Reply With QuoteSpot-on yes, I was thinking this - i.e. that given the way it's sought to position itself lately, CW must be delighted with Bremont's self-immolation.Originally Posted by verv
I highly doubt they are going to listen to an obnoxious opinionated goof whose credentials are being a Youtube gobshite and mid tier watch reseller.
Spot-on yes, I was thinking this - i.e. that given the way it's sought to position itself lately, CW must be delighted with Bremont's self-immolation.
Companies like this want to grow too quickly, they see internet start-ups go from 0 to billions virtually overnight and they aspire to that kind of action, whereas the reality is that watch brands build over decades, or fail!
As a brand with no actual history prior to 21st century, I'd say doing a u-turn on design and branding is pretty high risk. Get it wrong and as many people have said, you offer little more than a kickstarter project...you've got to hope your boutique presence manages to still make those watches appealing.
The thing is that it is clearly a move downmarket, even if the prices are broadly the same.
Bremont used to be accused of being relatively poor value.
Given the recent launches' total lack of anything new to justify keeping the price whilst simplifying the offer (no 3-part cases, no case hardening, no infill on the crowns, no sapphire or ceramic in the bezels, movement suspension etc etc) it is hard to see that they present any value at all now.
If they were dropping prices to fit into a new niche, then maybe, but (as I commented elsewhere) a price comparison is that it is
"£3.2k for the old Supermarine 302 (which has GMT) on rubber compares to £2995 for the new Supermarine 300 (no GMT) on rubber. "
I certainly prefer some of what CW are doing to the new Bremont designs. Generally a lot cheaper as well.
Clearly there are people who want a "British" watch at the Bremont kind of price point. There would seem to be an opportunity for CW and maybe Farer to step up...
It's not just Nico though, I haven't read one single positive comment on social media, forums, and by the watch press. In the past GAP and British Airways have both done major re-brands then u-turned when they were the subject of wide-spread criticism. If I was the Bremont CEO I'd be concerned.
Noticed that the old design bremonts have ended up in the clearance section of Banks Lyon.
Sums it up really.
Speaking of Christopher Ward they have gone through several logo changes. Many people mistakenly believe that the CHRward (or something similar) was the original logo it wasnt, there was a CW logo before that and when they changed to the second style there was plenty of criticism and odd explanations as to why it made sense (Apparently there was some historical/medieval abbreviation of Christopher to Chr) being one example. At the time CW were going for the affordable luxury label (Not sure but it may have been around that time they advertised one of their watches along side a Tudor) They also brought out CW wallets, ipad cases etc.
Now they have moved onto perhaps their fourth logo a lot of people seem to look back at the CHRward logo as a preferred look, you dont really see many of the original logo watches about but people are still happy to pay out for the second logo and even wish it was still being made.
Point being changing the logo is not necessarily a terrible thing and a bit like CW Bremont are damned if they do and damned if they dont. Probably the biggest lesson CW have learned on their journey is to charge more for their watches and people will believe that they are buying a "luxury" item. When they were charging under a grand for a jumping hour complication (or £500 in their sales) and just over a grand for a moonphase or world timer they were apparently "junk" and "DFS watches" Now they are charging north of 2 grand they are a "serious competitor"
When I first looked at this thread I assumed Bremont had suddenly put their prices up along side the logo change but they seem to be about the same price they always have.
I've just had a look and it's simply not true. There are plenty of 'old design' Bremonts still for regular sale. There are 10 pages of Bremonts on their website and the latest models are ordered to the front page (hence 'sort by - latest') which is common sense but re order to 'price low to high' and the less expensive old models soon start to appear.
In fairness, I think that the new logo is only a small part of the negative reaction to the changes at Bremont.
Christopher Ward have for some time made affordable good quality watches but handle a typical Christopher Ward next to a typical Bremont and the difference is very noticeable which it should be given the difference in price. I had initially thought that what Cerrato was going to do was carry on with the older designs and introduce a new range that was more affordable to produce and therefore the price bracket could be brought down closer to what Christopher Ward might be doing if they sold through shops. In actual fact, I haven't the faintest clue what Cerrato is doing, or trying to do.
It’s a shame but I might keep an eye out for a reduced price S2000.
The Bicester outlet has them.
Cheers!
If you have to much money and want to buy into a shit story, please do.
Can’t argue about design, but hardened cases, steel and titanium are common place with micro-brands, as are ETA movements.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Keep up! Bremont aren't offering hardened cases with the new models. They are using the same steel as Rolex however so by your reasoning the new Bremont watches are as good as the latest Rolex.
Excuse the bad pic, but this is my C6 Kingfisher - one of CWs first offerings in quartz, and the first logo I believe. I don't wear it anymore as it's too big and heavy for my liking, but style wise I still much prefer it over anything that CW have done since.
This is not the same Bremont
Am not sure if they will gain new fans but will definitely lose a lot of current ones.
I was kindly talking about their older models, the new ones are overpriced micro-brand territory.
And since Bremont uses this, amongst other things, to justify their prices I thought it relevant.
904 steel is also offered by some micro-brands, nothing to see here, just move on.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Story and B/S aside (they are not the only ones to do it - climb a mountain or swim the channel ring a bell?) they do make / did make good quality watches with some interesting features.
I have been impressed by the build quality of ones I have held.
Some here too https://www.markworthingtonjewellers...bremont_1.html
Yes, that was the first logo also my preferred one. I had a pilot watch with that logo and their sector watch which I think was probably their best designed one but at 44mm was just too big and ended up selling it.Excuse the bad pic, but this is my C6 Kingfisher - one of CWs first offerings in quartz, and the first logo I believe. I don't wear it anymore as it's too big and heavy for my liking, but style wise I still much prefer it over anything that CW have done since.
I must have had about 4 or 5 CW watches over the years and sold all of them. I just got sick and tired of the endless brand change, new logo, new direction etc I just felt like a marketing guinea pig, probably a lesson there for Bremont.
Regarding what Bremont offer and what many micro brands offer I think thats pretty much standard now. Gone are the days when things like enamel dials, hardened cases are finished. There was a time when exotic dials were found on higher end micro brands now you can find them everywhere. CW are charging over a grand for a watch with a avventuria dial, you can get one with bracelet and rubber strap from Venezianico for about £800.
The new Bremont watches look a little like some of the Hamiton military watches that have come out its a shame they have dropped the ice hard cases though.
Cheers!
that was kind of my point. You can't judge any brand by the materials that they're made from. In order to compare like with like you have to see them in person, factor in the manner that they're sold - direct to consumer, through shops etc. and also factor in the after sales. There's a lot to any company beyond the materials that what they sell are made from. In my opinion and others, Bremont of the past have been on a level playing field in terms of quality of build with the best of the rest and the after sales has been second to none. The Bremont of the future is potentially a completely different animal.
The ten pages of Bremonts aren’t all in stock though are they. No.
76 are ATO listings.
That said, you’re quite correct, the new turds are occupying the front page.
Meanwhile the MB3 orange and Savannah have been dumped into the sale section along with some others.
Given that the MB is the pick of the range IMO it’s clearance says it all about where the brand is heading.
https://www.fratellowatches.com/brem...chmaking/#gref
billionaire walks into a store and walks out with a few items. He ends up loving them so much that he offers to fund the business. This may sound like a plot in a feel-good movie, except it’s not a movie at all. It is, in fact, how the story went, according to high-profile American investor Bill Ackman.
Ackman has purchased a substantial minority stake in British watchmaker Bremont after buying several watches at its brand boutique in Mayfair London. In an interview with the Financial Times, Ackman recalls sending the founders a handwritten note that read, “I admire your company, I love watches and I would love to learn more.” The investment reportedly comes from Ackman’s personal funds rather than his hedge fund company, Pershing Square Capital Management.
In 2019, the board brought in Chris Reynolds from the company’s key shareholder’s management team to orchestrate the operations. He had the mandate to grow Bremont into one of the watch industry’s preeminent brands and engineering companies with the vision and the foundation laid by the Englishes.
Reynolds tells Fratello, “Bremont has been backed by some wonderful investors for a number of years. They believe in what the brand is about. We tend to attract people who have a similar interest in investing and the same vision for the brand as we do — an interest and a passion towards British watchmaking.”
Sticking to the vision
Reynolds continues, “We’re blessed not to be working in this private-equity-type investment environment, which could be very derailing. We’re building a legacy. We’re looking to build a heritage, luxury brand here. And this takes time. But we’ve got patient backers, and we’re patient. We want to do things right and do things in a way that ensures our clients can have their products looked after for years and years to come. We’re setting up for the future.”
The brand’s leaders are fully aware of the importance of longevity and continuity. “We’re now having original Bremont clients bringing their son or daughter for their graduation present, coming in to buy their Bremont watch. And for their entire life, Bremont has been around as a luxury watch brand, “says Reynolds. “So we’re not necessarily the new kid on the block anymore. I mean, in the world of luxury, unless you’re 200 years old, you’re pretty young in real-world terms. We’ve been around for most of the lives of most people that we’re selling to now.”
Quite delusional to say the least based on latest offerings
Should we let time tell?
Excuse the pun. Lets see where they are in 3 years.
RIAC
Agreed you never know wish them all the best no easy task getting as far as they have.
let's have some perspective.
online retailers almost never have stock of every watch that they're showing online.
online retailers almost always have the products organised either showing the most recent products first or the best selling.
Banks Lyon have 6 Bremont watches in their clearance section yet 110 in their regular watches section. Not really dumping the older design watches just yet then and might suggest that Banks Lyon still have a lot of confidence in the brand.
I seem to buy into a brand when all the smart money moves out. Maybe I should get a a first generation orange barrel MB2 while I can.
D
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FTFY
It is quite possible that they are hedging their bets, and believe that old stock may become more valuable, not less if Bremont demand plummets.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I was previously a big fan of the brand, had several and have one remaining that for personal reasons I'll never sell. I followed their ambitious journey to creating a fully UK manufactured movement with great anticipation, knowing that I wouldn't be a customer of the first iteration, but maybe some time later.
I'm not a fan of the rebranding, but I'm also not daft enough to think that "we" the enthusiast community are a relevant voice or profit when it comes to running their business. However, looking at the new offerings and taking a Supermarine on rubber/leather as an example - the new watch saves you about £250.
That's not a different segment. That's not a different buyer. That's the same people with the same wallets being targeted with a (subjectively) worse looking watch, constructed from (objectively) worse materials, now lacking any of the few unique selling points that they previously had (case design, big name tie-ins e.g. Martin Baker, Boeing etc).
Totally baffling to me. And their UK made movement? Now parked in a corner of the website. "Make an enquiry". How long till the flash new manufacturing facility in Henley gets sold?
It wouldn't greatly surprise me if selling off that asset formed part of the business case for the new investors buying into the company in the first place. If they wanted to keep it, and carry on developing and building British movements, they wouldn't be doing what they're doing now.
Haha exactly the same here, always late to the party.
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II remember back when the forums Bremont fan boys had a falling out over a golden propeller freebie. Used to have quite a strong following . These new offerings look a bit generic. Not sure if the younger market they are aiming for will really buy into the new branding and models.
It's not an asset, it's leased.
Who owns it please? Culden Faw Estate have the land but who owns the building?
RIAC
You just answered your own question!
Who owns the building I mean.
RIAC
https://culdenfawestate.com/commercial/3008/
Shows how much I know!
Thats alot of investment for a rental!
But to be honest, that’s the majority of the luxury watch world they’re all fur coat and no knickers. guys cutting about in big fancy watches and cars that are leased and houses they don’ not own. All false fame and fortune
RIAC
depends on how it's been arranged. Who paid for the build and how is the lease arranged? Might well be better financially for a business to lease a building rather than buy it outright. It's been designed and built with Bremont in mind from the outset. The machining area within the building is actually quite small given Bremonts original aspirations and it was mentioned that there was land behind the Wing for a secondary manufacturing premises when needed. I presume that won't be happening now.
what's curious to me, regardless of the rebrand or the aesthetics of the new releases is that right up until Cerratos appearance and the investment from Ackman, Bremont were pushing the manufacturing angle in a big way. The new movement, case manufacturing - in fact I believe that both the case and bracelet for the Supernova were Bremont manufactured (?), rotor manufacturing etc. It seems that's all been thrown by the wayside which is a very odd move.
Well, Ackman insisted he invested personally, and on a long term basis, having privately bought some of their watches in the Mayfair Store.
It strikes me as more likely that Hellcat LP, the other major investor (and larger than Ackman) is the one pushing in this new direction, as they seem to be more of a short horizon VC group.
The fact that they have between 50-75% of voting rights, whilst holding 25-50% of shares means they have the most significant control.
It will be interesting to see how they get on going forward
I think this is the investment organisation?
https://clark-group.com/our-team/
I never fully understood how ‘Share Premium’ account is utilised in valuations but it does play a large part
Balance sheet values of many companies invested in ?
Can anyone elaborate? Is it ‘goodwill’ in another form ?
Ouch.Made from hardened steel, Trip-Tick is described by Cerrato as having been “more of a design trick” with “no real functionality”.
Abandoning the in-house movement too. There's no reason to buy this brand now :(
´´Nick and Giles embodied a maverick spirit and we definitely want to leverage that.´´ Any meeting, and I´ve sat in a few, where you hear ´´leverage´´ deployed in this fashion, well someone is getting rumped...also it´s nonsensical usage N and G are goneski to any- all intent or purpose, cash trousered and no operational involvement...any leveraging will obviously be of the bullshit sort... and Boy does that Cerrato guy exude oiliness, creep, style over substance...Good luck former Bremont enthusiasts.
That about sums it up for me P.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Hard to argue, I agree. I read that article when it came out and it rather gave me The Fear. Chasing the mass market by dropping the features which distinguish the brand is a risky proposition in whatever sector, and it strikes me that Planet Watch is worse than most given the premium on perceived brand heritage and all that stuff (first instinct is to write “b*ll*cks” there but I know it appeals to some).
As to the new models: blah. To me they look undistinguished, generic and dull. Bremont were always marmite but I liked the distinctive designs and my ALT-1 GMT is a lovely thing with its enamelled crown, black barrel and textured dial. The design has a “voice”, even if its song is emphatically not to all tastes. These new ones are mute. Nothing to say, no means with which to say it.
Last edited by PreacherCain; 17th April 2024 at 15:46.
You know Watchfinder has one (used) at £1750??
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