Reply With QuoteDon't you have pictures of how it looked before the damage? Surely that's the only way to prove they damaged it.
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Gents
Just a heads up that RMSD insurance isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be. A few months ago I sold a mint Seiko SJE093 on this forum to a member in Scotland. The watch was packaged correctly and sent RMSD with enhanced insurance.
For some reason the watch got to the Glasgow sorting centre but was then diverted to Belfast, where after a couple of days it made its way back to Glasgow and finally to the buyer.
When it arrived with the buyer the package had clearly been opened and then resealed with Border Force tape. The assumption is that this happened in Belfast (where the watch was never supposed to have travelled to in any case). Upon opening the package it appears that Border Force had cut the lining of the presentation box and had also put the watch back in the presentation box without securing it using the 'hooks' that are in the box to keep it securely in place.
As such the watch was loose in the box, got bashed and sustained damage that Seiko quoted £1150 to fix.
After various escalations Royal Mail have concluded that as there is no damage to the packaging the damage wasn't sustained on its journey with them and they won't pay out. They want to take no responsibility for the fact they erroneously sent it to Belfast, where Border Force messed about with it.
Their communication below;
Thank you for your email on the 22nd*December 2023, regarding the damage of a Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed by 1pmitem, reference xxxxxxxx* I was sorry to learn*the watch you sent was received damaged.
*
I understand you believe this item was damaged at Border Force whilst on its journey through the Royal Mail postal network.* I appreciate that this item should not have gone to the Northern Ireland Mail Centre, and this is where it would have been passed to Border Force to have been opened and inspected.
*
After investigating the packaging from the photographs you have provided, the item was packaged according to Royal Mail packaging guidelines and as there is no damage to the outer packaging of the item, I can determine this item was not damaged throughout the Royal Mail postal network.* Upon inspection of the damage to the watch box and the watch itself.* *I cannot confirm if this was damaged by Border force,* an investigation was raised to them however, no information was located to indicate that this item was damaged whilst in their care.* Under normal circumstances if any damage were to happen whilst an item is in Border Forces care they would place a letter inside the packing after opening it, to inform the recipient of the damage and how to make a claim.
*
As I have no evidence that the damage to the box the watch was held in and the damage to the watch itself was caused by Royal Mail or Border Force whilst in the postal network, I am not able to award any compensation in this case.* If you still believe that this damage was caused by Border Force I must advised to contact them and place a claim, details for Border Force and how to contact them can be located at*Border Force - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)*in the Contact Border Force section of the website.
*
In closing I would like to that this opportunity to thank you for allowing the Postal Review Panel to review your complaint and once again, please accept my apologies for the problems this matter has caused.
*
This is the Postal Review Panel’s final decision on behalf of Royal Mail regarding your complaint.* If you are unhappy with our response you can make an application to the independent body POSTRS (the Postal Redress Service), which is free of charge.* For clarity, POSTRS is an alternative dispute resolution body, which is entirely separate from Royal Mail.* POSTRS will be able to advise you if your complaint falls within the scope of the scheme rules and the information sheet below provides information about the scheme.
*
Further information and an application form for POSTRS can be obtained through their website*www.cedr.com/postrs; by writing to POSTRS, 100 St Paul’s Churchyard, London, EC4M 8BU; email:*postrs@cedr.com* or telephone 020 7520 3766.* Please note that you must make an application to POSTRS within 12 months of the date on this correspondence.
*
Yours sincerely
Don't you have pictures of how it looked before the damage? Surely that's the only way to prove they damaged it.
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Yep I had those and provided them. They aren't denying the damage they are just saying because the outer packaging wasn't damaged it didn't happen whilst in the RM network so not their fault. Border Force clearly damaged it - my issue is it was RM's incompetence that led it to being sent to Belfast and inspected by Border Force in the first place - it was a simple journey from London to Glasgow, their incompetence led to it going to Belfast which triggered a Border Force inspection and subsequent damageOriginally Posted by Faiz
Oh wow that is ridiculous!
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Surely they can understand the notion of our shiny thing in a box with rocks, shake box, shiny thing isn’t shiny anymore & yet the box doesn’t have to show any damage externally.
That really is shocking behaviour on their part, especially as BF shouldn’t have had their hands on it in the first place.
I’d keep pushing with every avenue with this.
I would consider issuing small claims court case and join both Royal Mail and Birder Force as defendants. They can then argue between them.
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I’d just issue the claim against Royal Mail and leave them to take up the issue with Border Force.
Your issue is with RM as the watch was damaged whilst in their care. Involving Border Force is just a distraction that confuses the issue.
Last edited by Dave+63; 25th January 2024 at 08:50.
They are correct in that it was not damaged whilst in care of Border Force, don’t think you can claim otherwise.
They did however not pack it correctly so are responsible (IMO).
Your contract is with Royal Mail. I’d issue a letter (entirely factual with no emotive language) claiming for the repair costs as quoted by Seiko and give them 28-days to resolve the claim or issue a summons in the Small Claims Court against Royal Mail (not Border Force). Explain that you took out additional insurance etc. etc.
In the three times I’ve used the Small Claims Court I’ve found it very fair and sympathetic to individuals battling medium/large companies. I should add that it’s almost 20-years since the last claim. I had two no-shows, therefore won by default, and won the other case (which was actually the first of them), in about 20-minutes when I was able to prove the main defence statement knowingly false. To say the judge was annoyed with the company would be an understatement.
This sounds like excellent advice to me.
How bad was the damage to be quoted over £1000 by Seiko to repair the watch?
Yes-same. Are there any costs associated with the small claims court??
Sounds like the investigation and review by the Postal Review Panel was handled by Paula Venells.
Seriously I’m with Skier I know it’s a PITA but Small Claims which can be done online and is relatively straightforward and I suspect you’ll get a decision in your favour even if it gets that far.
If you drop your car off for service then it gets damaged whilst on way from point A to point B whilst in dealerships possession its on them, same must be true of PO you entered into a contract with SLA the moment you tapped your card on their terminal and it spat out a receipt providing you met your side of the agreement which you clearly did, they have also admitted errors on their side by shipping to incorrect destination.
https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-...ney/make-claim
Alternatively contact Daily Mail who would love this right now.
Last edited by TKH; 25th January 2024 at 10:02.
Scratches on the case but it is diashield coated meaning a new case required
OK gents thanks for the advice, I'll go down the Small Claims court route after sending them a letter first.
I suspect if/when it got to court they wouldn't bother turning up
I’m sorry to hear of this Ryan. It annoys me that in reality they know they have messed up, they know that it was damaged while the package was under their responsibility and it’s almost a “computer says no” response.
I know it’s a hassle but small claims court is the only option with this. I hope you win, I’m rooting for you!
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That’s pretty amazing, Diashield is very robust normally..
Cheers..
Jase
I gather Border Force just carry out random checks or is it on certain value items? I’ve never had a watch checked when bringing into N.I from mainland GB, or when sending (at least to my knowledge). Hope you get a positive outcome to this.
Not in my limited experience and once scratched there is no way to buff it out. A wholly useless technology and once which would rule out ownership of any Seiko whose case has been so treated.
Martin
They also cut the lining of the presentation box, so i wonder if the package triggered a drug inspection, maybe it was near another one that contained narcotics (I can assure you my package contained a Seiko and nowt else!). It seems they were very deliberate in using a knife to cut the lining of the presentation box to examine what was behind it, and they removed the Seiko from the plastic wrap I'd put it in (and it was also fastened into the box using 2 hooks that the box has to keep the watch in place). When they put the watch back in they didn't wrap it back up again (although left the plastic wrapping loose in the box!) and didn't use the hooks to fasten it in place. So it would have just been shaken left right and centre in their system.
Testament to the movement that there were no timekeeping errors and the actual damage was slight on one side of the case (which shows Diashield did its job as it would have surely taken a battering), however I sold the watch as mint and the quote from Seiko to restore it to mint was a new case. As it stands I'm out of pocket as I provided compensation to the buyer pretty much straight away, the aim was to redress this with the insurance but it seems they aren't having any of it. But the advice to go down the small claims route is a good one, I'll do that.
Puts you off buying anything with Diasheild if a watch moving around within its box and having a few scratches requires a new case.
It doesn't require a new case unless you wanted to restore it to mint. In this case that's what the claim was for so the watch was restored to the condition it was in on posting.
But you can't refinish out minor scratches however the Diashield prevents scratches and I reckon had this been a non diashield watch the damage to the case would have been much more extensive.
Crazy that Seiko cannot refinish diasheild cases with minor scratches and the only option if you want the watch looking as new is a replacement case.
Going to be expensive come service time for anyone wanting a watch refinished/ polished.
What was in the box that could've damaged the Diashield to that extent Ryan?
Just it bashing against the sides of the box in transit
Ok.
Just asking as your tale put me in mind of this - https://www.fratellowatches.com/why-...e-116520/#gref
Borderforce there stabbed the box with a sharp instrument several times over.
We have done an investigation and found we are not at fault seems a standard approach from Royal Mail
That would probably be the first line I would say in the small claims court
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
One of the reasons I got the SLA043 with ever brilliant steel as it has no coating.
My expectation would be for the insurance to cover the parcel from the moment RM accepts it to the moment they deliver it. That they don't think they caused the damage is irrelevant, it was damaged while in their care, while in the transit they provide.
"A man of little significance"
One of the reasons I got the SLA043 with ever brilliant steel as it has no coating.
There is a small charge for the Small Claims Court but it’s minor. Keep a record of, and receipts for, all of your costs as you can add these to your claim. Make it clear in your letter to RM that you’ll be claiming for costs incurred. Don’t get lazy/frustrated and drop the case, companies rely on this. My guess is that on the day they won’t contest it and you’ll win without having to plead your case. That said, be well prepared to do so.
For two of my cases I prepared 3 x evidence packs in folders: 1 for the court/judge, 1 for the defence and 1 for me. These contained photocopies of all relevant documents and photographs. Of course, I also had the originals. I don’t know for certain but I got the impression that the judge appreciated this as a sign that I’d taken it seriously and put in some effort.
Good luck.
Royal Mail are generally very good but if it goes wrong try getting anything out of them.
Good luck Ryan. Hope you can sort them out.
PS "Diashield" damaged by moving around in the box??
Not much shielding being done.
Cheers,
Neil.
They probably saw Seiko on the box and thought it must be worth £100 tops! Hope you get it sorted, pretty shabby. I’ve had Seiko SKX’s in the past delivered by Creation (who I now never use) jangling about loose in an envelope with the thinnest bit of padding, and apart from micro scratches on the centre of the Jubilee bracelet they were perfect, so you were very unlucky imho! Mind you if an SKX lost or gained less than a minute a day I was delighted, a bit different with a decent modern offering!
I think the next step is for them to send round a bully boy Post Office investigator to tell you that if you mess with the Royal Mail you'll end up bankrupt and in prison.
Actually they are not so tough if faced with determined opponents. In a former job I succeeded in getting our company's full claim of circa £300k out of them in a dispute over business postage. I expected them to be a lot more robust than they turned out to be (though to be be fair they were in the wrong and probably realised that).
I wonder if it's possible that suspicions were aroused by why a package containing what they probably assumed was a cheap watch was insured to a high value. Could be why they cut the lining open.
I'm just puzzled as to why a parcel travelling within the UK would come under the scrutiny of UK Border Force.
I've received a few international parcels that have arrived with the UKBF tape on them, but in the thousands I've received from the UK there's never been one.
I once sold a Beretta 92fs Co2 plinker on here that i sent rmsd to Scotland. For some reason they routed it through N Ireland. You can imagine what border force in NI thought about that!! I was told it had been confiscated as they are illegal in NI. After various heated talks with them it finally found its way to the recipient... Probably a loss for someone that thought they'd have a new toy for nothing...
Have you actually tried this?
As the problem was with Royal Mail, I fail to see how Paula Venells (who headed up the Post Office) is relevant!
Presumably because, post-Brexit, Northern Ireland is regarded as being both inside and outside the UK for customs purposes.
I think it was an attempt at humour, as was the line about dealing with the investigation a few posts earlier. But you are correct that Royal Mail and Post Office are often wrongly thought as the same thing/mistaken for one another.
That UKBF got the parcel is understandable. That it opened it is more questionable as it was not coming from Ireland or anywhere else, and it was staying in the UK even if we dismiss the fact it should never have landed in front of them.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Nothing other than in the response Ryan received they also seem to be covering their arse and marking their own homework
my sincere apologies if I have caused you offence with my lighthearted comment.
Ryan don't give up.
No offence taken whatsoever! Just amused, as Saint-Just pointed out, at how often the Royal Mail and the Post Office are used interchangeably.
It's pretty rubbish, sadly.
I had a watch stolen in transit back to Switzerland for service years ago. RM said that it was safely passed over to their partner in EU to deliver , I challenged them repeatedly that they were under contract to see it delivered safely. I got nowhere and had to claim off my own insurance. Hope you have better luck mate.
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You scared me at the start because I read RM as Richard Mille :con_biggrin:
Glad you got it sorted, sorry it wasn't with Royal Mail. I would have gone all the way to small claims court before resorting to any insurance I might have had, out of principle.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Sounds like a nightmare, hope you get sorted with the Small Claims Court. Keep us posted with any developments.
I know. I literally pi55 myself every single time someone does this.
Honestly, how the ignorant peasants aren't au fait with the sale, break up and structural reorganisation of the previously state-owned single entity, I'll never know. Idiots!
I thought you are not able to take Royal mail to smalls claims court. Far as I am aware they chuck this at folk case study "Harold Stephen & Co Ltd v Post Office"
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Last edited by bokbok; 26th January 2024 at 00:05.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
I don't think they realise that not everyone knows absolutely everything about everything. You must try to think as they do and realise how frustrating their world must be dealing with us fallible mortals ;)
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