closing tag is in template navbar
timefactors watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Results 1 to 50 of 50

Thread: Can I get what I want simply by being patient?

  1. #1

    Can I get what I want simply by being patient?

    Hi All, looking for some advice please. Iíve always coveted a brand new Rolex Submariner Date. Iíll turn 50 in the next 4 years, and it would be nice to have it by then, although thatís not a must. I do like other Rolexes, but am not interested in buying them over a Sub, especially not to build up some form of history with an AD. Is it simply naive of me to think that I can put my name down somewhere and wait it out? Or should I accept the need for another strategy? If I can just wait it out, any suggestions of where to put my name down? Thank you!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. #2
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    SE England
    Posts
    27,275
    If you really need/covet a Sub just buy a grey market or a second hand one then you'll get it immediately.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    If you really need/covet a Sub just buy a grey market or a second hand one then you'll get it immediately.
    Thanks, but Iíd like to buy brand new normal retail on this occasion. Should say too that itís just the std steel version I want.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Just go to your nearest AD and have a chat with them. Iím sure you could get a standard sub within a couple of years.

  5. #5
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    20,481
    Blog Entries
    1
    If you do decide to go the Rolex AD route go to your nearest one and explain that you would like to get one on or before your birthday. Tell them that you arenít registering an interest at any other dealers just them and you live nearest to them.
    Itís worth a try and if theyíre anything like my nearest AD theyíll be OK. They just donít appreciate skanks wanting something to flip and make a few bob.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  6. #6
    Journeyman Ikincooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Lancaster
    Posts
    160
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    If you do decide to go the Rolex AD route go to your nearest one and explain that you would like to get one on or before your birthday. Tell them that you arenít registering an interest at any other dealers just them and you live nearest to them.
    Itís worth a try and if theyíre anything like my nearest AD theyíll be OK. They just donít appreciate skanks wanting something to flip and make a few bob.
    Perfect advice. OP follow the above and as others have said if things donít work out you can always grab one grey and at the drop of a hat.

    ADís need new customers and planning ahead to your 50th is as genuine as it gets


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Unknown
    Posts
    5,957
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    If you do decide to go the Rolex AD route go to your nearest one and explain that you would like to get one on or before your birthday. Tell them that you aren’t registering an interest at any other dealers just them and you live nearest to them.
    It’s worth a try and if they’re anything like my nearest AD they’ll be OK. They just don’t appreciate skanks wanting something to flip and make a few bob.
    I tried that, after 3-4 years I gave up.

    Only hope is a recession…

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    I tried that, after 3-4 years I gave up.

    Only hope is a recessionÖ
    I think it's more realistic now with current RRP at £9,000. Grey dealers won't be paying much above RRP (if anything) now.

  9. #9
    Craftsman jimmbob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Shropshire, UK
    Posts
    712
    Very unlikely. Unless youíre ďbuilding a relationshipĒ they arenít interested at the moment, thatís just the way the game is played nowadays. Of course you might get lucky, but probably not. Save the extra £1k, and your dignity, and buy grey.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmbob View Post
    Very unlikely. Unless youíre ďbuilding a relationshipĒ they arenít interested at the moment, thatís just the way the game is played nowadays. Of course you might get lucky, but probably not. Save the extra £1k, and your dignity, and buy grey.
    Why would they be interested in building a relationship, they just want to sell stuff?

  11. #11
    Journeyman Ikincooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Lancaster
    Posts
    160
    Go talk to some of your local ADís OP and they should be able to advise you if your request is achievable or not.

    Much more so that we can here anyway


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  12. #12
    Master beechcustom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Right here
    Posts
    5,204
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikincooper View Post
    Go talk to some of your local ADís OP and they should be able to advise you if your request is achievable or not.

    Much more so that we can here anyway


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Just to add you might get more joy from a smaller family owned AD than the likes of chains such as Goldsmiths. I'd approach the smaller AD first. They generally LOVE the 'marking a significant birthday' narrative so I think you might be ok if you are prepared to wait.

    Last resort is grey but that's not terrible news as I think you'll not pay too much over list now (and possibly less in a year or so!).

  13. #13
    Craftsman jimmbob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Shropshire, UK
    Posts
    712
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Why would they be interested in building a relationship, they just want to sell stuff?
    Quite.

    And with more customers than watches the chance of getting an in demand piece as a first time buyer is slim. Not impossible of course, but letís not pretend that they donít pick and choose who gets the good stuff, unless the last 6 years have been a shared fever dream.

  14. #14
    Thanks All, some good food for thought!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    North
    Posts
    19,213
    Blog Entries
    2
    As above register with a smaller and as local as possible AD.
    You've got 4 years, so if no joy at the end of that - reassess grey.

  16. #16
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    728
    Why go through all the nonsense with an AD for a small saving over the grey market ,life is too short for bs

    Sent from my Pixel 6 using TZ-UK mobile app

  17. #17
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    SE England
    Posts
    27,275
    Quote Originally Posted by misterzero View Post
    Why go through all the nonsense with an AD for a small saving over the grey market ,life is too short for bs

    Sent from my Pixel 6 using TZ-UK mobile app
    My POV too.

    See post #2
    Cheers,
    Neil.

  18. #18
    Journeyman jamiej's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Surrey, United Kingdom
    Posts
    191
    I think it is totally AD specific.

    Not all ADs are money grabbing monsters. As has been said in the posts above, the best advice is to speak to an AD. You'll get a good gauge once you've spoken to them.

    An AD may simply WANT to make your 50th special, and is able to do so. WHY? because being nice makes you feel nice.

    I've a great relationship with my AD. I've not got a huge spend history. I'm just an honest and likeable person who the AD likes dealing with.

    Some play games, some are just horrid, but you may get lucky. Wear an interesting watch, try to show the AD what the purchase would mean to you etc etc. it'll be a welcome relief from the "oi geeza, I wanna buy a batman"

    Sent from my CPH2415 using Tapatalk

  19. #19
    Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Utrecht, Nederland
    Posts
    2,474
    Prices dealer / grey donít differ that much anymore. Really should ignore dealer and their relationship nonsense.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Time Cat View Post
    Prices dealer / grey donít differ that much anymore. Really should ignore dealer and their relationship nonsense.
    The cheapest unworn 2024 examples are about £11k on chrono24. £2k over rrp seems a lot to me.

  21. #21
    Master beechcustom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Right here
    Posts
    5,204
    Quote Originally Posted by Time Cat View Post
    Prices dealer / grey donít differ that much anymore. Really should ignore dealer and their relationship nonsense.
    Just playing devil's advocate, minty fresh brand new AD supplied watch is the only time you can come close to being certain that it's unpolished (and 100% genuine but I accept greys can authenticate watches).

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    If you do decide to go the Rolex AD route go to your nearest one and explain that you would like to get one on or before your birthday. Tell them that you arenít registering an interest at any other dealers just them and you live nearest to them.
    Itís worth a try and if theyíre anything like my nearest AD theyíll be OK. They just donít appreciate skanks wanting something to flip and make a few bob.
    Depends on the AD and the watch, a sub should be ok. I put my name down for a BLNR maybe 6 years ago, in run up to my 40th, I am now 42 and still nothing. I did go in a few times over the years to see what was happening, then gave up and got a Zenith.

  23. #23
    Grand Master TaketheCannoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    19,683
    There you go, a 2024 Sub date available today. Crazy price but letís be realistic, youíre highly unlikely to get one from an AD although being prepared to wait four years might help. You could be wearing this one by the weekend, enjoy it for four years and have it paid off by then. We never know whatís around the corner for us, imagine checking out while waiting for a brand to deem you worthy of owning a bloody watch.

    https://www.watchfinder.co.uk/Rolex/...26/item/303032

  24. #24
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Wirral - North West England
    Posts
    15,708
    Asking will do you no harm, but grey prices have come down a lot over the last year or two. Who knows where the market will be in 4 years. We already have SD43s selling below list price and Iím sure other models will follow. I donít think you will have any issues finding one if you are flexible.

  25. #25
    Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    M62 corridor
    Posts
    4,795
    If I didn't lose count, there are 18 (eighteen) 2024 126610LNs listed on eBay (UK). Cheapest BIN appears to be £10,500.

    Good to see Rolex are on top of the grey market.

  26. #26
    Master Halitosis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    West Lothian
    Posts
    2,088
    With Rolex RRP rises in the intervening 4 years, you may well end up paying more to an AD that you could pay today to a grey dealer

  27. #27
    Grand Master TaketheCannoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    19,683
    In addition to my post above, thereís also this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Halitosis View Post
    With Rolex RRP rises in the intervening 4 years, you may well end up paying more to an AD that you could pay today to a grey dealer

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by misterzero View Post
    Why go through all the nonsense with an AD to buy a Rolex ,life is too short for that BS, buy something else.

    Sent from my Pixel 6 using TZ-UK mobile app
    There, fixed that for you.

  29. #29
    Master davidj54's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,471
    Quote Originally Posted by Halitosis View Post
    With Rolex RRP rises in the intervening 4 years, you may well end up paying more to an AD that you could pay today to a grey dealer
    This is a really good point. If they keep putting the prices up 4% every year then your £9k Sub now will be nearly £10.5k in four years time, probably not far off what you could get one for via Grey now.

    With the waiting game they kind of make you pay interest by stealth!

    Unless a minty box fresh model from the AD is critical, Iíd start hunting for a good grey model now and just live in the moment - who knows where any of us will be in four years time.

  30. #30
    Master ~dadam02~'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    N/A
    Posts
    3,806
    Blog Entries
    14
    Received an email from WOS this week reminding me I'm still on their register of interest, and bringing me up to date on all their latest rules for not buying a watch. It's been so long I've completely forgotten what I put my name down for, not that I'll find out. Not sure why they bother.

  31. #31
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    20,481
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by NikGixer750 View Post
    Depends on the AD and the watch, a sub should be ok. I put my name down for a BLNR maybe 6 years ago, in run up to my 40th, I am now 42 and still nothing. I did go in a few times over the years to see what was happening, then gave up and got a Zenith.
    I too put my name down with my local AD for a BLNR and it took around 4 years to be offered one.
    I will never buy grey for more than retail.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  32. #32
    Grand Master TaketheCannoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    19,683
    Good on ya! Six years for a watch. Why, why, why would anyone do that?

    I bet the Zenith is great too.

    I wish people would do what you did and buy other brands. The more people are prepared to pull their pants down for Rolex the more theyíll make you do it. Crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by NikGixer750 View Post
    Depends on the AD and the watch, a sub should be ok. I put my name down for a BLNR maybe 6 years ago, in run up to my 40th, I am now 42 and still nothing. I did go in a few times over the years to see what was happening, then gave up and got a Zenith.

  33. #33
    The assumption seems to be that the recent history of AD games and waiting lists is going to continue forever more. Iím not so sure. The last time I spoke to an AD a few weeks ago she had spent the morning contacting people on the list for, from memory, a BLRO that had come in. Six people passed before she got a bite. If that is a general reflection of things then the lists wonít be around forever and weíll be back to 2016 when I walked into an AD and tried a Hulk and both white and black Daytonas from the window before deciding on the Hulk. If only Iíd known then that those Daytonas were about to be discontinued

  34. #34
    Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    M62 corridor
    Posts
    4,795
    Quote Originally Posted by Danstone View Post
    The assumption seems to be that the recent history of AD games and waiting lists is going to continue forever more. Iím not so sure. The last time I spoke to an AD a few weeks ago she had spent the morning contacting people on the list for, from memory, a BLRO that had come in. Six people passed before she got a bite. If that is a general reflection of things then the lists wonít be around forever and weíll be back to 2016 when I walked into an AD and tried a Hulk and both white and black Daytonas from the window before deciding on the Hulk. If only Iíd known then that those Daytonas were about to be discontinued
    Daytonas were selling at significant (not by todayís standards, obv.) premiums then so good for you for not being a profiteer.

    Watches of Switzerland results were out today. They claim the UK market has stabilised. Then again the news today reporting the number of people who will have horrendous increases in their mortgages when their fixed rates expire.

  35. #35
    Master jukeboxs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    5,525
    Quote Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
    Good on ya! Six years for a watch. Why, why, why would anyone do that?
    ...
    I wish people would do what you did and buy other brands. The more people are prepared to pull their pants down for Rolex the more they’ll make you do it. Crazy.

    I've been on the WL for a certain Patek for 6 years, it is a tad frustrating - and actually means I'm less likely to buy, due to the c£8k increase in RRP. But, I wouldn't criticise anyone for having a different choice to me. To be fair, you're probably near the other end of the watch patience / turnover spectrum. I buy Rolex because I like them, I also own other models. For some, they don't want another model, they don't want to buy grey, and they don't mind the wait. Everyone is different, and thank goodness for that.

  36. #36
    Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Bury, UK
    Posts
    2,396
    Miltonaires has plenty on there and just sold an unworn one under 10.5k. Some lovely examples on there available right now. Crazy to be going to a dealer pleading to give them your money

  37. #37
    Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    8,663
    Blog Entries
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    I think it's more realistic now with current RRP at £9,000. Grey dealers won't be paying much above RRP (if anything) now.
    Bloody what?!

    £9K for a SS Sub?

    Iíve been Ďout of the gameí for maybe four years. Things move fast!

  38. #38
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    74
    I'm really surprised by some of the comments on this thread. I'd have thought pretty much anyone with zero history could walk into any AD anywhere and pick up a sub at retail within two years, possibly even a year. The situation now with waitlists for watches like Rolex just isn't what it was a few years ago. My local AD, for what it's worth, is getting watches in fairly regularly, admittedly mostly PM pieces, but a few steel ones too. I've known them for just three years and in that time I've got a white gold Daytona on oyster flex, a white gold yacht master with the Falconeye dial, a rose gold CHNR for my wife, a steel BLRO on jubilee, a green bezel sub, a black bezel sub and a 36mm DJ. I've also been offered another YM on oyster flex with a black dial, a rose gold YM on oyster flex and a platinum day date. Last week they had four or five watches in the window that were for sale, not exhibition pieces including a sky dweller, an OP and a couple of bi-metal DJ's. If you can't get a sub in four years then you're doing something really wrong. Either that or I've been incredibly lucky.

  39. #39
    Master Halitosis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    West Lothian
    Posts
    2,088
    Quote Originally Posted by djman View Post
    I'm really surprised by some of the comments on this thread. I'd have thought pretty much anyone with zero history could walk into any AD anywhere and pick up a sub at retail within two years, possibly even a year. The situation now with waitlists for watches like Rolex just isn't what it was a few years ago. My local AD, for what it's worth, is getting watches in fairly regularly, admittedly mostly PM pieces, but a few steel ones too. I've known them for just three years and in that time I've got a white gold Daytona on oyster flex, a white gold yacht master with the Falconeye dial, a rose gold CHNR for my wife, a steel BLRO on jubilee, a green bezel sub, a black bezel sub and a 36mm DJ. I've also been offered another YM on oyster flex with a black dial, a rose gold YM on oyster flex and a platinum day date. Last week they had four or five watches in the window that were for sale, not exhibition pieces including a sky dweller, an OP and a couple of bi-metal DJ's. If you can't get a sub in four years then you're doing something really wrong. Either that or I've been incredibly lucky.
    Perhaps you could do the OP a favour? :wink:

  40. #40
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by Halitosis View Post
    Perhaps you could do the OP a favour? :wink:
    Ha! But to the OP, I really think you can get what you want significantly more quickly than you think. A couple of others on here have given exactly the right advice - go to your local AD, tell them you live nearby, explain that you've not approached any other AD's, just them, and tell them which watch you'd like and why. Visit that AD regularly over a period of t time and talk to the guys there about watches, show interest. I regularly pop into my local AD because I've got to know the people there quite well and we all love talking about watches. You'll soon start to build a good relationship that's fun and you will get your watch. And probably a few others!

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by djman View Post
    Ha! But to the OP, I really think you can get what you want significantly more quickly than you think. A couple of others on here have given exactly the right advice - go to your local AD, tell them you live nearby, explain that you've not approached any other AD's, just them, and tell them which watch you'd like and why. Visit that AD regularly over a period of t time and talk to the guys there about watches, show interest. I regularly pop into my local AD because I've got to know the people there quite well and we all love talking about watches. You'll soon start to build a good relationship that's fun and you will get your watch. And probably a few others!
    With all due respect youíve also spent a shed load of money on multiple watches in a short time frame which probably helps?!

  42. #42
    Master beechcustom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Right here
    Posts
    5,204
    Quote Originally Posted by RobDad View Post
    With all due respect youíve also spent a shed load of money on multiple watches in a short time frame which probably helps?!
    Yeah this. You didn't just rock up asking for a steel sub with no prior spend. That said I do think it might be easier now than some are suggesting, especially if OP approaches local family owned AD.

  43. #43
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Here & There
    Posts
    906
    Iíd get on a list and hope your luck comes in over the next four years. If not, given that youíve wanted it for so long and itís likely a one-off, I would pay the extra few quid grey. Whats an extra £1,500 over the next couple of decades.

  44. #44
    Craftsman jimmbob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Shropshire, UK
    Posts
    712
    So the answer is simple. You find a Mom & Pop AD that likes your face, you stick your name down and wait 4 years with fingers crossed.

    Or, you go in, spend multiple tens of thousands on stuff you don't want, along with popping in every 3 months to chat watches. Perhaps take them some flowers, or a Ferrari track day experience. Promise you'll never cheat on them with Goldsmiths, or Watchfinder, and maybe they'll "find one in the back" if you're lucky, and they've had enough of selling pink dialled Datejusts and the odd Hublot to you every 5 months.

    Or, go grey, get the watch you want earlier and probably for less than it'll cost you in 4 years.

    If you go grey but still want the AD experience, just get your significant other to wear a cheap suit and hand you a glass of Lambrini, while she puts the watch on a dinner tray and slides it across the table to you. For true authenticity; when resizing the bracelet be sure to mash up the screws a little bit and scratch 2 lugs.
    Last edited by jimmbob; 28th June 2024 at 16:43.

  45. #45
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    55įN
    Posts
    16,147
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave O'Sullivan View Post
    Bloody what?! £9K for a SS Sub? Iíve been Ďout of the gameí for maybe four years. Things move fast!
    You think that's bad, a pre-owned common-as-muck 16610 was commanding £10K at the height of the kung flu hysteria. It's taking a while for the air to escape the balloon, but it's been popped, that's for sure.

  46. #46
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by beechcustom View Post
    Yeah this. You didn't just rock up asking for a steel sub with no prior spend. That said I do think it might be easier now than some are suggesting, especially if OP approaches local family owned AD.
    So I bought a blue steel yachtmaster first (didnít include that in my first post), then I bought a Starbucks sub, then a steel DJ with a blue dial. Then I bought some PM pieces. I find some of the responses on here a bit silly, maybe theyíre meant to be. Who knows. Not very helpful though are they? I stick to my original advice and that of some of the other posters on this thread.

  47. #47
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by RobDad View Post
    With all due respect youíve also spent a shed load of money on multiple watches in a short time frame which probably helps?!
    And yes this probably does help a relationship, Iím not going to deny it! Iíve still been waiting for a year for a titanium YM and two years for a steel Daytona so itís not all roses.

  48. #48
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    SE England
    Posts
    27,275
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmbob View Post
    So the answer is simple. You find a Mom & Pop AD that likes your face, you stick your name down and wait 4 years with fingers crossed.

    Or, you go in, spend multiple tens of thousands on stuff you don't want, along with popping in every 3 months to chat watches. Perhaps take them some flowers, or a Ferrari track day experience. Promise you'll never cheat on them with Goldsmiths, or Watchfinder, and maybe they'll "find one in the back" if you're lucky, and they've had enough of selling pink dialled Datejusts and the odd Hublot to you every 5 months.

    Or, go grey, get the watch you want earlier and probably for less than it'll cost you in 4 years.

    If you grey but still want the AD experience, just get your significant other to wear a cheap suit and hand you a glass of Lambrini, while she puts the watch on a dinner tray and slides it across the table to you. For true authenticity; when resizing the bracelet be sure to mash up the screws a little bit and scratch 2 lugs.
    That's quality!
    Cheers,
    Neil.

  49. #49
    Journeyman jamiej's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Surrey, United Kingdom
    Posts
    191
    The resize comment and scratched lug happened to me on my wife's date just.

    Offending AD was prompt to order a new bracelet and hand deliver a bunch of flowers as an apology.

    Needless to say, we changed AD after this. Turns out the salesperson had a crack at the adjustment as the watchmaker (apparently) was on lunch.

    Sent from my CPH2415 using Tapatalk

  50. #50
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    22,620
    By the time you reach 50 you may have grown out of the desire to own such trinkets........or it may take another 10 years. Trust me, it happens, you're part-way on the journey and you never know when you'll arrive at the destination.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Do Not Sell My Personal Information