charge a fortune as they loaded the seats with weights to simulate bodies then adjusted them, whether it was a gimmick or not I never got to the bottom off, back to Merc though I used to get mine tracked frequently as it went through tyres like they were going out of fashion,Originally Posted by RossC
Better to correct the alignment to prevent uneven wear before fitting new tyres if the previous ones were worn unevenly. The alignment isn’t normally altered by tyre condition.
They would probably replace brakes if they thought they would wear out in the near future before the next service. Therefore saving the owner more downtime.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Nothing wrong with having the alignment done, it’s how much he’s been charged. Something is also wrong if the disks have only lasted 18000 miles, they should last somewhere between 30000 and 80000.
Mine were checked today as part of a service at 36000. The car tells me the pads need doing in approx 9000 miles but discs are good for a couple of years.
The garage is ripping him off.
You sure?
Surely you would fit the tyres then align them as fitting the tyres could change the alignment.
If they do insist on alignment being justified I'll be asking for the print out of before and after.
Why would fitting tyres change the alignment?
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
My suspicion is they won't say the rear discs were worn out - as has been said, no way in 18k - but rather that they had rust or pitting. That can happen if the brakes aren't used hard. I'm not saying they were rusty; I just suspect that might be their line ...
Dealerships aren’t renowned for low pricing. If you give permission for anything it’s wise to ask the cost.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
No idea though it did say on the Mercedes forum that you would fit tyres first . I'd have thought if you were messing about with wheels and tyres it would make sense to have it done afterwards.
I'm also of the way of thinking that they would be thinking we will get £280 pocketed whilst we can.
Do you think that charge is reasonable ?.
Having done thousands of wheel alignments in my time i always insist that tyres are replaced first if they are badly worn. Ive been asked to carry out wheel alignment on worn tyres many times and it normally results in the steering wheel being misaligned after the tyres are replaced. A square/flat footprint is more accurate and negates having to readjust with worn tyres especially if theyve gone off badly on the edges.
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 13th November 2024 at 23:45.
How would the tyres being worn result in the steering wheel being misaligned? That would normally only happen if the track was adjusted one side only. Which can give the correct toe value but the rack centres and misaligns the wheel. I have carried out hundreds of wheel alignments in the past and never found that to be a problem, especially since using turning plates negates any binding effects of the tyres.
The footprint of the tyre should have no bearing at all on the alignment, the idea that a tyre worn on one edge would affect the camber/castor/toe in/toe out of a vehicle seems odd when suspension components are specifically designed to prevent such movement.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Taking the wheels off and changing the tyres should have no effect on steering angles. They should remain good or bad as they were.
I have no idea of pricing to be honest, it's a few years since I was involved in that game, but as I said nothing is cheap at dealerships.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I don’t disagree. My service yesterday I was asked if any extra work was required what amount in £’s should they contact me before doing it. The choice was 0, less than £250, more than £250. I chose zero.
I also agree that alignment can be done anytime and just changing the tyres doesn’t change the alignment.
It will be interesting to see how the dealer can justify £280 though. Even half of that is top end of what it should be.
In the OP’s shoes I’d be having a conversation with the garage about my wife being taken advantage of with their pricing due to her being naive and therefore looking for a discount on the work completed.
I’m assuming that the garage quoted your wife prices for the work “needed” and that she approved them to go ahead? On that basis I’d go in armed with reasonable prices for the work completed and try to get them down on their prices. Main dealership labour is notoriously expensive and I’d imagine rear discs and pads would have been charged at close to £500 on top of the £280 alignment. I’d be wanting at least a £250 discount and even then it’d be a painful experience.
Good luck OP
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My local tyre company charges £10 for front wheel alignment if you’re buying tyres from them, which I do as they’re the cheapest around. They don’t do rear wheel alignment though.
Last time I used them they didn’t charge me anything as the alignment was spot on when they checked it and didn’t need adjusting.
Best Regards - Peter
I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.
A friend of mine was charged something like £300 by a Porsche dealer to have his wheel alignment done as part of a service. He hadn't requested it and they reduced it to £100. More questions arise though, I have used Micheldever Tyres, where the price last time was £45 and a few months before £30 (I'm now bored of them for more than the randomness of their prices) and a place in Southampton close to Ikea was £50 last time I was there. Both used some kind of laser alignment and both provided me with before and after printouts. Did the OP's wife receive these? It seems like alignment is something that will never be quite spot on so an easy £280 or £300 for a dealer to pop on the top of a service.
A few years ago I was advised the brake pads needed changing on a car because they were worn... down to 75%.
Thinking about it, if the OP's wife's dealer didn't provide the tracking printouts perhaps he should offer them the £50 going rate on receipt of the paperwork.
"A man of little significance"
That will make your speedo slightly less accurate (2%). It might also cause interference issues (ie tyre rubbing on bits that it shouldn't rub on whilst on full lock. But given the small increase in size it shouldn't cause any problems. You'll also have to change all 4 tyres as having odd sizes front and back might cause your abs light to come on.
If you have a quick google there are a number of tyre size calculators which will allow you to change the various parameters (width, profile).
Only pay for the work you asked them to do, for anything else they should have contacted you for authorisation, if you've already paid and collected the car contact whoever is in charge of the dealership and request a refund
On the pricey side but I think the days of £80 alignments are probably behind us. £150 plus MB tax, it's going to cost that I guess.
Always cheaper alternatives, but does the coffee taste as good?
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My local admittedly very small family run independent garage does it for about £20 but their equipment is not as high end as larger garages.
Seems to do the job perfectly fine though.
Just posted on your other thread:
£280 for wheel alignment?
Good grief!
Had mine done on Tuesday for £72. (£60 plus VAT).
Volvo AWD XC60, so a bit of a pain for them (apparently) as they have to adjust all 4 wheels.
Unless there was something badly wrong with the car that makes no sense, you only adjust the corners that are out, you do check all four corners
If you have a Costco nearby, they have a winter deal on at the moment on Michelin Cross Climate 2's.
They were the cheapest by quite a margin for mine, particularly if you need 4.
(235/60 R18 103V XL) SUV.
- - - Updated - - -
All 4 were out.
That's a good tip, thank you. Unfortunately I am not a member (yet). Never bothered because the nearest Costco is about 50 miles and one toll away.
However if a member could check the deal for me, and if they ship rather than fit, I could get an online membership. Size-wise 205/55 R16 please. For a small series 1 Beemer so load not really relevant (= any).
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Pretty sure Costco do not ship loose tyres.
Also - they get sniffy about fitting just 2 tyres to a 4WD (2WD with auto 4 and locked 4WD ) car (even if locked 4WD is speed limited).
Official word from them:
FOUR WHEEL DRIVE AND ALL WHEEL DRIVE VEHICLES
It is always recommended to replace tyres on Four Wheel Drive and All Wheel Drive vehicles in complete sets. When purchasing less than four tyres, the tyre size, tyre profile, load index and speed rating must be the same on all 4 wheels and the overall tread depth between the old tyres and the new tyres must not be greater than 4mm. If less than a complete set of tyres is purchased, the new tyres will be installed on the rear of the vehicle. The final decision to install a tyre on a vehicle will be made by the Costco tyre centre manager or supervisor. The tyre must meet all vehicle manufacturers’ safety standards and specifications. Costco cannot take responsibility for mechanical issues that could occur from installing less than 4 tyres.
Last edited by blackal; 14th November 2024 at 15:43.
Why would they need to adjust all 4 wheels?
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
If you had a tyre that was, for instance, 6mm inner edge, 3-4mm centre and 0mm on the outside edge you would have to be insane to carry out an alignment on them. If you had a reasonable tyre that was kind of uniformly worn across the entire breadth then I’d agree but given the tyre I described above which is quite common I would never align without them being done first.
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Write me a post that says you know nothing about geometry of a car without saying it.
FFF given your trade, as expected, the only useful post here.
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I've only had one car (Mercedes) where I got the tracking realigned - due to uneven tyre wear. Done by a specialist in Edinburgh as most garages avoided the multi-link suspension.
But - my take on it is - the tyres wear to conform to the badly adjusted wheel alignment
You get the wheel re-aligned with laser equipt across the wheel faces (no input from state of tyres)
From that point - the tyres will start to wear to the new correct alignment.
You suffer some tyre scrub during that wear period (similar to the rate that they wore initially)- until you get around (time or cost limitation) to getting new tyres fitted.
£250 seems pricy (but may include VAT) for what should be 30mins' work (but they probably round up to 1hr)
They only supply and fit.That's a good tip, thank you. Unfortunately I am not a member (yet). Never bothered because the nearest Costco is about 50 miles and one toll away.
However if a member could check the deal for me, and if they ship rather than fit, I could get an online membership. Size-wise 205/55 R16 please. For a small series 1 Beemer so load not really relevant (= any
Michelin 205/55 R16 91 (V) CROSSCLIMATE 2
£89.98 each incl VAT and fitting.
Unfortunately the special deal I mentioned seems to have ended now.
The Primacy 3 RFT run-flats are £99.99 each incl VAT and fitting.
Thank you.
That would have been worth driving to Thurrock...
I did teach in my younger years but not sure it would be enough to qualify anyway.
PS: I had found the page but as a non member the price did not appear.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
My thoughts on the matter agree with yours; the trackrod is connected to the hub and it is the hubs that are actually being aligned. Any wheel and tyre fastened to the hub should then be correctly aligned regardless of the state of the tyre.
The wear on the tyre would have no effect on the alignment readings.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Something not right there, if they really did, only two things I can think of, either it had been done incorrectly previously and the steering wheel was off, or it had been in a shunt
You're looking at Caster, camber and toe across the axles and then the relationship between the two axles, the adjustments available depend on the car, it has become a nice earner but it's not clever, most race cars are set up using string and measurements.
Last edited by adrianw; 14th November 2024 at 18:17.
But wrong.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Exactly that. And I'd like to know how they're adjusting the rear wheels alignment in about half an hour.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I go annually to have my Honda’s wheel alignment, fella is an expert with a Hunter unit with the latest upgrades and training courses, £75 to check and do minor adjustments, seized joints will be quoted on, 3 way laser alignment on all 4 wheels, as long as tyres are worn evenly he’ll do it at max tread depth or minimum. Main dealers-especially prestige marques?- will charge max hourly rates, I’ve seen £200+ in city locations, indies £60/75, rear pads and discs should be an hours labour but oe parts can be really expensive. I’d want to know why the rears needed changed at such a low mileage, worn out, or heat damage or rust on discs, maybe they thought a woman could be easily bamboozled, I heard some shit from the service desk when working parts dept at a main dealer, I could do that job, I have scruples, and wasn’t paid bonus.
Talking of upselling, they are all at it, I needed a new windscreen last week, £100 excess through insurance, no problem, booked with Admirals partner Autoglass, went through the website to book, I was faced with 3 options when I said I was going through insurance, Option 1 Luxury package £180 - that includes new blades and a Rain X application, option 2 - Advanced package - £149 includes blades, option 3 - Poverty option- just the screen £100.
Obviously took the poverty option, even then the fitter tried his best to sell me the blades at £49 on my drive when he fitted the screen, he did give a wry smile when I politely declined. Chancers.
Cheers..
Jase
Billy bargain that. Min wage is £12 a hour!
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That’s the print out from the wheel alignment
Not sure if anyone knowledgeable has anything to say on initial and final reading
So the girl from service dept said this morning that she knew the wheel alignment shouldn’t have been done before new tyres were fitted but she couldn’t get hold of my wife and as she hadn’t unticked the box in her reply that meant she had authorised it and it then gets done.
Interestingly she said she was having this conversation as the guy had the car on the machine at 4.30
Reading on machine at final reading is 17.06
So roughly 30 mins and it’s been charged through at 2 hours work
Had to pay it to get car out but will pursue it through Mercedes UK
Also asked why no warning light came on for pads and discs on rear if they required immediate replacement
According to girl only the front pads have sensors
Will check that one out.
Yeah - they are sharp!
Cheaper to get your teeth aligned !!
That is the nature of BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc Main dealers. Love looking for work.
Not sure you will get far with Mercedes UK - they usually distance themselves from the Dealer Principle.
Raise it with Mercedes directors/executive office. Normal customer service staff rarely care.
I’ve previously done this my Golf where the front wheel arches started to rust. It was only through the executive that matters started moving in the right direction.
Most of what is on that readout will be ignored. The toe in/out on the front wheels will be the one adjusted. If anyone disagrees ask them how they will adjust the other values.
That’s the print out from the wheel alignment
Not sure if anyone knowledgeable has anything to say on initial and final reading
So the girl from service dept said this morning that she knew the wheel alignment shouldn’t have been done before new tyres were fitted but she couldn’t get hold of my wife and as she hadn’t unticked the box in her reply that meant she had authorised it and it then gets done.
Interestingly she said she was having this conversation as the guy had the car on the machine at 4.30
Reading on machine at final reading is 17.06
So roughly 30 mins and it’s been charged through at 2 hours work
Had to pay it to get car out but will pursue it through Mercedes UK
Also asked why no warning light came on for pads and discs on rear if they required immediate replacement
According to girl only the front pads have sensors
Will check that one out.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Okey dokey
Interestingly I think all three are adjustable on my Merc, I assume eccentric bolts or shims
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