Winter fuel payment

[Passenger]

I think you misunderstood my point. I understand the principle behind the Ponzi scheme.
I get that the pension scheme in the U.K. can be said to be based on that principle because people who have qualified by paying NI long enough are paid out from funds currently being paid in.

But other benefits are also being paid from funds currently being paid in. So they rely on people at the bottom of the pyramid paying in. So surely they are Ponzi schemes as well, but without the beneficiaries having to pay in!

It always feels to me that people referring to the pension as a Ponzi scheme are looking down their noses at it somewhat.
They wouldn’t dream of criticising people drawing benefits but feel ok saying ‘oh the state pension is just a Ponzi scheme you know, because it’s not your money it’s everyone else’s’ !

Well I paid NI and tax for 42 years, which helped to pay for all those drawing out benefits during that time, so Ponzi scheme or not I don’t feel guilty about having a state pension.

So when people say ‘but your state pension is just a Ponzi scheme you know’ I really couldn’t care less.

I don't get the sense anyone's looking down on it, or criticising it/ them come to that, heck most all who work pay tax/ NI don't they..it's more to do with correcting the inaccurate notion many seem to have that there's this pot of their contributions from which their pension comes...More broadly, dunno why should you or anyone care about what others say/ think, guilt what even is that...good on you I say.

[Passenger]

Just briefly paid in NI for 49 yrs according DWP along with class 4 and tax as i was born before 1951 i get the old rate pension which is a whopping £9100.00 pa as i have a couple private pensions i do not qualify for any form of benefit.I look at people i know who have never saved and are on all sorts of benefits and in all honesty think who is the mug?

Enjoy the quiet dignity/ satisfaction of knowing you've always paid your own way, aren't on a free ride, you have personal agency that the dole wallahs don't. Maybe one way to look at it.

I/We pay tax to 3 national authorities, chip into 3 Community Chests in a sense...UK, Spain, USA...noblesse oblige and all that.

[oldoakknives]

I don't get the sense anyone's looking down on it, or criticising it/ them come to that..it's more to do with correcting the inaccurate notion many seem to have that there's this pot of their contributions from which their pension comes...More broadly, dunno why should you or anyone care about what others say/ think...good on you I say.

People probably get that notion from the fact that you need a minimum of 10 years NI contributions to qualify for a U.K. state pension. Not sure how that will affect people who have never worked in the U.K. in years to come.
It’s not a question of caring what others think, it’s about a general attitude towards pensioners, which I think is reflected in the taking away of the fuel allowance and many agreeing with it.

[Passenger]

People probably get that notion from the fact that you need a minimum of 10 years NI contributions to qualify for a U.K. state pension. Not sure how that will affect people who have never worked in the U.K. in years to come.
It’s not a question of caring what others think, it’s about a general attitude towards pensioners, which I think is reflected in the taking away of the fuel allowance and many agreeing with it.

Reckon I probably have perhaps as many as 15, 16 yrs of NIC's, might be in for a pleasant surprise one day. Won't hold my breath obvs, not for nearly decade and a half mind. Anything, virtually an unexpected, really unplanned for bonus at that point. Pending goal posts moving again, changes to the T and C's, ponzi collapse. Kidding, the last one. Still always wise imo, never assume anything regards longevity or Govt' promises.

Yeah I think it's not a nice trait to pick on the old folks generally speaking..We''ll all likely get there one day, getting old's no picnic in/ of itself even with modern medicine, and in the time/ place I was brought up we'd show respect/manners to our elders, or feel the consequences...mind you back then the elders mostly didn't sport as many tats, piercings as some seem to nowadays! Also worth mentioning, as SJ's post notes, the demographics, the old shuffled off around 70 years on average and we had bigger families, more children being born into the scheme.

Times are always changin'.

[David_D]

Why do people refer to the state pension as a 'Ponzi scheme'?

It was deliberately set up that way. Nye Bevan said that “The great secret about the National Insurance fund is that there ain’t no fund.”

[Robxxx7]

My Mum has a private pension of £191 per month on top of her state pension. For that reason she is excluded from winter fuel payment.

£13k per year income and she lives by herself. She is deemed too wealthy for the winter fuel payment.

Very similar situation to my 92 year old mother ....

[Passenger]

Very similar situation to my 92 year old mother ....

Good age that, hopefully she's doing well, enjoying life.

[Robxxx7]

Good age that, hopefully she's doing well, enjoying life.

She's doing brilliant thanks ... would put a 30 year old to shame

[sprite1275]

I was working at a 90 odd women's house the other day. Lived in a 1st floor flat. She had a stair lift but didn't use it. She would regularly walk down them to put things in the bin. Every time I said I'll take that she wouldn't have it and said no it's my exercise.
My heart was in my mouth every time though.

[draftsmann]

Partly off topic, and I don’t think this observation is “political” per se- but I believe the real ponzi bomb waiting to detonate in the coming years will be the large, public sector final salary pension schemes. There lies a future bail-out of truly epic proportions.

[Passenger]

She's doing brilliant thanks ... would put a 30 year old to shame

Outstanding, cherished I'm sure.

[Halitosis]

Partly off topic, and I don’t think this observation is “political” per se- but I believe the real ponzi bomb waiting to detonate in the coming years will be the large, public sector final salary pension schemes. There lies a future bail-out of truly epic proportions.

Entirely agree

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Partly off topic, and I don’t think this observation is “political” per se- but I believe the real ponzi bomb waiting to detonate in the coming years will be the large, public sector final salary pension schemes. There lies a future bail-out of truly epic proportions.

Most have now moved over to career average schemes?

Edit:- since 2013?

[Hood]

Partly off topic, and I don’t think this observation is “political” per se- but I believe the real ponzi bomb waiting to detonate in the coming years will be the large, public sector final salary pension schemes. There lies a future bail-out of truly epic proportions.

Yip and I'd expect people on them(including myself) may not get the state pension eventually.

[thenikjones]

Most have now moved over to career average schemes?

Edit:- since 2013?

Yes, and fully funded by the State so why would it need a bail-out?

On an unrelated point, if “free for all over 60 “presriptions are taken away then get a pre-pay for about £110 a year - cheaper than a TV licence but I’m sure many will moan.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Yes, and fully funded by the State so why would it need a bail-out?

On an unrelated point, if “free for all over 60 “presriptions are taken away then get a pre-pay for about £110 a year - cheaper than a TV licence but I’m sure many will moan.

Members pay into them as well, often a decent percentage.

OP should never have posted this in the G&D because here we go again, people cannot help themselves, no restraint and only eager to pi$$ and moan.

[oldoakknives]

Yes, and fully funded by the State so why would it need a bail-out?

On an unrelated point, if “free for all over 60 “presriptions are taken away then get a pre-pay for about £110 a year - cheaper than a TV licence but I’m sure many will moan.

Those pensioners want the world, TV and prescriptions!

[chrisjones3]

OP should never have posted this in the G&D because here we go again, people cannot help themselves, no restraint and only eager to pi$$ and moan.

Yeah I am starting to agree with you. However I wouldn’t have posted this in the bear pit as it goes feral and abusive from the get go. Kind of thought that as this topic wasn’t directly political - more societal - then it could be posted here for a reasonable conversation.


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[Bonzodog]

My dad is ninty nine,and just a few pounds above what’s allowed.He will miss the winter fuel payment.

[Scrubnut]

We are living in a socialist republic now. Anything you have, you need to give to the government so that they can fill the public sector begging bowls.

[redmonaco]

Yeah I am starting to agree with you. However I wouldn’t have posted this in the bear pit as it goes feral and abusive from the get go. Kind of thought that as this topic wasn’t directly political - more societal - then it could be posted here for a reasonable conversation.


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"Reasonable conversation" doesn't exist in Bearpit. I'm sure that Eddie never meant the Bearpit to be a sewage pit of swearing and name calling when he started it. This forum used to be a friendly place. I see society reflected here now...

This topic isn't so much political as societal imo

[Passenger]

We are living in a socialist republic now. Anything you have, you need to give to the government so that they can fill the public sector begging bowls.

Hey now what about the private sector begging bowls, the hundreds of millions, maybe billions chucked at car makers, or Tata for example to try and ensure they won´t take their balls home, or elsewhere! See also Drax.

I´ve mused that we might, (many developed economies) perhaps share something else with the old socialist republics...´´they pretend to pay us, so we pretend to work´´ a workers aphorism which helped explain their productivity- quality problems.

[redmonaco]

People probably get that notion from the fact that you need a minimum of 10 years NI contributions to qualify for a U.K. state pension. Not sure how that will affect people who have never worked in the U.K. in years to come.
It’s not a question of caring what others think, it’s about a general attitude towards pensioners, which I think is reflected in the taking away of the fuel allowance and many agreeing with it.

They will get "Benefits" instead, that will more likely (as currently) be worth more than the state pension for many!!

[Passenger]

"Reasonable conversation" doesn't exist in Bearpit. I'm sure that Eddie never meant the Bearpit to be a sewage pit of swearing and name calling when he started it. This forum used to be a friendly place. I see society reflected here now...

This topic isn't so much political as societal imo

I think reasonable convo could exist in the BP, just there´s a lot of anger, belligerence, stress about nowadays for some, flashpoints and cussin´ before you know it.

[robert75]

People probably get that notion from the fact that you need a minimum of 10 years NI contributions to qualify for a U.K. state pension. Not sure how that will affect people who have never worked in the U.K. in years to come.
It’s not a question of caring what others think, it’s about a general attitude towards pensioners, which I think is reflected in the taking away of the fuel allowance and many agreeing with it.

If you have not worked in the UK or not done the min 30 years you wont qualify for the full pension. I worked abroad/travelled for a number of years when I was young so had to make up for the years missed.

As for attitude towards pensioners, we all have parents/grandparents so it doesnt really bother me that they should live comfortably.

[Passenger]

If you have not worked in the UK or not done the min 30 years you wont qualify for the full pension. I worked abroad/travelled for a number of years when I was young so had to make up for the years missed.

As for attitude towards pensioners, we all have parents/grandparents so it doesnt really bother me that they should live comfortably.

I could be wrong but isn´t it 35 years to qualify for the full ún.

[number2]

We are living in a socialist republic now. Anything you have, you need to give to the government so that they can fill the public sector begging bowls.

[draftsmann]

Most have now moved over to career average schemes?

Edit:- since 2013?

Yes, and fully funded by the State so why would it need a bail-out?

Members pay into them as well, often a decent percentage.

Yes I get all this and perhaps “bail out” was perhaps the wrong term to use, nevertheless huge unfunded defined benefits schemes still seem to me to be a massively expensive and unavoidable future time bomb.

[noTAGlove]

We are living in a socialist republic now. Anything you have, you need to give to the government so that they can fill the public sector begging bowls.

Bosh.

I am a mere ameteur when it comes to the odd subtle but riskee political comment in G&D.

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[robert75]

I could be wrong but isn´t it 35 years to qualify for the full ún.

Sorry, you may well be right. Its all online now so you can check how much you have paid in and if you need to make up a year or two. In spite of having to make up a bit I should still have worked the full number to qualify for a full pension but its a while off for me so I have not gone into too much detail. I only mentioned my position as someone asked about people who had been abroad and not paid in what would happen.

Anyway, regarding winter fuel, I dont have any complaints about what pensioners should get there is a bit too much of "He/she gets more than me" these days. We are talking about our parents and grandparents there should be some point in our lives when we can sit back and enjoy what we have worked for.

[Passenger]

Sorry, you may well be right. Its all online now so you can check how much you have paid in and if you need to make up a year or two. In spite of having to make up a bit I should still have worked the full number to qualify for a full pension but its a while off for me so I have not gone into too much detail. I only mentioned my position as someone asked about people who had been abroad and not paid in what would happen.

Anyway, regarding winter fuel, I dont have any complaints about what pensioners should get there is a bit too much of "He/she gets more than me" these days. We are talking about our parents and grandparents there should be some point in our lives when we can sit back and enjoy what we have worked for.

Thanks. You raised a good point, forewarned is to be forearmed.

Couldn't agree more with your final point.

[oldoakknives]

Bosh.

I am a mere ameteur when it comes to the odd subtle but riskee political comment in G&D.

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[sprite1275]

Sorry, you may well be right. Its all online now so you can check how much you have paid in and if you need to make up a year or two. In spite of having to make up a bit I should still have worked the full number to qualify for a full pension but its a while off for me so I have not gone into too much detail. I only mentioned my position as someone asked about people who had been abroad and not paid in what would happen.

Anyway, regarding winter fuel, I dont have any complaints about what pensioners should get there is a bit too much of "He/she gets more than me" these days. We are talking about our parents and grandparents there should be some point in our lives when we can sit back and enjoy what we have worked for.

Well if you've worked you probably won't qualify. Thanks for your service though and all that....

[PhilipK]

We are talking about our parents and grandparents

I suspect that you may have somewhat underestimated the average age of the TZ-UK demographic!

[ryanb741]

This from before when the Tories were in power.

[Mr Curta]

Whether the BP or Hyde Park Corner work as healthy discussion subforums or not, to post political content in the G&D seems pretty disrespectful to Eddie who has clearly expressed his wishes and set up the place in a thoughtful way to achieve them. A few years ago this thread would have been moved in no time, advantage really shouldn't be taken of him not having the inclination or energy to police the forum in the way that he used to.

Personally I think that the BP/HPC work pretty well as places to let off steam, and sensible discussions can be had if you simply put the noise makers on ignore.

[oldoakknives]

This from before when the Tories were in power.

Awkward.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

For those that keep posting political stuff in the G&D, it is disrespectful to Eddie, please stop it and think for a few seconds - be mindful that we have a few buffoons who will turn anything on it’s head to introduce politics into the thread - Tapacrap does not help in this respect.


The BP has always had its controversy but my view is ‘strong views’ cuts both ways. In recent years we have had a couple of bellends banned from there - takes some doing but hey-ho. For me if somebody is so dumb to get hoofed off then there is little hope for them!

[Mr Curta]

Case very much rested

[Kingstepper]

Why does it even exist?

Ensure pensioners (and others) have a liveable income and let them budget accordingly.

[oldoakknives]

Why does it even exist?

Ensure pensioners (and others) have a liveable income and let them budget accordingly.

It existed because the government didn’t.

[blackal]

It’s pretty much - a subsidy for the energy companies.

“Charge what you want, and we’ll soften the blow for the less well-off- adding it to the taxes of everyone.”

[cbh]

My understanding is that the payment was made as a lump sum added to your pension so a winter bonus payment that could actually be spent wherever you wanted, is that correct?

[Kingstepper]

It’s pretty much - a subsidy for the energy companies.

“Charge what you want, and we’ll soften the blow for the less well-off- adding it to the taxes of everyone.”

The suppliers aren’t greatly profitable.

https://electricityinfo.org/news/octopus-41/

[mart broad]

My understanding is that the payment was made as a lump sum added to your pension so a winter bonus payment that could actually be spent wherever you wanted, is that correct?

Yes

[cbh]

Yes

Interesting, I have to wonder just how much was actually spent on heating, as a scheme it looks to have been a very blunt instrument!

[blackal]

Interesting, I have to wonder just how much was actually spent on heating, as a scheme it looks to have been a very blunt instrument!

I do believe with soaring energy costs - it will have alleviated some of the “heating or eating” choices for a lot of people/families.

For others - it takes the sting out of the winter quarter bills.

[Ruggertech]

Interesting, I have to wonder just how much was actually spent on heating, as a scheme it looks to have been a very blunt instrument!

For those that needed it, all of it.

[oldoakknives]

Interesting, I have to wonder just how much was actually spent on heating, as a scheme it looks to have been a very blunt instrument!

Do you ever wonder how much child benefit is actually spent on the children?

[blackal]

Do you ever wonder how much child benefit is actually spent on the children?

Or Road Fund License ………… on roads.