I received an email today from a British maker I’ve always admired announcing a new model. I won’t name them or show the photos as the mail only went to previous buyers in advance of a press release in a couple of weeks. Nice enough looking watch, and different from their previous offerings. Also a bit cheaper at £2,190. But, the engine powering this watch is a Seiko NH34. I’ve owned watches costing more with modified, or even stock, Swiss movements, and justified it by looking at other areas of the watch and ease of servicing etc, but my jaw dropped at this and I decided it was a no go from the start. I could never justify that amount for a watch with that movement, no matter what else it offered.
What do others think, do movements have a ceiling price and how much would you go to for a NH34 powered watch, assuming you liked everything else about it?
It's all relative I suppose, but no I wouldn't be paying 4 figures for a watch running a 50 quid Japanese auto movement.
The ceiling there for me is basically whatever the equivalent Seiko offering is - which I guess is mid to high hundreds.
At that price point I would expect, at minimum, the Sellita automatic which seems to have replaced the ubiquitous ETA 2824 as a reliable go-to for independents.
Perfectly good movement, but it’s the greed involved, and the implied contempt for their customer base, that offends. There’s just no way that they couldn’t make a respectable profit out of selling this watch for over £2,000 if it had an ETA or Sellita movement in it that would cost them maybe a couple of hundred quid. But no, they’re after screwing you over to make an extra £165 per unit.
In my view they think their customers are stupid, and if the punters pay this they will be proved right.
Doesn't really make a difference does it? Buyers of watches using an ETA2824 don't seem to worry about a ceiling price, vintage Tudor Subs, Modern IWC, Hublot and Breitling all can cost many times the price of the movement they house.
Originally Posted by chrisparker
It's the psychological jump though, from paying for a Swiss watch or a Japanese watch.
Ironically I probably get better timekeeping and reliability out of most of my modern Seiko watches. Without question they are at least on a par with the mid range (high street) Swiss watches. Just doesn't have the same ring though, the Swiss are traditionally known for producing the best watches and that's what carries over through the generations.
I don't particularly agree with it, but I have to admit I'd be more inclined to spend that sort of money on an ETA than a Seiko NH or equivalent Miyota. When checking spec on the boutique and start-ups, I check for a Swiss movement first and Sapphire glass second. Neither guarantees a great watch, but they both show that a little more expense has gone into the build.
Whoever it is doing this must be confident that WIS make-up very little of their customer base - and even then it seems very poorly judged: rightly-or-wrongly Seiko is a name associated with cheap quartz watches in most people's minds. There's no way I'd pay that kind of money for something with that movement in it.
English maker ..... cheaper than before ..... Roger Smith! Golly.
They are well aware that WIS make up the majority of their customer base. I doubt if many who don’t collect watches have ever heard of the brand.
British workers are trying to push their wages far higher at the moment so it wouldn't surprise me if a British manufacturer is trying to reduce their costs in other areas to keep their products at a certain price point. We do sometimes forget that watch manufacturing is global and some countries have far lower overheads than others.
funnily enough, I've also discussed earlofsodburys comment at the Grand Seiko boutique in London. He's right that in the UK we do associate Seiko watches with being cheap and accessible yet some Seiko models are overlapping the Grand Seiko price points. How Seiko plan on marketing and selling those in the UK I have no idea but it's certainly an interesting move.
finally chrisparkers point makes a lot of sense. At most price points the cost of a watch is rarely directly proportional to the price of the movement within it.
I don't think you can apply logic to the movement involved where the brand name has a significant impact on pricing but I baulked at buying an IWC MkXVIII in favour of awaiting the MkXX (although I subsequently cooled on that for other reasons) for similar reasoning.
I suspect my future purchases may lean towards in house movements but not sure I'm ready for the extra costs/hassle associated with them!
I think vintage is a different kettle of fish. But in terms of a manufacturer specifying a new watch today, that doesn't have its own in-house movements, the most obvious options would be:
1. a Japanese off-the shelf movement that might cost £30-50
2. a Swiss off-the shelf movement that might cost £175 up to a few hundred quid
- very ballpark numbers but I don't think hugely off.
If you go for the latter, and you're retailing the watch at £2k+ - selling direct rather than through dealers - that would still be a multiple of around ten on the movement cost. So where's the excuse for cheaping out? What does it do to your customers' resale prospects if they ever want to move the watch on?
It’s this “cheaping out” that got to me. In watches costing this amount, and more, I don’t mind an off the shelf movement, and I’m pretty sure that the makers probably spend more on these movements than the incremental cost the big boys spend on their in-house movements, it’s simple economies of scale. But going for the cheapest movement is a step too far.
I see the watch has been outed on other forums now, so here it is:
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Agree with the general sentiments regarding cheaping out, Sellita movements are a good alternative to ETA and that's what I prefer to see in watches costing more than a few hundred £. Easier to get parts for Sellita too, but how many small manufacturers really consider future ownership costs?
For the money touted for one of these I'd rather have 4 or 5 of Eddie's watches, which will probably all have equivalent or better movements in them.
Have to agree, possibly the movement in a £2K watch has been tweaked and adjusted to optimise? I`d certainly expect it. What you can`t overcome is the limitations regarding isochronism, not a strong point on the cheap Seiko movements. Sellita wins hands-down in this regard.
I’ll echo other peoples’ thoughts. I might just about accept an NH34 in a £1500 watch but over £2k, it has to be an SW200 or better.
Sure, if the watch is machined out of super hard titanium and has a silver dial and hand applied markers etc, then it raises the overall cost, but if that’s the case, increase the price of the watch by £100 and put in a movement that befits the rest of the care and attention that went into the rest of the manufacturing process.
Good looking watch to my eye, some real effort made with the design, subjective though that is. Another ~£250 for a movement with a bit more street cred seems a no-brainer, otherwise they are frankly sabotaging themselves.
It’s this “cheaping out” that got to me. In watches costing this amount, and more, I don’t mind an off the shelf movement, and I’m pretty sure that the makers probably spend more on these movements than the incremental cost the big boys spend on their in-house movements, it’s simple economies of scale. But going for the cheapest movement is a step too far.
I see the watch has been outed on other forums now, so here it is:
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As prices go up I think it’s natural to see improvements in all aspects of the watch, and that includes the movement.
It’s hard to be specific, but a 2824 SW200 for me means up to about £2000.
As it’s Schofield the thread is about, I very much like their bronze Beaters, however what stops me is cost. It isn’t movement per se, but also the cases have deliberate industrial finishing with machine marks. Once you abandon finesse, cool design and packaging is only worth so much.
Dave
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Interesting discussion. I’d certainly be put off spending 2 grand on a watch with the same movement as my £50 aliX beater. I already struggle to justify the difference in cost between this and my BB58, but at least that has world recognition, in house movement and a big name!
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What about Naoya Hida, 20k for an eta?
I think George Daniels’ use of ETA movements blows through that ceiling quite comfortably…
Last edited by Broussard; 30th December 2023 at 12:57.
I wouldn't pay mid hundreds for a nh movement watch. I'm happy to pay a few thousand for an ETA or sellita equipped watch
As an existing Schofield customer I do think it is an attempt to provide a unique watch at a lower price point for customers.
I don't believe it is any attempt to profiteer as they have been quite open (and always are) about their movements.
People used to say the same about an ETA movement but if we want lots of alternatives we can't expect in house movements always and also need to look beyond the movement sometimes. There are plenty of IWC watches with ETA movements in for example before they went in house and increased their prices accordingly.
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