Question for the Army Guys

[Quality Man]

Hi TZ,

Long shot but someone might know. My son is currently undergoing his basic training at Pirbright, and has his pass off parade in mid January. Now, I would like to get him a little something for that day and considered a pocket knife, (already got him a G-Shock for when he started).

Does anyone know if he will be allowed a pocket knife in his personal possessions? Would he be able to use it in the field as it were?

Thanks,

Jonathan.


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[G10 for Men]

As a serving soldier, he will be allowed anything legal to own to be in his possession.

What trade is he going in as? When I was in (1992 - 2005), the army issued jackknives to the worthy, but, like issued watches, getting one was the real trick.

Depending on your budget, what about a multi tool? A bit more utility and the ability to have his regimental number and name on it (this may also deter the chance of it going walkies if it’s easy to identify).

He will be allowed to use it in the field, very handy for cutting green string, tape and foliage.

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[Quality Man]

Many thanks for the reply G10, really helpful and I like the idea of a multi tool. He is aiming to be a drone operator/pilot, we shall see if he gets his wish!


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[swanbourne]

Hi TZ,

Long shot but someone might know. My son is currently undergoing his basic training at Pirbright, and has his pass off parade in mid January. Now, I would like to get him a little something for that day and considered a pocket knife, (already got him a G-Shock for when he started).

Does anyone know if he will be allowed a pocket knife in his personal possessions? Would he be able to use it in the field as it were?

Thanks,

Jonathan.


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He should be issued with a jack knife, I was.

Eddie

[bwest76]

We where issued clasp knives but didnt use them that much,nor any knife for that matter.

No need for can openers with the disgusting rat pack pouches nowadays anyway.


Saying that if I was joining again knowing what I know now I would carry an Alox pioneer or cadet,we have enough to carry without adding more weight.

I wouldnt have carried a heavy MT though I may have kept it in any vehicle I was assigned to.


If I was you I would consider a Space pen you could have it engraved,dont get a 2 piece bullet he will loose the cap.

The best one for him would be the original its almost squaddie proof,you could of course get him the pioneer/cadet as well,great combo.


Watever you do dont buy him a tactical knife.




https://fisherspacepen.co.uk/product...s-retractable/



https://www.amazon.co.uk/Victorinox-...1&gad_source=1




https://www.amazon.co.uk/Victorinox-.../dp/B000MLU5OS

[Carlton-Browne]

I was never issued with a knife and always had a Victorinox - the green handled one that Survival Aids at Euston sold at the time - but a multi-tool would probably have been more welcome. Getting a name and number engraved would be a very good idea as things have a tendency to go walkies.

Edit: It was called the Mauser Officer's Knife.

[JasonM]

My Nephew completed his basic at Pirbright last month, we went to his passing out, great day, very proud, and coincidentally I gave him a Gerber multitool as a present, I had it engraved with his name and number and the passing out date, he was thrilled with it. He’s off to Chicksands in a few weeks for his unit training.

[BillyCasper]

The 2024 Victorinox Pioneer X (adds scissors) is an armyish greeny/brown colour. Or does that make it easier to lose?

https://www.victorinox.com/en-GB/Pro...4/p/0.8231.L24

The Pioneer is a nice model. There are variants: the Pioneer, the Pioneer X which adds scissors, the Farmer which adds a small wood saw and Farmer X which has the saw and scissors.

Don't most MTs have locking blades these days? The Leatherman Bond is UK carry.

[bwest76]

The 2024 Victorinox Pioneer X (adds scissors) is an armyish greeny/brown colour. Or does that make it easier to lose?

https://www.victorinox.com/en-GB/Pro...4/p/0.8231.L24

The Pioneer is a nice model. There are variants: the Pioneer, the Pioneer X which adds scissors, the Farmer which adds a small wood saw and Farmer X which has the saw and scissors.

Don't most MTs have locking blades these days? The Leatherman Bond is UK carry.

Yes and cant be carried in public even if in uniform,besides the Bond the bladeless Rebar is a choice.

Most soldiers arent going to need one, any trade will be issued tools so a SAK is the perfect choice IMHO.

[thieuster]

It's a long time ago for me. But a multitool would have been very useful! No drones back then, I am a little in the dark for that one But... for a drone operator, I would guess that a Mutli tool with a phillips head screwdriver is very useful.

[Quality Man]

Thanks for the responses guys, gut feel is a Victorinox, some of those can be engraved too.


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[M1011]

I think a Victorinox is a really good idea. Handy, inoffensive and something that can last through a career if cared for.

Just to throw another option out there, what about a torch? Do military folk get issued decent torches or are they crap? If the latter, you can get some superb torches for reasonable money, some of which are specifically geared towards 'tactical' use - e.g. tail switch, high candela, straight to high mode.

Don't most MTs have locking blades these days? The Leatherman Bond is UK carry.

Yes and cant be carried in public even if in uniform,besides the Bond the bladeless Rebar is a choice.

Both are debateable as UK legal EDC in my humble (and unprofessional) opinion. Not aware of anyone being put through the courts on one of them so my worries may be unfounded, but I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig for a court case either.

Law states the blade must be able to freely close at all times, but when you close the handle of the Bond with the blade deployed it simply cannot close, so to my mind that's the wrong side of the line technically. As for the bladeless Rebar, I can't understand how the awl doesn't fall foul of UK law given it locks, is a sharply pointed stabby instrument, and has a sharpened blade along the edge. Not saying anyone would necessarily pursue either, just my 2-cents on why I personally wouldn't risk it.

[bwest76]

I fully understand what you mean.


1,But the blade does not lock on a bond in the true meaning of lock.

A lock knife has a "mechanism" which locks the blade in position when fully extended, the blade cannot be closed without that mechanism being released.


2,An awl is not a knife even if you can imagine another use.


A pointed tool for marking surfaces or piercing small holes (as in leather or wood).




FYI

I have a Bond,knifeless Rebar,Supertool 300m,original PST and a original Wave which I have taken of both blades and added a door key and awl that does not lock (by chance).

The Supertool I would never carry except in a tool kit going to do a job.

[Beanie]

I would not get too hung up about him carrying a lock-blade multi-tool. If it's for use during his work, which it wil be, and even if carring to/from work, I would suggest that would be a reasonable excuse. If he keeps it with his kit and wears it whilst at work I wouldn't forsee any issues. Perhaps not leaving it in his pocket whilst out for a few beers though.
Perhaps asking his regement if they have any regs about them specifically?

[Quality Man]

Hi Beanie, yes maybe the route I go down before I purchase anything.


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[M1011]

I fully understand what you mean.


1,But the blade does not lock on a bond in the true meaning of lock.

A lock knife has a "mechanism" which locks the blade in position when fully extended, the blade cannot be closed without that mechanism being released.


2,An awl is not a knife even if you can imagine another use.


A pointed tool for marking surfaces or piercing small holes (as in leather or wood).




FYI

I have a Bond,knifeless Rebar,Supertool 300m,original PST and a original Wave which I have taken of both blades and added a door key and awl that does not lock (by chance).

The Supertool I would never carry except in a tool kit going to do a job.

Fair thoughts, but I don't agree. The definitions you've shared are not from legislation. That said, I may be wrong and am not a lawyer, but I have looked into it somewhat and it's not a risk I'd take personally.

1. R v Deegan [1998] case law; "McCowan LJ concluded that for a knife to be considered a folding pocket-knife, it must be readily and immediately foldable at all times, simply by the folding process."

It's not entirely clear but taken at face value, this would seem to preclude something like the Bond, as with the handle closed the blade doesn't meet the 'readily and immediately foldable at all times' interpretation. That said, the knife in question in the case was not remotely similar to the Bond. So it's far from clear and unless a court actually rules on it at some point, we can only hypothesise on this one really. But it is a topic of debate in the UK EDC world.

2. Objectively the same legislation does apply to the awl on the Rebar, regardless of what someone calls it. The relevant legislation is the Criminal Justice Act 1988, and specifically Section 139 (2) defines that; "this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife." The same legislation covers all sorts of obscure things (like ninja throwing stars!), not just what we might typically define as a knife.

Now of course in the case of the Rebar we certainly can't claim a folding pocketknife (it locks), so the relevant part defining what the section applies is "any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed". So it seems to me this one is much more clear cut than the previous example; as the awl is both a sharpened blade and sharply pointed, it locks so it isn't covered by the folding exemption, ergo it's not within the boundary of the exemption to UK knife law and shouldn't be carried in public (outside of the 'good reason' avenue of course). Now whether an officer and CPS would actually choose to pursue the matter is an entirely different question of course, I imagine they have more pressing matters.

Forgive us OP for going off-track, but it's an interesting topic!

[A.Pottinger]

I had a look at the Victorinox models currently available. My thoughts, in case helpful, are as follows: camper or huntsman are good options as they have key functions and are not overly large.

Furthermore, they have a ring to which a lanyard can be fitted. Although I am a fan of pioneer models, one does not appear to exist that has a saw and a corkscrew (or a ring or hole for a lanyard, too).

A saw is important, imho, as is a corkscrew (in addition to a good blade).

An additional purchase, given your son's interest in drones, that would fit with the corkscrew, are micro tools.Micro tools fit into the corkscrew piece and can be ordered separately.
This way, the penknife would cover considerable ground while also possessing key as well as desirable specialist features.

ATB, AP.

[Quality Man]

Thanks for your thoughts AP. Think I have settled on the Hiker, not overly thick and has some pretty useful tools, can also be engraved/etched so ticks that box too.


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[Saint-Just]

All that range can be etched/engraved so you can choose without worrying yourself about this aspect. I would agree with AP about the usefulness of the micro screwdriver and therefore the corkscrew, as well as the scissors which are possibly the second most useful accessory after the main blade.
If you’re near London you can go the the Oxford Street store and see for yourself. You can even build the one you want ( with the engraving)

[A.Pottinger]

A good choice, imho. Very practical and neat.
Engraving may be possible on the blade (old style); thought to mention it in case.
If you are not doing the engraving, of course make sure the person doing it knows how to!
(I say this from experience, as I had one Victorinox returned with some mangled engraving that put paid to a present to a military person!)

[Passenger]

Fair thoughts, but I don't agree. The definitions you've shared are not from legislation. That said, I may be wrong and am not a lawyer, but I have looked into it somewhat and it's not a risk I'd take personally.

1. R v Deegan [1998] case law; "McCowan LJ concluded that for a knife to be considered a folding pocket-knife, it must be readily and immediately foldable at all times, simply by the folding process."

It's not entirely clear but taken at face value, this would seem to preclude something like the Bond, as with the handle closed the blade doesn't meet the 'readily and immediately foldable at all times' interpretation. That said, the knife in question in the case was not remotely similar to the Bond. So it's far from clear and unless a court actually rules on it at some point, we can only hypothesise on this one really. But it is a topic of debate in the UK EDC world.

2. Objectively the same legislation does apply to the awl on the Rebar, regardless of what someone calls it. The relevant legislation is the Criminal Justice Act 1988, and specifically Section 139 (2) defines that; "this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife." The same legislation covers all sorts of obscure things (like ninja throwing stars!), not just what we might typically define as a knife.

Now of course in the case of the Rebar we certainly can't claim a folding pocketknife (it locks), so the relevant part defining what the section applies is "any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed". So it seems to me this one is much more clear cut than the previous example; as the awl is both a sharpened blade and sharply pointed, it locks so it isn't covered by the folding exemption, ergo it's not within the boundary of the exemption to UK knife law and shouldn't be carried in public (outside of the 'good reason' avenue of course). Now whether an officer and CPS would actually choose to pursue the matter is an entirely different question of course, I imagine they have more pressing matters.

Forgive us OP for going off-track, but it's an interesting topic!

Total segue but your mention of ninja throwing stars transported me back to Axe throwing in the US a coupla months ago...great fun, as well as tomahawk style axes we tried a Viking style 2 hander, impacts with an impressive Thwhunk and serious penetration and a style of mini Ninja axe stars, impressively rapid throw.
Considering building an axe throwing set up at the bottom of the garden.

[notenoughwrists]

I carried a Leatherman Supertool that my father bought as a passing off present, and it was always in its pouch on my stable belt unless I was on a more formal parade. I used it absolutely loads of times, and I still have it now 20 years on.

You perhaps wouldn’t take it down the pub in your civvies - but debating whether it is legal to carry or not when in uniform is nonsense.

Just get him whatever you want to.


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[bwest76]

But Constable my mate on the internet said it was OK.


Its not if you are in uniform or not with regards locking blades or slip joints over 3" cutting edge.

Its where you are and if you have a specific use at that time to be carrying it, so of camp in uniform with no specific job its a no.

I wouldnt be surprised if on some camps they frown on it as well.

So many people say well ive never been stopped, good luck when you are stopped.







I would buy him the Alox its far more robust and a good reason it was a issued tool.

Here are all the alox versions.

The Pioneer is UK friendly,you can have it

with plus saw

with plus scissors

with plus saw and scisors



https://www.victorinox.com/en-GB/Pro...tion_SAK-C051/



I joined 50 years ago this coming January at 16, I did some training at Pirbright myself (though I wasnt Guards) if you want a corkscrew and saw I have 3 GAKs in my collection.

There are several different makers my Aitor version is in the best condition of all 3,I will happily send it to you for him as he starts his career.

[FrontierGibberish]

In terms of what he'll get use from, multi-tool is ideal, as others have said. At home, around the house, in the field, deployed, in theater, he'll get lots of benefit from it (also his G-Shock, great gift!).
Equally, whether he's in uniform or not, if the blade he's carrying (whether knife or multi-tool) is illegal, the Old Bill won't care and he's in with a chance of getting nicked. The "work" argument won't help unless he's working, and if he's working (whatever his trade) he shouldn't be running in to cops.
So my advice is a multi-tool but nothing illegal. 20 years ago, which was my window, sensible cops could probably be expected to deliver the "you should know better" line. These days there are very few sensible cops.

[Quality Man]

Thanks for the continued ideas all, and many thanks for the kind offer bwest76 but I would like to buy him something new with personalised engraving. I’m certainly learning, the last knife I had was forty years ago for gutting rabbits!


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