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Thread: Red traffic light jumpers.

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    Until the road clarification I had you as Ms Daisy for my £5 lol.
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    The wife says i drive slowly as im getting older so theres probably some truth in that.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I am struggling a bit to reconcile the fact that you are a cyclist in the countryside experiencing city like traffic jams.
    I also live in the countryside and any sort of heavy traffic I may have (rarely )encountered in the last few years were invariably down to roadworks and hardly delayed me by more than 10 minutes. I also usually cycle to town because I can. It’s a little more than 10km each way and weather permitting it’s through cycle paths that almost completely avoid main roads.

    There are a given percentage of people who drive for casual matters but many if not most drive because they have to be somewhere at a given time, be it work, surgery, school run, shopping, etc. A group of cyclist is always riding for their own gratification, whereas a tractor or roadworks are men working. I therefore do not believe that the inconvenience they inflict on others can be compared. By not letting people through they are fuelling the sort of attitude we see on this thread and that you contribute to exacerbate by justifying it with false equivalences.
    Peter was right when he said that the problem was people. A cycling commuter risks his life daily because neither the roads nor the drivers give him the respect he deserves. When riding for pleasure, alone or in a group, if you are holding up a car without safe passing options, just let them through : not only will it delay you a lot less than you will delay them, but you don’t know why he is behind the wheel, and the possible reasons that may make that delay unacceptable to him.
    I was shocked by the level of assaults both verbal and physical on the guys and girls working doing their jobs, trying to fix the UK roads, there was a piece on the national news a couple of weeks ago...Southampton snapshot here, for clarity it's drivers not cyclists going rather ott GRRRR at the unacceptability of delays getting to the shops, hair dressers etc...

    https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/20...aches-new-high

    Could it be a selfish, angry- mad people problem with a dash of their perception about the busy ness of their lives and it's demands, getting away from them? An emotional, irrational response to a perception of Chaos... Actually being moved to have a pop, lash out at the folks whether physical or verbal, hard working folks just trying to fix the bloody roads in somewhat dangerous conditions, that seems, well a bit mad...very far from the phlegmatic character traditionally ascribed to the British.
    Last edited by Passenger; 12th April 2024 at 10:04.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I am struggling a bit to reconcile the fact that you are a cyclist in the countryside experiencing city like traffic jams.
    I'll have a try to explain ...

    I live in the countryside, I have a network of small lanes on my doorstep and so my cycling is unimpeded by traffic as I rarely see any cars on the roads I choose to ride on, I try to avoid busy roads and A roads. Its all very easy.

    When I drive my car I am often going to an urban area and as such these journeys are typically delayed by heavy traffic. It's only 7 miles for me to get into Canterbury but I usually have to allow 30 minutes because of the awful traffic in the town. It would be quicker to cycle.

    The point I have been failing to get across is that when you drive you are likely to be delayed by an inconsiderate group of 20 cyclists on maybe 1/100 journeys, where as you are likely to be delayed by other cars on perhaps 95/100 journeys ... so cyclists are really not the problem ... the problem is their is too many cars for the infrastructure and there is no plan to address the situation.

    So ... the media and politicians have conditioned the majority group (car drivers) to hate a vulnerable minority group (cyclists) for the problem (overloaded infrastructure) ... it's the same tactic that gave us Brexit and other unpleasant aspects in society ...


    Cycling really should be part of our transport solution not a hate group, you give the example of the school run as an essential journey, that puts a load of cars on the road at commuting time creating more traffic. When we were all kids there was no school run we walked and cycled ... and guess what the classroom wasn't full of little fat kids either ...

    Because cycling has been marginalised as a mode of transport and become a hate group it is little wonder mum does not want to send little Jonny off to school on his bike for the 2 mile trip ...

    If you have been to some of the European cities which embrace cycling (I am sure you have) I am sure you would agree they are very pleasant places ... plus their health service is likely less burdened by obesity and mental health problems.

    It's time we developed our transport system in the UK and with the advent of eBikes and eScooters there are much better solutions for clean and simple local transport than the car and you don't have to be a Bradley Wiggins wannabe to make a 3 mile commute on an eBike ...

  4. #104
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    I entirely agree with the need to rethink our transport system. I am also all to familiar with Canterburyís accesses and the congestion it generates, although it is worse on its NE than the SW I usually come from
    But the jams we both experienced going there make us part of the problem: our respective cars were taking an active part in the congestion.
    Commuting by bike will always be marginal, when the weather is decent. But the default should be public transport as it is the only form of mass transport that will fill the needs. Large cheap parkings outside towns, and plentiful park and ride shuttles or expensive inner city vignettes should help nudge drivers towards making the right choice.
    In my previous post I made the distinction between people cycling for pleasure and for work. I donít want to begrudge anyoneís pastime, especially in this case as itís healthy and non polluting so good for society overall (in a very, very limited way but still) but regardless of how rare the occasion maybe, a group of riders should always have the basic courtesy of letting cars through at regular intervals when passing is difficult.
    Itís not only better for their own health (you never know if the guy behind you is so stressed at being delayed he will lose it and attempt to pass regardless), itís also better for all cyclists as it can only improve their image in the eyes of drivers. Itís usually much more efficient to be nice to people if you want to expect the same than demanding it because the law says so.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    … but regardless of how rare the occasion maybe, a group of riders should always have the basic courtesy of letting cars through at regular intervals when passing is difficult.
    Agreed, and I have said this previously at least twice on this topic.

    But if you do experience some inconsiderate cyclists that’s not a green light to become a hater.

    Just like I don’t hate all drivers for the behaviours detailed in the OP.

    Sometimes there isn’t a safe space to pull over and so you have to continue until there is a suitable space.

    All that is needed is a little mutual consideration on both sides.

    What these threads tease out is there are a number of drivers with a programmed dislike of cyclists that’s both illogical and unpleasant.

    The reason people get frustrated driving is because the infrastructure is massively overloaded. That isn’t the fault of cyclists.

    More people cycling is part of the solution not the problem. People cycle commute all year round in Europe with no problems as I did as a child going to school.
    Last edited by Montello; 12th April 2024 at 16:14.

  6. #106
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    The lack of a safe place to stop is a red herring. Within a mile there is always a way, even on a narrow lane. I have always found one (I cycle on an e-bike). As the saying goes, when there is a willÖ
    Those who cycle to work usually live in town or close suburbia, are fit and confident enough to do it, and find it advantageous compared to a car or public transport (where it is available and fit for the userís purpose). Therefore it will always be a minority as distance to work is a key factor.
    We all know inner city congestion is a major issue and this will only get worse with increasing housing prices in towns forcing people to live further away.
    Cycling is not the solution for those people. Public transport is one but will require major investments after having been consistently underfunded for decades, and I canít see it being operational within the next 2 or 3 decades.
    Park & Ride is quicker to implement, considerably cheaper but the massive parking lots will have plenty of nimbysÖ
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    I'll have a try to explain ...

    I live in the countryside, I have a network of small lanes on my doorstep and so my cycling is unimpeded by traffic as I rarely see any cars on the roads I choose to ride on, I try to avoid busy roads and A roads. Its all very easy.

    When I drive my car I am often going to an urban area and as such these journeys are typically delayed by heavy traffic. It's only 7 miles for me to get into Canterbury but I usually have to allow 30 minutes because of the awful traffic in the town. It would be quicker to cycle.

    The point I have been failing to get across is that when you drive you are likely to be delayed by an inconsiderate group of 20 cyclists on maybe 1/100 journeys, where as you are likely to be delayed by other cars on perhaps 95/100 journeys ... so cyclists are really not the problem ... the problem is their is too many cars for the infrastructure and there is no plan to address the situation.

    To be honest I rarely get delayed by other cars so that's simply not true. Did you just pluck those figures out of thin air?

    So ... the media and politicians have conditioned the majority group (car drivers) to hate a vulnerable minority group (cyclists) for the problem (overloaded infrastructure) ... it's the same tactic that gave us Brexit and other unpleasant aspects in society ...

    I don't think I've ever seen the 'media and politicians' in any way trying to condition people to hate cyclists. Exactly the opposite in fact. You only have to look at the cyclist friendly laws that have recently been brought in. And tagging it onto a 'tactic that gave us Brexit and other unpleasant aspects in society' to try and get sympathy for your views is pure comedy. What next, 'cyclists against gammons in cars' ?

    Cycling really should be part of our transport solution not a hate group, you give the example of the school run as an essential journey, that puts a load of cars on the road at commuting time creating more traffic. When we were all kids there was no school run we walked and cycled ... and guess what the classroom wasn't full of little fat kids either ...

    Because cycling has been marginalised as a mode of transport and become a hate group it is little wonder mum does not want to send little Jonny off to school on his bike for the 2 mile trip ...

    I think people just decided the motor car was a more realistic way to get around. I don't think it was a conscious effort to marginalise cycling. As for being a 'hate group' are you sure it's a government plot, or is it just a result of cyclists attitudes to car drivers?

    If you have been to some of the European cities which embrace cycling (I am sure you have) I am sure you would agree they are very pleasant places ... plus their health service is likely less burdened by obesity and mental health problems.

    Where are these Shangri La's of future living of which you speak?

    It's time we developed our transport system in the UK and with the advent of eBikes and eScooters there are much better solutions for clean and simple local transport than the car and you don't have to be a Bradley Wiggins wannabe to make a 3 mile commute on an eBike ...

    Next time I take the dog to the vet, pop to the DIY store for some materials, or the garden centre for some compost I probably won't consider going on my bicycle or a scooter. I'm sure you will.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    The lack of a safe place to stop is a red herring. Within a mile there is always a way, even on a narrow lane. I have always found one (I cycle on an e-bike). As the saying goes, when there is a willÖ
    Those who cycle to work usually live in town or close suburbia, are fit and confident enough to do it, and find it advantageous compared to a car or public transport (where it is available and fit for the userís purpose). Therefore it will always be a minority as distance to work is a key factor.
    We all know inner city congestion is a major issue and this will only get worse with increasing housing prices in towns forcing people to live further away.
    Cycling is not the solution for those people. Public transport is one but will require major investments after having been consistently underfunded for decades, and I canít see it being operational within the next 2 or 3 decades.
    Park & Ride is quicker to implement, considerably cheaper but the massive parking lots will have plenty of nimbysÖ
    Exactly this. Not everyone is Jeremy Vine who can cycle a couple of miles to work. My last commute was approx 16 miles, not something I'd want to do on a bicycle in all weathers thanks (although in the late 40s early 50s my father did just that, until he had a car). As for public transport the bus would take around 1 1/2 -2 hours. We don't all live in cities with buses and tube trains every few minutes.
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  9. #109
    Itís a default answer when this is brought upÖcar drivers hate cyclists, i don't believe that the case.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    Itís a default answer when this is brought upÖcar drivers hate cyclists, i don't believe that the case.
    So why would car drivers dish out punishment passes to cyclistsÖ something that one of the above posters has admitted to previously and something that every cyclist has experienced?

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    So why would car drivers dish out punishment passes to cyclistsÖ something that one of the above posters has admitted to previously and something that every cyclist has experienced?
    I have no idea what that is, expand a little?

  12. #112
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    Quite a few years ago a bunch of four or five of us cyclists were riding along the A4 near Bath when a car driver overtook us, blared his horn, & waved what looked like a credit card at us through his wound down nearside window. Once heíd passed us he did an emergency stop which resulted in us all having to brake heavily. One of the group, who was also my professional colleague, lost traction, hit the deck, slid along the road & ended up embedded under the rear of the vehicle. We had to pull him out. Turns out that the driver was an off duty police officer who had taken exception to us cycling in a legal manner & the Ďcredit cardí was actually his warrant card.
    Fortunately we were able to get his details & subsequently made a complaint. This resulted in the powers that be saying to us, in retrospect off the record, sorry heís a known tw@t in the force.

    Fast forward many years & I had arranged to meet that same colleague for a beer at the local pub at 8pm. He had arranged to go out for an evening ride with half a dozen guys from the cycling club & said he would meet me at the pub after.

    At about 7.30 I had a call from him & he said that heíd be a bit late. ďThereís been an incidentÖ.one of the group has been hit by a car (iirc it was a Range Rover) head on on a single track road.ÖÖ.in fact heís dead. I carried out CPR on him but his neck was clearly broken & he had cerebrospinal fluid coming out of his nose.Ē

    The Range Rover had been barrelling towards the group & most of them had managed to veer into a gateway but the last one in line couldnít get out of the way in time. Russian Roulette I guess.

    The lad was only 23 & had just completed his PhD. The driver was curled up on the back seats of his vehicle crying.

    The chalk marks were on the road for quite a few months before the rain washed them away.

    I still met him for the beer :-/

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    I have no idea what that is, expand a little?


    https://www.bikelaw.com/2017/07/puni...-pass-defined/


    The very fact this topic was about bad drivers and then turns into a pile on about cyclists tells you about peoples attitudes.

  14. #114
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    Itís not a pile on against cyclists, no matter how much you want it to be. Itís about incivilities. There are many types of road users but the more abundant one is cars. Running red lights is both common and potentially lethal for pedestrians, cyclists and even drivers. But the most common (percentage wise) red light runners are cyclists so it was widely expected to have them included in the moan.
    Then it was extended to cyclists most common incivility, riding leisurely in a group (the plural starts at two) without yielding when a safe pass isnít possible. It is also proof of a total disregard for their own security, as regardless of rights and wrongs they will always be the main casualty if anything goes wrong.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Itís not a pile on against cyclists, no matter how much you want it to be. Itís about incivilities. There are many types of road users but the more abundant one is cars. Running red lights is both common and potentially lethal for pedestrians, cyclists and even drivers. But the most common (percentage wise) red light runners are cyclists so it was widely expected to have them included in the moan.
    Then it was extended to cyclists most common incivility, riding leisurely in a group (the plural starts at two) without yielding when a safe pass isnít possible. It is also proof of a total disregard for their own security, as regardless of rights and wrongs they will always be the main casualty if anything goes wrong.
    Are you still dishing out the punishment passes to the errant cyclists in the Ashford area that donít measure up to your requirement to yield to you?

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    https://www.bikelaw.com/2017/07/puni...-pass-defined/


    The very fact this topic was about bad drivers and then turns into a pile on about cyclists tells you about peoples attitudes.
    I may well be wrong but isnít that just indicative of just idiots rather than hatred for cyclists?


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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Where are these Shangri La's of future living of which you speak?
    https://www.wired.com/story/most-bik...-design-index/


    But then you'd need a passport to experience such things!

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Are you still dishing out the punishment passes to the errant cyclists in the Ashford area that donít measure up to your requirement to yield to you?
    If they ride 2 abreast and show no sign of giving me more room I pass them as I would pass a car, and only when it would be safe to pass one. No more, no less. I have seen some punishment passes (which also means I had stayed behind btw); just because you feel exposed doesnít mean you were being punish passed.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

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    Oh well, letís just see if we can all agree to all treat each other with mutual respect on the roads regardless of how we choose to travel.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbh View Post
    https://www.wired.com/story/most-bik...-design-index/


    But then you'd need a passport to experience such things!
    I have one thanks. Been to some but not on a bicycle. At the end of the day city dwelling isnít for me Iím afraid.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Oh well, letís just see if we can all agree to all treat each other with mutual respect on the roads regardless of how we choose to travel.
    I always give the full road width, if they cycle without respect then my exhaust may happen to bang loudly to make them aware Iím there as they often donít look over their shoulder.


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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Oh well, letís just see if we can all agree to all treat each other with mutual respect on the roads regardless of how we choose to travel.
    Indeed, and that includes walking. I've just spent 3 days in York, a lot of the city centre is traffic free for most parts of the day - with bollards, (and people to operate them to cover for essential/emergency vehicles), to limit access. But cyclists are permitted free roam, which is fine and happens in many cities abroad, however the number of cyclists who tear up behind people walking without giving any form of warning was quite disturbing when they pass in close proximity. In the 3 days we were there we only saw one cyclist with a bell fitted to his bike, is it now considered 'soft' to have a bell or other warning device fitted to a bike? Oh, and this was out of term time for students, I can only think it will be worse once the college/university students are back.

    It's the same here at home. We have a joint cycle/footpath, known locally as the Red Path, and cyclists literally tear along and, in the main, give no warning when approaching from behind people. I stopped one once and asked why he'd given no warning and his reply was "I could see you so I knew you were there and avoided you!".

    But as I said in an earlier post - it's people. I genuinely believe that these same cyclists will behave with the same lack of curtesy when they're out in their cars as they do on their bikes, or when they're pushing their trollies at the local supermarket.

    For the record, I'm a cyclist, I have a bell fitted and I always give ample warning to pedestrians - both with the bell and with my voice if I think they haven't heard the bell. It really isn't hard to do. And when we're walking and a cyclist does give warning we always step to one side - it makes it safer for us and easier for them.
    Best Regards - Peter

    I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Griswold View Post
    is it now considered 'soft' to have a bell or other warning device fitted to a bike?
    Well done you have now introduced another dimension to the anti cycling brigade to latch onto.

    When you drive and you come up to a slower moving vehicle or a horse do you sound your horn before you overtake?

    Personally I find the use of bells a bit obnoxious when I’m walking. It feels a bit like the above ridiculous analogy.

    I find it much better to just say “morning” or “hello” and sometimes you get the greeting returned but more often than not you get a surprised face as many people are walking with ear buds in listening to music or podcasts so a greeting or a bell these days usually falls on deaf ears.

    The main issue I find when encountering people in the lanes are the previously mentioned music/phone zombies and dog walkers why have no control of their loose dogs which then chase you …

    As ever none of this is a problem if people act with consideration and certainly not an issue limited to people on bikes.

    If we are in the business of generalisations, if we were to measure the % of a***holes amongst cyclists I suspect it would be lower than that of BMW and Audi drivers …
    Last edited by Montello; 13th April 2024 at 12:57.

  24. #124
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    I use the bell from as far as I can so as not to startle pedestrians but you are right, those with AirPods are isolating themselves and will not realise youíre here until you make them jump, and theyíll act as if itís your fault.
    And to answer your (rhetorical) question, no, you donít do that when arriving behind cyclists or horses: in both those cases youíll stay behind until you have room to pass so there is no reason for it. Cyclists, on the other hand and for the vast majority, WILL go through, slaloming between pedestrians if they have to, but will not stop. Can you see the difference?
    Again, this is not about criticising cyclists for what they do, but for what they donít do: in most cases there is no need for them to stop but it is essential they make people aware of their presence asap.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Well done you have now introduced another dimension to the anti cycling brigade to latch onto.

    When you drive and you come up to a slower moving vehicle or a horse do you sound your horn before you overtake?

    Personally I find the use of bells a bit obnoxious when I’m walking. It feels a bit like the above ridiculous analogy.

    I find it much better to just say “morning” or “hello” and sometimes you get the greeting returned but more often than not you get a surprised face as many people are walking with ear buds in listening to music or podcasts so a greeting or a bell these days usually falls on deaf ears.

    The main issue I find when encountering people in the lanes are the previously mentioned music/phone zombies and dog walkers why have no control of their loose dogs which then chase you …

    As ever none of this is a problem if people act with consideration and certainly not an issue limited to people on bikes.

    If we are in the business of generalisations, if we were to measure the % of a***holes amongst cyclists I suspect it would be lower than that of BMW and Audi drivers …
    Not quite sure how you equate driving up to the rear of a horse and then cycling up behind someone. I guess you realise that bikes in most cases are virtually silent and if they're tanking along can take someone by surprise, especially if the pedestrian was to step sideways for whatever reason, perhaps pedestrians should be fitted with rear view mirrors on their shoulders now to aid cyclists? Of course when you come up on a horse from behind (in a car) in most cases the rider will be aware of you which is why you slow down, you'd obviously not want to sound your horn because you'd spook the hoss. I think somewhere down the line you've lost the plot and are saying any load of old boll+@&%s!
    Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 13th April 2024 at 13:18.

  26. #126
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    Drove 1 1/2 miles from the village to town (it's a small town) this afternoon. Wasn't held up by other cars, tractors or horses. Plain sailing. Coming in the opposite direction however were 2 lycra clad pedallers out for a jaunt about 50 yards apart and each had 4 cars behind them with no chance of overtaking.

    Why not just go to a spinning class?
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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    Not quite sure how you equate driving up to the rear of a horse and then cycling up behind someone. I guess you realise that bikes in most cases are virtually silent and if they're tanking along can take someone by surprise, especially if the pedestrian was to step sideways for whatever reason, perhaps pedestrians should be fitted with rear view mirrors on their shoulders now to aid cyclists? Of course when you come up on a horse from behind (in a car) in most cases the rider will be aware of you which is why you slow down, you'd obviously not want to sound your horn because you'd spook the hoss. I think somewhere down the line you've lost the plot and are saying any load of old boll+@&%s!
    Well he's already blamed cyclists bad press on a media and political plot and Brexit, so you might be right!
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Drove 1 1/2 miles from the village to town (it's a small town) this afternoon. Wasn't held up by other cars, tractors or horses. Plain sailing. Coming in the opposite direction however were 2 lycra clad pedallers out for a jaunt about 50 yards apart and each had 4 cars behind them with no chance of overtaking.

    Why not just go to a spinning class?
    Plain sailing for the whole 1 1/2 miles, well done you, why not walk or ride, get the sun on your face, fresh air in your lungs, you never know it may make you feel healthier!

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Drove 1 1/2 miles from the village to town (it's a small town) this afternoon. Wasn't held up by other cars, tractors or horses. Plain sailing. Coming in the opposite direction however were 2 lycra clad pedallers out for a jaunt about 50 yards apart and each had 4 cars behind them with no chance of overtaking.

    Why not just go to a spinning class?
    Does it make a difference if they're 'lycra clad'?

  30. #130
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    Just the perfect bike for the 3 mile round trip.

    https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...cess-Sovereign

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by trident-7 View Post
    Does it make a difference if they're 'lycra clad'?
    Oh yes Ö that puts them right at the top of the list.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbh View Post
    Plain sailing for the whole 1 1/2 miles, well done you, why not walk or ride, get the sun on your face, fresh air in your lungs, you never know it may make you feel healthier!
    Because I was taking some stuff to my brothers place and it would have been rather difficult to carry on a cycle. Also after that I needed to go to the DIY store at the other end of town and pick up some shelving. Again rather difficult on a cycle.
    But I did take the mad spaniel out for a walk later which achieved the sunshine, fresh air and healthier feel, even if he did pull me into the pub for a crafty pint and dog biscuit for him courtesy of the locals and the jar on the bar!

    Quote Originally Posted by trident-7 View Post
    Does it make a difference if they're 'lycra clad'?
    I don't know to be honest, you'd have to ask them that. When I cycle around the village I don't feel the need for it.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  33. #133
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    The thing with prejudice is those that hold it are often unaware or consider their view or position reasonable or correct.

    Most wealthy white males have ever been on the receiving end of negative prejudiceÖ I include myself in that fortunate position.

    The only time in my life I have been on the receiving end of unpleasant negative prejudice is when I ride my bike. Itís real and itís frighteningÖ I have had cars deliberately drive at me and sound their horns and throw stuff out of the window at me for absolutely no reason. I have had people rage at me randomlyÖ just because Iím riding a bike.

    Fortunately these encounters are rare and donít diminish my enjoyment of the sport.

    Clearly some think that we have no place on the road, please can you just live and let live because when there is a coming together itís always the cyclist that loses as demonstrated by the tragic example trident 7 shared.

    Yes there are some inconsiderate cyclists but just as many inconsiderate motorists, the consequences of their actions are likely to be much more serious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    The thing with prejudice is those that hold it are often unaware or consider their view or position reasonable or correct.

    Most wealthy white males have ever been on the receiving end of negative prejudice… I include myself in that fortunate position.

    The only time in my life I have been on the receiving end of unpleasant negative prejudice is when I ride my bike. It’s real and it’s frightening… I have had cars deliberately drive at me and sound their horns and throw stuff out of the window at me for absolutely no reason. I have had people rage at me randomly… just because I’m riding a bike.

    Fortunately these encounters are rare and don’t diminish my enjoyment of the sport.

    Clearly some think that we have no place on the road, please can you just live and let live because when there is a coming together it’s always the cyclist that loses as demonstrated by the tragic example trident 7 shared.

    Yes there are some inconsiderate cyclists but just as many inconsiderate motorists, the consequences of their actions are likely to be much more serious.
    I totally concur with all that Montello. It’s become a way of life for me. I think it’s a sign of the times. The whole world has become polarised, there’s no middle ground, you’re for us or against us, survival of the fittest etc. etc. When I ride I’m acutely aware of the road situation. I feel like I have an inbuilt RADAR system. As you say, whoever is in the right or in the wrong, it’s nearly always the cyclist that ends up dead….& if you wear Lycra then you’re asking for it :-/

  35. #135
    I think it's a certain type of motorist - often those who like to 'push on' (daft phrase).

  36. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    I think it's a certain type of motorist - often those who like to 'push on' (daft phrase).
    and drive through red lights :(

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by trident-7 View Post
    I totally concur with all that Montello. Itís become a way of life for me. I think itís a sign of the times. The whole world has become polarised, thereís no middle ground, youíre for us or against us, survival of the fittest etc. etc. When I ride Iím acutely aware of the road situation. I feel like I have an inbuilt RADAR system. As you say, whoever is in the right or in the wrong, itís nearly always the cyclist that ends up deadÖ.& if you wear Lycra then youíre asking for it :-/
    Blimey itís like a religious thing.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTigerUK View Post
    and drive through red lights :(
    Groundhog day :-/

  39. #139
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    The irony is that the victimisation of cyclists Montello and others rave about is contributing to the polarisation on the issue, here, in the press and on the road.
    Most of those who have expressed criticism of cyclists behaviours have been assimilated as driving bullies, despite the fact that most also ride regularly.
    I have said it before but survival instinct must kick in. When I sail I remember that one of the first things I was taught is that at sea, Might is right, despite all the rules that give sailing ships the right of way over most motorised others.
    I use the same caution when on a bike. Itís not rocket science FFS
    When we were kids we were taught to look left and right before crossing the road, even on a zebra: same logic.
    I will add that in my modest 5 to 600 miles a year on a bike, I have never experienced aggression from a driver. It could be because as soon as I can I let them through, and make it clear I will when I canít move out of the way immediately.
    I am sure there are psychopathic drivers with a deep hatred of lycra, but nothing can be done preemptively so just assume all drivers are potential maniacs, act accordingly and you will see a serious reduction in the hostility you claim you face so often.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    you claim you face so often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post

    Fortunately these encounters are rare

    If you read my post I said the experience is rare …

    I ride about 8000 miles a year, I dress in Lycra to do so because that this the most comfortable attire for the task.

    I am of course mindful of the risks and ride accordingly and always yield rather than hold people up, as I have stated numerous times on this topic.

    That said I have experienced random aggression for no reason, I can only assume it’s because some people have an issue with Lycra clad cyclists. The issue is real and most unpleasant.

    If you had experienced it you would understand.

    Victim blaming is the easy option.
    Last edited by Montello; 13th April 2024 at 22:54.

  41. #141
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    Some people have issues, full stop. And it doesnít matter if they drive, walk or ride. Staying out of their way is by far the less unpleasant thing you can do.
    But generalising this and making it a us vs them type of problem is not going to help the issue, as demonstrated in this thread where people who both ride and drive have taken sides when none were needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Brilliant. Post #2 and itís the cyclists fault already. Although not a single mention of cyclists in the OP.
    The post quoted above was your first post in the threadÖ
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Some people have issues, full stop. And it doesnít matter if they drive, walk or ride. Staying out of their way is by far the less unpleasant thing you can do.
    But generalising this and making it a us vs them type of problem is not going to help the issue, as demonstrated in this thread where people who both ride and drive have taken sides when none were needed.



    The post quoted above was your first post in the threadÖ
    My post was in response to the predictable anti cyclist vibe that appeared, I should have just ignored it.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    My post was in response to the predictable anti cyclist vibe that appeared, I should have just ignored it.
    Do cyclist run red lights? I believe the answer is unmistakably yes, very often. So it was legitimate in the thread.
    It then moved on to riding in group issues, clearly outside the initial scope of the thread.

    But when you stepped in the question for you really might have been do you ride in medium to large groups? If yes, you read about the hostility their disdain for other users creates. Individual cyclists blocking cars are waving the proverbial red rag to the type of people they should try and win to their side.
    If no, maybe ignoring it would have been better, but maybe not. We shall never know.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Do cyclist run red lights? I believe the answer is unmistakably yes, very often. So it was legitimate in the thread.
    It then moved on to riding in group issues, clearly outside the initial scope of the thread.

    But when you stepped in the question for you really might have been do you ride in medium to large groups? If yes, you read about the hostility their disdain for other users creates. Individual cyclists blocking cars are waving the proverbial red rag to the type of people they should try and win to their side.
    If no, maybe ignoring it would have been better, but maybe not. We shall never know.
    No real dog in this fight (I cycle, motorbike and drive), but I remember on the news a few years back in London as a cyclist youíre statistically safer to ignore red lights and make your own mind up.

    Probably something to do with all the cyclists not understanding HGVs and becoming statistics themselves when a HGV is at the front of a red light and turns left on green.

    One example-type only however and nothing to do with group cycling or the majority of examples given in this thread.

  45. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    My post was in response to the predictable anti cyclist vibe that appeared, I should have just ignored it.
    Ask yourself why

  46. #146
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    Well worth a read, some data based studies on the Driver/ Cyclist vibes, yup it's official in some drivers the hate exists...cyclists it seems offend the moral order of the car based hierarchy, 'they get in the way'' their presence on the hallowed roads of the motor vehicle enthusiasts is transgressive causing some motorists to give them ''altruistic punishments''

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton...en-overtaking/

    More here,

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...clists-so-much
    Last edited by Passenger; 14th April 2024 at 09:32.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Because I was taking some stuff to my brothers place and it would have been rather difficult to carry on a cycle. Also after that I needed to go to the DIY store at the other end of town and pick up some shelving. Again rather difficult on a cycle.
    But I did take the mad spaniel out for a walk later which achieved the sunshine, fresh air and healthier feel, even if he did pull me into the pub for a crafty pint and dog biscuit for him courtesy of the locals and the jar on the bar!



    I don't know to be honest, you'd have to ask them that. When I cycle around the village I don't feel the need for it.
    How far around the village do you cycle ook?...if typically only a couple of miles, say with a stop or 2, maybe pop in for the paper or a cheeky pint, then you'd not need lycra...just your cycle clips for trousers or tuck into socks.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passenger View Post
    Well worth a read, some data based studies on the Driver/ Cyclist vibes, yup it's official in some drivers the hate exists...cyclists it seems offend the moral order of the car based hierarchy, 'they get in the way'' their presence on the hallowed roads of the motor vehicle enthusiasts is transgressive causing some motorists to give them ''altruistic punishments''

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton...en-overtaking/

    More here,

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...clists-so-much
    Cyclists are hated because they are an easy target. But like everything itís a few that give the majority a bad name. Lorry drivers hate car drivers who hold us up, everyone has a hate group but the thing that Iíve never understood is that everyone thinks they are invincible.


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by aa388 View Post
    Cyclists are hated because they are an easy target. But like everything itís a few that give the majority a bad name. Lorry drivers hate car drivers who hold us up, everyone has a hate group but the thing that Iíve never understood is that everyone thinks they are invincible.


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
    And itīs easy to hate a minority group, theyīre visible, they even wear special, fancy lycra clothing!!! How very dare they, deviants, no respect for the hierarchy, donīt pay road tax either, cheapskates, having their fun cycling about just enjoying themselves, not a care in the world. GRRRR barstewards.

    I suppose in the hierarchy the lorry drivers are fairly invincible, then the white vans, the large off roader type vehicles, mid size cars, motorbikes, cyclists the tiddlers, bottom of the food chain. Agree itīs the few but thereīs a natural tendency to generalise the misbehaviour within a minority group and apply it to all.

  50. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Passenger View Post
    And itīs easy to hate a minority group, theyīre visible, they even wear special, fancy lycra clothing!!! How very dare they, deviants, no respect for the hierarchy, donīt pay road tax either, cheapskates, having their fun cycling about just enjoying themselves, not a care in the world. GRRRR barstewards.

    I suppose in the hierarchy the lorry drivers are fairly invincible, then the white vans, the large off roader type vehicles, mid size cars, motorbikes, cyclists the tiddlers, bottom of the food chain. Agree itīs the few but thereīs a natural tendency to generalise the misbehaviour within a minority group and apply it to all.
    I don't hate cyclists or have any prejudice, thats a drum the likes of Monty likes to bang.
    I have always given cyclists a wide berth, slowed down and do whats right when coming up on one but what i dislike is the way that large groups feel they don't need to pull over and yield to faster moving traffic. It’s a concept that horse riders, tractor drivers and even some car drivers subscribe to when they don't know where they’re going. The argument for this of course is to expect the driver(s) of the cars to simply sit back and take a chill pill. In my years of driving i have never once seen a cyclist pull to one side and let faster traffic through. There needs to be consideration yet it appears to only applicable to one side which is what i find rather infuriating about some cyclists.

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