Surprised to find that early Bremont watches are now considered both 'neo vintage' and 'collectable'
https://robbreport.com/style/watch-c...bremont-mb-ii/
I've had the first two watches on this list, the MB-11 and the Alt1-C. Both were solidly built watches but will they become future classics?
Originally Posted by Rocket Man
The first generation MB is now 15 years old, not quite neo-vintage, but not so far off.
I doubt the early stuff will become classic or collectible, however that doesn’t stop me wanting a first gen orange barrel MB II. With Bremonts recent troubles these look pretty fair value at about £2K
Dave
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Anyone know what has happened to their much-heralded ENG300 movement? Is it still in production or has the new management ditched the idea to improve profit margins?
My understanding is it has been mothballed due to the economies of scale. Hopefully it will be revived in the future. The movement was a major factor in my purchase of a Viper.
I think so. Not in the same vein as a collectible Rolex reference, but I can definitely see the MBI/ll becoming a cult classic.
A bloke-ish tool watch of a distinctive design, with a number of 'unit watch' variants to collect, different barrel colours, and the elusive MB1.
The regular ones aren't rare per se but nor are they ten a penny. Exists at a nice price point too; reassuringly expensive but substantially more accessible than Rolex.
Might even be the case that, if Bremont continues to decline, it gets a boost from being seen to hail from a ‘golden era’.
However, they say that the traditional Bremont logo is going to remain on pilot models such as the MBII - so perhaps they will be leaving it alone.
I can see the first gen orange barrel MB II becoming very desirable.
I really enjoyed the one that I had, it's a distinctive design and wore very comfortably.
This...I very much fancy trying an orange MB II. I am guessing servicing for these is relatively straightforward? I do sometimes wonder about the logistical nightmare of replacement parts for my 1st gen Anonimos!!
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the official line is that it's being put to one side for now due to cost implications while Bremont concentrate on their new rebrand but there is one area of The Wing still set aside for service/repair of the ENG300 watches.
The unofficial line is that it was an overly expensive idealogy and should never have been pursued in the first place.
My take, it was one heck of a risk given that Bremont never really caught the imagination of the watch buying public. It would have been a brilliant idea and following the original ethos of the English brothers if they had pursued it when/if Bremont started to become more popular to the mainstream. That said, the ENG300 watches, especially the Longitude, are incredible watches and deserved far more credit than they were ever given.
future classics, yes, investments, no. Like other British products, many call them worse than muck when they're available then sob their hearts out and say how brilliant they were once they've killed them off.
Jason Heaton seemed to be struggling a bit with his facts. From the '10 to get now' he mentions a yellow gold Supersonic when in fact it was rose gold, a white gold Hercules H-4 when in fact it was platinum and a yellow gold Hawking, again in rose gold.
If you return to the original meaning of vintage, it makes sense to use it for early discontinued watches.
These days, the only non-vintage wine we see is Champagne - where the climate is never far from being unhelpful to the winegrowers. Blending the produce of various years averages out the character, allowing (hopefully) for a consistent product.
Vintage wine is one made from one single year - the french for the picking of the year's grapes is vendage. Each year has its own character, reflecting the how the weather went during the growing season, and the work done by the winegrower in the vineyard and the winery. Once its made, it's made, and there's no more.
So when a watch company moves on from its early models, vintage becomes a perfectly reasonable term to describe them.
Neo-vintage, though, sounds like people desperately trying to blow air back into a balloon that's resolutely deflating.
it does but the journalists had to come up with some word/phrase to describe it.
I think modern times have a lot to do with this. Over the last century, most things have seen an evolution. When a product needs changing to suit the market, it's usually changed in small ways to adapt to new demands but also to keep some semblance of the product as it is, so you're just buying a new version of an old product. Therefore vintage or classic became words for collectors, the products that were too old to be useful in the current market but had a character that still made them desirable. In modern times, some products have seen extreme changes and so there's no natural evolution. A case in point might be the move from CD to iPod or ICE cars to electric. The Lamborghini Huracan ends production this year as Lamborghini move to a hybrid drivetrain but in 2025 you couldn't call a Huracan vintage. Neo-vintage maybe?
The company feels finished to me - never made any money, new watches at price points that make uncompetitive. Wonder which Hong Kong holding company will eventually end up with the name.
that comment always makes me smile. Of course they made money. Just because they didn't turn a profit on paper makes not a bit of difference, especially for a company building itself to the level they have. Amazon didn't turn a profit for 9 years and look where they are now. As any accountant will tell you, showing no profit at all for a business is the best way to run it, no profit equals no tax.
the bit I will agree with you on is that when you're building, as long as you can afford to, you keep building until the project is finished. What's happened here is that part way through a significant build, the project has been taken over and someone with no clue how to build has come in pretending that they do and made what seems to be a complete mess of it.
Good point, well made - vintage they are!
I'd much rather invest in a vintage model than one of the current ones. Not good news here:
https://www.watchpro.com/bremonts-br...to-14-million/
Well that answer makes me smile!🤣🤣
You don’t see too many of these being offered for sale.
https://www.watchfinder.co.uk/Bremon...98/item/143988
Don’t really know the market for these, but I’m guessing it is pretty rare.
There is something very fishy about that last year's figures compared to the year before.
It seems clear that the investor is likely to have lumped a load of debt onto the company (or some such similar technique), otherwise it seems pretty impossible that in one year they went from a £1m loss on a £21m turnover to a £14m loss on a £20m turnover. £1m less income and £13m more loss? Pull the other one.
That was definitely not related to the new movement machinery, much of which was bought before that last year.
That article is a puff-piece for Cerrato, it's there to prove that he was needed and that he has "saved" the company from their "profligate" founders.
I don't believe a word.
Details set out in the accounts, submitted and freely available for anyone to analyse, on the companies house website, if they can be bothered…
https://find-and-update.company-info...filing-history
The summary clearly states "exceptional costs of £5.7m" due to stock provisions, fixed asset impairment and credit note provisions.
An administrative cost increase of about £3m (unexplained except perhaps by salaries of an increased headcount) forms the majority of the rest of the difference between the years.
As far as I can tell.
It also notes that it had net assets of £24.5m, due to the received investment.
Isn't it possible that they wrote off the costs involved with the new ENG300, not just machinery but development costs etc and also while they're at it, writing off old stock that they will never sell?
they also have a new CEO and I dare say that the two investment companies may have had a slice of the pie.
very easy to 'lose' £13m. One of my first jobs was being tasked to find a missing £11m on.a £250m tender.
Looking at the accounts kindly linked previously, I think that's exactly what they did. I can see that they've written off £3.1m of stock as exceptional items and they've impaired their capitalised development costs and machinery from £1.7m.
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Finally got to try on the new range of watches at an AD yesterday. The Supermarines weren't too bad, not as appealing as the originals but fine in their own right. The bracelet was comfortable but not to my taste. The Terra Novas really did nothing for me.
What struck me more was the lack of direction of the brand based on what I saw in the shop. There was a display with an Alt1-C and Supermarine Chrono, both heritage pieces, a second display with similar then a third display with models that have the ENG300 movement. The new range were in the outside shop window. The salesperson was very pleasant when I asked about the new range and in turn I was asked if I knew anything about Bremont which I subtly suggested that I did. What I found interesting is that the conversation turned immediately to the English brothers, their aspirations and the relatively short history of the brand, nothing of which relates directly to the new range. It did make me wonder how the sales conversation would start if the original pieces weren't there and they were just trying to sell the new range, with no mention of the English brothers as in effect, they wouldn't exist as part of the company. I was also asked what I thought of the new logo. It's not something that concerned me. Compared with the original logo, I far prefer that but if it didn't exist, the new logo wouldn't put me off.
What's quite obvious is that whatever is going on inside the new CEOs head in terms of a new direction and in theory, new price point, on the high street it's just created a very confusing brand.
Last edited by theancientmariner; 18th August 2024 at 08:37.
When one of the founding brothers resigns his directorship you know there's something wrong.
At the very least, their desperate tactic of shoving the boot into the previous regime is unlikely to make anyone want hang around giving warranted credibility to the new lot
Not sure if this has been seen by all yet, but discounts on a couple of new ones already.
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I was quite shocked how dismissive they have been about the management up to the new regime. Actually, not they, just Cerrato, who seems to be the sole mouthpiece of the new company.
A very odd approach, and one that really diminishes the "brand value" that the new regime must have hoped to cash in on.
Especially as the new regime's first set of models tanked so comprehensively.
I haven't seen any reviews yet that have praised the new models to any level. All the reviewers I have read or watched have found the new ranges to be derivative, unrelated to the brand's past, with a new logo that is equally found in a lot of other places. they have also noted that the new range is massively engineered down to cost, so it is not surprising that discounting has started, given that the old Supermarine 300s were only a tiny bit more than the new ones.
Methinks the company may well be sold on at a massive loss in a few years.
I don’t believe anyone of this fine parish has bought one and that speaks volumes.
Given how things are going your only point I have issue with is the implication that the company will be worth anything to anyone in a few years time...
I do honestly hope I'm wrong, but if the current course is maintained it can only end one way.
Maybe it will be sold at loss but as a going concern with plant and tooling etc to someone who could actually make a fully British ebauche? But is that even economically viable? I can't see e.g. Christopher Ward thinking that it would be a good idea when the Swiss and Japanese can produce quality at volume and cheaply, too.
Sure, Nomos did it but is there a demand for a truly UK-made watch? What would be cool would be for them to team up with Eddie and resurrect Smiths as a fully English watch brand. God knows they've got the history (Everest, MoD etc) and some nice designs in their back catalogue. I could honestly see them flying off the shelves to anglophiles the world over. Like remaking the Mini Cooper, Series 1 Land Rover or Jaguar E Type.
Agreed. I suspect Eddie wouldn't be entirely uninterested in retirement if the price was right, so it could certainly have legs. Let's face it, as almost a one-man-band he's made a tremendous success of reviving Smiths: selling-out in seconds with some designs, building lots of goodwill, reselling over cost on ebay, &c &c - hell of an achievement. Imagine all that but with much more resourcing in terms of people and money, plus a good solid UK-made movement (tiny companies like Damasko have managed it, it really shouldn't be an unclimbable mountain...).
Ultimately - as Bremont are proving - you have to offer designs people actually like and want: Eddie's got a brilliant eye for just that - discretely reimagining design classics again-and-again, but making them to a higher standard than the originals, and offering them at a breathtakingly good price. Why everyone else keeps trying to reboot the wheel with new brands does seem faintly absurd by comparison TBH.
Very much apples and oranges. As you mentioned Eddie is basically a one man band offering by all accounts nice watches that seem to be unattainable to an average person like myself (they seem to sell out very quickly as has been mentioned and I have to assume that he doesn't make too many of them) at a very low price. Bremont were making very nice watches that most people seemed to like other than the cost (and marketing) but their cost was comparable to brands offering a similar level of watch, possibly even lower cost and their marketing, well, the more well known brands did worse. I think that if Smiths upscaled they'd just end up being to the British what Mondaine is to the Swiss. Not a bad thing depending on your point of view. I doubt if most high street buyers will have even heard of Smiths watches.
Of course, Bremont have now completely changed direction and most can't fathom what that direction is. They no longer manufacture in the UK, only assemble, have a new range of (effectively Swiss) watches that aren't very striking and seem to be trading off a brand name that hadn't really found its place. I have no idea what will happen over the next few years but if their new CEO doesn't get a grip, there will be nothing left to sell.
This is a very good point about Eddie's watches. Old designs reissued (perhaps at different sizes too - 36mm and 39mm are a pretty good starting point) and made in the UK with British movements would be a very attractive proposition. Homages, on the other hand, put me off completely.
"A man of little significance"
I might be mistaken but I thought Eddie’s watches were generally homages to other models using old Smiths models names…eg the modern Everest doesn’t look like the original Smiths Everest but is a homage to an Explorer?
Often homages that have been tweaked or improved; more like "inspired by" than a slavish 1:1 reproduction.
Yes, I wouldn’t say homage has a negative connotation when it comes to describing Timefactors watches. As someone who doesn’t do vintage, I loved being able to get vintage inspired designs with modern movements. Eddie is a pioneer when it comes to both microbrand watches and producing very desirable homages.
Agreed, however neither of those are transferable to Bremonts target market. Eddie/Time Factors/Smiths seem to work brilliantly as they are but I just don't see it working on a scale that suits the 'high street'.
Agree. I was responding to Foxy who, as I read it, was suggesting that Eddie makes re-issues of Smiths watches and scaling up to a Bremont-like manufacture has legs...I don't think it does. I think Timefactors does what it does superbly but I don't think the Smith's vintage back catalogue is particularly appealing to a wider 'High Street' market and I don't think scaling this to a Bremont-esque company would be viable.
Whilst I think UK microbrands might have some small success, I can't see any company taking up the mantle that Bremont put down and producing a completely UK-manufactured watch.
Sadly I agree. Imho the issues with Bremont were 1.) the strong but not universally popular design language (over-engineered military vibe) and 2.) the costs of starting up full watch manufacture in the UK from scratch. Nomos, for example, did it BUT 1.) their Bauhaus-y designs played well to the Teutonic / Scandi minimalist aesthetic 2.) Germany has a long-established watch manufacturing base (and a border with Switzerland, and is in the EU).
Bremont's target demographic is (was) red trouser wearing Home Counties Ruperts and tactical wannabee Walter Mitties. But there are only so many of them out there and they have other options (Rolex, Tudor, Omega, a G-Shock). Plus the "Made In Britain" thing just wasn't a strong enough USP to justify the costs and therefore the price.
Some of their old three-handers in the Triptick cases were quite nice but for the same money I could get a reputable Swiss brand with solid history, secure future (for parts and servicing going forward) and better residuals. For a lot less dosh there's Time Factors and Christopher Ward.
Maybe the English Bros. saw themselves as the Morgan or Caterham of the watch world but really it all came across as a bit of a Rich Chaps' Vanity Project. The "Public School Air Cadets" ethos really grated with me but perhaps I'm being cynical and my BS detector just needs recalibrating.
Bremonts target demographic was never "red trousered Home Counties Ruperts". That was an illusion created by the Bremont haters on various forums. They were always going to find it difficult manufacturing a watch in Britain and selling it to the British population. For some reason British people don't like success stories. They like "Posh" people even less. So take a couple of entrepreneurs born into a more affluent family than many, living around the "Posh" Henley area and have them create a company making relatively expensive watches that are competing with known brand Swiss watches and it would always struggle in the eyes of the British watch buying public.
The reality was that the founders of the company are "Posh" but also extremely approachable and friendly, were enthusiastic about what everyone else was doing but could talk watches all day long with anybody. The company they owned created watches that were easily on a par with anything at the same price bracket from any other company (ignore forum comments and concentrate on genuine reviews), were unique and recognisable designs and were part manufactured in the UK with the intention (possible over reach) of one day being wholly manufactured in the UK. All it needed was the British watch buying public to get behind it but they never would because they're the British watch buying public.
As Rev-O so eloquently put it, some of their old three handers were quite nice BUT for the same money I could get a reputable Swiss brand. Basically, two comparable watches but the British watch buyer chooses the Swiss watch. Not directing that negativity directly at Rev-O, it's just a British thing. Why buy British when you can buy Swiss.
Fwiw, I like Christopher Ward watches but they're far less expensive for a reason. They feel far less expensive and let's not forget their sales strategy is different, all online and by all accounts, don't have great customer service in comparison to Bremont who had a reputation for stellar customer service.
I’m probably the target market for Bremont….buys multiple watches, interest in military, likes sports/tool watches. The closest they got to me being a customer was the MB2…I think that was their stand out piece…they really nailed the marketing on that….and marketing is probably what makes me hand my money over when buying an object that costs far in excess of its constituent parts. What they couldn’t market, however, was a genuine history. I really buy into brands like Longines that have been around for nearly two centuries. Companies that have a genuine back catalogue that they can reissue. Whenever Bremont produced something, it felt a bit “insincere”. This might be entirely irrational and wrong of me, but I wonder if that is why they never managed to crack the market fully.
I believe that some countries are considered as the natural home for some crafts or skills.
Switzerland and watches are one. Yes, there are great watch brands in Japan and Germany, and decent ones in France and Italy but unless you are in the market for a Roger Smith, most people will chose Swiss over UK for a comparable price. They will do the same in most countries, it’s not a British thing.
I am sure the English Brothers are very pleasant to be with. Probably enthusiastic (passionate is excessive as it’s clear that passion had its price), they were for me marketeers at least as much as they were entrepreneurs. They built a Bremont universe including boutiques but they built it on sand.
Having said that I almost wish the current management kills off the brand rather than serve us the current bland lines. At least it will mean Bremont will be remembered for good quality English watches, with interesting designs.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I think they (we, I) like genuine success stories. This Rich Boys' Vanity Project was never going to be one and certainly isn't now. And why do we dislike "posh" people? Because we've seen our country ****ed over by public school boys. Because they start with all sorts of advantages (social and financial capital) that fuels and underwrites them. Because they're entitled and when it all goes wrong someone else picks up the pieces -- and the bill. Because they know there's a safety net that will catch them when they fall.
That's not quite what said. Or not all of it. I gave reasons for choosing a Tudor or Omega over a Bremont (viz. "solid history, secure future ... and better residuals")
I’m very similar, and I like alternatives to the usual suspects. I did get really close to a first gen MB2, and I’m looking at that market in a semi-serious way.
I hate to say it, but I think although Bremont are still going, they are essentially dead. The watches were Nick and Giles vision, it is no longer their company. I didn’t get all of their vision, too many models, too many tie-ins, and certainly not fragments of embedded history at crazy cost.
Their early stuff was great, and still is, MB2, ALT1-P,Z,C. The core design and brand message was right, and the new management have thrown this away.
I would hate for the company to reprise what happened to Anonimo, some fantastic early stuff, now rendered almost unserviceable due to lack of components such as crowns.
Dave
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I have to say my experience has been the exact opposite, 3 Bremonts with 3 issues with shockingly terrible customer service whereas with Chris Ward with much less expensive watches 2 issues and great customer service.
With regards to each company nowadays, I reckon a mid tier C. Ward betters the new Bremont’s in terms of innovation, movement and build quality.
They may not have intended to target that market but their marketing landed firmly in that demographic. The owners are largely irrelevant as they weren't in store when the buying decision was made and most wouldn't have delved into their backstory or been interested in their love of watches.
Although very few grand manufactures have an unbroken history of production. Longines suffered in the Quartz crisis of the 1970s and is now, along with Omega, part of the Swatch group. How much true continuity there is between, say, a WW2 RAF issued Longines and a modern day watch bearing that name is moot. Arguably Rolex are the biggest and best-known sole survivors but then equally arguably they've only been a truly in-house manufacture since 2004 when they bought Aegler who had been making movements for them.
It's interesting how Morgan, Caterham, Aston Martin et al. use bought-in third-party production engines in the same way the British microbrands use outsourced movements. Personally I don't think we'll ever see series production of watches (i.e. cases, dials AND movements) in the UK ever again. Some small makers, yes; mass produced (say, a thousand or more a year), no.
They knew what they were doing. Bremont clearly pitched to a certain type of man. As I said elsewhere:
(https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...ns-for-Bremont)
and
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?488076-Bremont
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