GOV.UK Basic laws on historic tools

[bwest76]

This. See also if someone they interact with then goes on to commit an offence involving said item. They will be pilloried for not confiscating the item in question.

I’d also disagree that a large number of the public including veterans don’t trust the Police. Especially when a large number of veterans go on to serve in the Police.

I have seen the actions of several who joined the police,they sooned joined in the culture.
I always think of those who where Regimental Police and the things they got up to and imagine they are of the same mold.


https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/th...-farce.301217/

[bwest76]

The sub 3” folder and good reason defences don’t guarantee anything unfortunately. People have been successfully nicked for sub 3” cutting edge slip joint where the total blade length was over 3”. One guy even ended up doing time for carrying a brand new Stanley knife still in the packaging (along with a load of other diy stuff) in a shopping bag on his way home from the shop he bought it from. That one made the Law Gazzette a few years ago.

That is my point they law is clear its cutting edge.

Dont take anything to the H of P,school,football or pub thats common sense.


Yet in Sardina lots of people at night, in town where carrying traditional knives.

Inclding one lass who took hers out in a bar (customer not staff) and was cutting up bits of cheese/meat for me.

I was the one who was surprised,no one else gave a secound look.

[blackal]

The sub 3” folder and good reason defences don’t guarantee anything unfortunately. People have been successfully nicked for sub 3” cutting edge slip joint where the total blade length was over 3”. One guy even ended up doing time for carrying a brand new Stanley knife still in the packaging (along with a load of other diy stuff) in a shopping bag on his way home from the shop he bought it from. That one made the Law Gazzette a few years ago.

but - you don't need a reason to carry that knife in public - they are legal by their physical nature.

[Saint-Just]

I don't believe that a SAK is classed as illegal (if the blade it contains is less than 3 inches long) for the reason that it qualifes as a folding pocketknife.

R

I think you misread my post

[Neil.C]

I had a run in with the law regarding knives that I posted about on here 16 (!) years ago.

Basically, lock knife confiscated - allowed to keep machete.

https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...topped+coppers

[Mj2k]

Unless you are 'profiled' (admittedly not police)

Going through Customs/Security departing a UK ferry port - On a motorcycle:

"Do you have any knives in your luggage?"

"Yes, I have a multitool and a non-locking folding knife"

"Can you show me, please"

So - you have to guess where where in your panniers and topbox, and dig them out...........

When I point out that each of the motorhomes and caravans have a huge block of kitchen knives, and "what do you do about that?"..................

They get all mumbly-grumpy.

That is a very interesting view, hadn’t crossed my mind before but 100% illogical of them.

[bwest76]

I had a run in with the law regarding knives that I posted about on here 16 (!) years ago.

Basically, lock knife confiscated - allowed to keep machete.

https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...topped+coppers

Wow,retaliation for sounding your horn.
You were lucky, anything in a foot well looks like its there for quick reponse.

[Groundrush]

That is my point they law is clear its cutting edge.

but - you don't need a reason to carry that knife in public - they are legal by their physical nature.

All true, but the plod will still nick you for it, if they can.

Don’t get me wrong, I often carry a SAK but the fact is, the law is sometimes incorrectly applied and if it is incorrectly applied to you, you’d better have a good lawyer.

[bwest76]

Unless you are 'profiled' (admittedly not police)

Going through Customs/Security departing a UK ferry port - On a motorcycle:

"Do you have any knives in your luggage?"

"Yes, I have a multitool and a non-locking folding knife"

"Can you show me, please"

So - you have to guess where where in your panniers and topbox, and dig them out...........

When I point out that each of the motorhomes and caravans have a huge block of kitchen knives, and "what do you do about that?"..................

They get all mumbly-grumpy.

It happened to me and everyone else in the line at Plymouth it was chaos causing massive disruption.

A fisherman had his fillet knife taken, everyone was aware that all the motorhomes had a full stack of kitchen knives inside.



My SAK is always in my bike jacket pocket ive done everything on my old bike with it from cut the end of perished fuel line to tighten screws.

When asked I gave a positive yes (nothing to hide) whipped it out showed the blade didnt lock pointed out it was less than 3" and legal.

They said OK we can see you know what you are doing and let me through.

I had another UK legal folding knife in my case for food prep but didnt mention it so as not to muddy the water.

[burnside]

I have seen the actions of several who joined the police,they sooned joined in the culture.
I always think of those who where Regimental Police and the things they got up to and imagine they are of the same mold.


https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/th...-farce.301217/

It sounds like you’re judging the whole of the Police Force on the basis of a few and due to some bad experiences with the RMP. Which seems a tad unfair. I’ve worked with a lot of Police Officers / a wide cross section of the Armed Forces including MOD Civil Servants. Met some extremely competent and professional and likeable individuals. Very few idiots / jobsworth / untrustworthy types.

I’d trust them far more than politicians and journalists / big business types. I see two Nurses have just been sentenced to a number of years in prison for drugging their patients. By your logic we should condemn all who work in the nursing profession.

[blackal]

All true, but the plod will still nick you for it, if they can.

Don’t get me wrong, I often carry a SAK but the fact is, the law is sometimes incorrectly applied and if it is incorrectly applied to you, you’d better have a good lawyer.

Ah - I get what you are saying.

[ralphy]

First off, it would be up to a police officer as to deciding whether you were carrying a knife without good intention. Then it would be up to the CPS to decide if there was good reason to prosecute you for it and even then it would be up to the Court to decide if you were guilty of committing an offence.

R

[burnside]

First off, it would be up to a police officer as to deciding whether you were carrying a knife without good intention. Then it would be up to the CPS to decide if there was good reason to prosecute you for it and even then it would be up to the Court to decide if you were guilty of committing an offence.

R

This.

[Beanie]

For your information the reason a butter knife can be held as an offence is because it fits the definition of a fixed knife. The law is blind and mostly dumb.
However the officer who made the arrest wasn't. I don't have any details but would presume it was used as a reason for the arrest, not the cause for wanting to arrest him, unless the owner was so drunk/drugged that he started to threaten people with a butter knife.

Words have meaning. Cutting edge is a case in point. Yes you can try to be clever with it but in the case you envisaged, a 6" blade is a fixed knife regardless of the length of the cutting edge, and regardless if there is a implement at the end that folds back.
Because the law says 3" cutting edge, makers of EDC knife will build therewith a 3" cutting edge to maximise the useful part of the blade. that means the size of the blade from the axle will usually be 5 to 10 mm longer.

I really should have looked into the butter knife thing more closely. It appears that there was no handle and that the part that would have been covered by the handle was inherently dangerous by being sharp or pointed (Booker V DPP), so more of a shank and eminently sensible that the conviction stood.
I wasn't envisioning a 6" fixed blade knife, I was asking if the poster knew of a folding knife with a blade that was 6" but a cutting edge of 3" and was speculating that it may be a legal carry as it would be a folding knife with a cutting edge of 3". I can't see any mention of overall length, hence the speculation. I would be grateful if someone could correct me. Why someone would want one I have no idea, nor why one would be manufactured. It would clearly defeat the object of the legislation but we were talking about the difference between length of blade and cutting edge. I take your point about the distance from the axle to the start of the cutting edge and it being typically 5-10mm which is what one would expect, and perhaps why the legislators talked about cutting edge rather than blade length. It wasn't an attempt to be clever, more an exploration of words, which as you rightly point out, have meaning.

[Saint-Just]

I really should have looked into the butter knife thing more closely. It appears that there was no handle and that the part that would have been covered by the handle was inherently dangerous by being sharp or pointed (Booker V DPP), so more of a shank and eminently sensible that the conviction stood.
I wasn't envisioning a 6" fixed blade knife, I was asking if the poster knew of a folding knife with a blade that was 6" but a cutting edge of 3" and was speculating that it may be a legal carry as it would be a folding knife with a cutting edge of 3". I can't see any mention of overall length, hence the speculation. I would be grateful if someone could correct me. Why someone would want one I have no idea, nor why one would be manufactured. It would clearly defeat the object of the legislation but we were talking about the difference between length of blade and cutting edge. I take your point about the distance from the axle to the start of the cutting edge and it being typically 5-10mm which is what one would expect, and perhaps why the legislators talked about cutting edge rather than blade length. It wasn't an attempt to be clever, more an exploration of words, which as you rightly point out, have meaning.

I understood your point regarding the 6" folding blade. What I meant was that at 6" you can grab it by the blunt 3" (about the size of the handle of a small folding knife) and have a 3" fixed knife with a handle dangling below your hand.
But your initial point is that indeed there is no limit set by law to the max length overall of the blade. Which is where the court system comes in, as ultimately if it came to that it would be left to their appreciation.
My guess is that 1) the circumstances of the discovery and your subsequent attitude with the police would play a very strong part and 2) the knife itself whose design and intended use would either justify the extra length or not.

As an example, when we took part in designing a UK specific EDC with Sal Glesser's Spyderco on another forum [the UKPK] (that was 2004, almost 20 years ago), we chose a blade length of 3"from the tip to the handle, i.e. including the ricasso. The 5 mm we lost in cutting edge was a price we were prepared to pay to avoid any ambiguity in claiming the exemption from section 139 of the CJA 88, especially as the very shape of the blade can be perceived as more threatening that a well known SAK.

[Enoch]

There are other implements to do that kind of stuff - Tuff-Cutt scissors as an example.

Shows how little you know of working around horses, and livestock. My wife’s a farmers daughter and knows more about animals than I’ll ever know.

She laughed her head and the rolled her eyes at the suggestion of scissors.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Shows how little you know of working around horses, and livestock. My wife’s a farmers daughter and knows more about animals than I’ll ever know.

She laughed her head and the rolled her eyes at the suggestion of scissors.

I never claimed to know about working around horses and livestock?

[Enoch]

I never claimed to know about working around horses and livestock?

Ok…you said there were other implements to do that kind of stuff. According to my wife you are wrong, and a knife is the best tool for the types of tasks when working with livestock.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Ok…you said there were other implements to do that kind of stuff. According to my wife you are wrong, and a knife is the best tool for the types of tasks when working with livestock.

Then in this case I am wrong.

[Enoch]

Then in this case I am wrong.

same as me when I argue or contradict her. I just accept that I’m always wrong and move on🤔🤔

[Chris_in_the_UK]

same as me when I argue or contradict her. I just accept that I’m always wrong and move on樂樂

With you on that!

[learningtofly]

This seems to be contradictory in many ways. Many Leatherman multitools lock, and are therefore illegal to carry without good reason. "just in case" (Hello, Ally!) is not a good reason.
Most Leatherman also have at least one blade, even the non locking ones. That makes them a knife.
A SAK is by definition a knife. The "Swiss Army tools" (Victorinox Swisstools) all have locking blades IIINM.

So in most cases, the tool that meets your normal day to day needs is illegal to carry (wgr), whereas a simple penknife is. I agree with Ralphy though that a classic SAK will prove more useful than a simple blade in many cases.

Yes, it was use case issue that I was trying to highlight in particular. I have a few, anyway, and they’re far more useful than a standalone knife.

[bwest76]

Lambfoot pattern pocket knife


This is one of the most famous Sheffield patterns with a long history. The lambfoot blade with its straight edge is popular with farmers and amongst its other uses is the trimming of lambs' hooves!

[stooo]

That’s useful each and every day.

[Beanie]

I understood your point regarding the 6" folding blade. What I meant was that at 6" you can grab it by the blunt 3" (about the size of the handle of a small folding knife) and have a 3" fixed knife with a handle dangling below your hand.
But your initial point is that indeed there is no limit set by law to the max length overall of the blade. Which is where the court system comes in, as ultimately if it came to that it would be left to their appreciation.
My guess is that 1) the circumstances of the discovery and your subsequent attitude with the police would play a very strong part and 2) the knife itself whose design and intended use would either justify the extra length or not.

As an example, when we took part in designing a UK specific EDC with Sal Glesser's Spyderco on another forum [the UKPK] (that was 2004, almost 20 years ago), we chose a blade length of 3"from the tip to the handle, i.e. including the ricasso. The 5 mm we lost in cutting edge was a price we were prepared to pay to avoid any ambiguity in claiming the exemption from section 139 of the CJA 88, especially as the very shape of the blade can be perceived as more threatening that a well known SAK.

I was indeed speculating and it's clear that you have some knowledge in these matters.
As you say, depending on the explanation and circumstances it may be regarded as an offensive weapon Per se, I can't think of a reason to have a blade that long other than for stabbing? I may be wrong and look forward to someone enlightening me.

[Saint-Just]

I learnt "on the job", so to speak
The argument for a blade designed for stabbing is more in the tip than in the actual length. The normal reason for a long blade is precisely the length go the cutting edge. As an example,


Please remember that at all time I consider a knife as a tool (those classified as weapons per se are mostly illegal to even own in the UK, although there are exceptions like antiques (say, sword canes) or sports (kenjutsu))
The best example is of course the kitchen, where you have loads of different knives, of different blade size and blade shape.

It is however perfectly possible to use a tool as a weapon. In which case even your keys can get you into trouble.

In the case you are suggesting the premise is you have a blade longer than 3", which imply you have a good reason to start with (otherwise carrying it is illegal regardless of whether you use it or not).
Now an example is me taking my Leuku to clear the footpaths when the brambles are starting to obstruct them.

[bwest76]

You are talking good and understandable reason.

Whats this place coming to.

[Reeny]

I always thought that the 3-inch rule is because longer blades with pointed tips can reach the heart.
Whereas shorter blades are less lethal, and folding blades have a tendency to fold back on themselves if they hit any type of resistance (e.g. ribs)
This may be an old wives tale, so I am happy to be corrected.

[hogthrob]

I think the law is rather missing the point (pun intended). Stabbings are the main problem, and you don't need a cutting edge at all for that 'activity', just a pointed end. Am I correct in thinking that a folding knife with an unsharpened 6" blade would be legal carry?


Edit: I see that this has already been discussed.

[Beanie]

I learnt "on the job", so to speak
The argument for a blade designed for stabbing is more in the tip than in the actual length. The normal reason for a long blade is precisely the length go the cutting edge. As an example,


Please remember that at all time I consider a knife as a tool (those classified as weapons per se are mostly illegal to even own in the UK, although there are exceptions like antiques (say, sword canes) or sports (kenjutsu))
The best example is of course the kitchen, where you have loads of different knives, of different blade size and blade shape.

It is however perfectly possible to use a tool as a weapon. In which case even your keys can get you into trouble.

In the case you are suggesting the premise is you have a blade longer than 3", which imply you have a good reason to start with (otherwise carrying it is illegal regardless of whether you use it or not).
Now an example is me taking my Leuku to clear the footpaths when the brambles are starting to obstruct them.

Ha, I've seen a few people chased down the street by a guy waving one of those!

[Cornholio]

are not lock knives (they do not have a button, spring or catch that you have to use to fold the knife)

The wording is a bit vague.

A slipjoint knife with a cutting edge no longer than 3 inches is considered legal as it does not lock. The spring merely supplies a modicum of resistance.

However, the blade of a slipjoint interacts with the spring whilst folding and unfolding. Therefore, it could be argued that you can't fold the knife without using the spring. Therefore, it has a spring that you have to use to fold the knife...

Hopefully I'm just being paranoid.

[Kingstepper]

The wording is a bit vague.

A slipjoint knife with a cutting edge no longer than 3 inches is considered legal as it does not lock. The spring merely supplies a modicum of resistance.

However, the blade of a slipjoint interacts with the spring whilst folding and unfolding. Therefore, it could be argued that you can't fold the knife without using the spring. Therefore, it has a spring that you have to use to fold the knife...

Hopefully I'm just being paranoid.

Think you are! You’re overcoming the spring, not using it.
Anyway, here’s my EDC - fine for opening parcels and such like: -



Whole thing open is ~3 inches.

[sweets]

Because I work with wood (and a lot of old tools) I have a knife in one of the pockets in my work trousers, all the time.
And quite often a mini plane as well.
I use the knife most days. Opening stuff, whittling stuff, scraping stuff off things, shaving parted edges, etc etc.
It is just a portable tool, and there are many more dangerous ones kept in the workshop.
The blade is not necessarily the most used part of it, but it is used often enough
Most of the time it is a Festool branded SAK, but sometimes it is a Leatherman. I specifically bought a Juice XE6 (now discontinued) because it is UK legal, but it is also just not man enough for a lot of jobs (the pliers are very flakey), so it is often my old faithful Wave, which is not "legal" for locking reasons.
I do not seek to go out to public places carrying this, but at the same time I am not changing my trousers to pop into suppliers, the garage etc.
I also reason that is is safer to have fewer of these things and carry them about, rather than, for instance, leave them permanently in the car, and have the risk of them being nicked.
The law is another one of those that is clearly very poorly conceived and worded, as there are many smaller knives made illegal for being fixed blade or locking, despite being a lot less "dangerous" than a non-locking one at full legal length.
For instance, I have a couple of locking Opinels, and because otherwise the blade has no detente at all, the locking ones are simply safer for the user.
Also, a nice little Kershaw Shuffle, which has only a 6cm blade, but it locks, so should not be carried.

[oldoakknives]

I've normally carried a pocket knife since I was about 12, just something I've always done, and they've come in handy many times over the years.

Current legal carry with watch for scale.


And some others that I carry from time to time. All UK legal carry. (the CRKT CEO is a special non locking edition)

[PickleB]

I have several knives that are confined to the house and premises these days...including this monster: