Reply With QuoteDoing a great job.
Naive and arrogant to think England should be blowing away everyone they play anyway.
No manager gets everything right. Judgement calls always open to challenge.
It's coming home ......
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What we thinking then, chaps?
Some hate him, some love him, some are in between.
I am still of the opinion that he's yet to beat a team equal-to or better-than England at a major tournament finals which you must do to win a trophy.
That said the players love him and he makes them want to play for the shirt which has barely happened in my lifetime (I was small when Bobby Robson was in charge and I'm not sure it's happened since). The fear of playing for the shirt is also gone under him.
I am also of the opinion that the France WC quarter was the closest he's come to a tactical masterclass in a big game & he can't be blamed for that defeat more than about 25-30%.
On balance, especially as I don't know who would be up for replacing Southgate who also would be a clear tactical improvement I'd still be happy for him to go to the next World Cup, then reassess. I also don't like changing manager between Euros and World Cup. It has to be a 4 year cycle.
Doing a great job.
Naive and arrogant to think England should be blowing away everyone they play anyway.
No manager gets everything right. Judgement calls always open to challenge.
It's coming home ......
Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk
I'm still grateful that we have an England team that, on a good day, plays like a functional club team. One that doesn't, when faced with quality, offer half a match of what feels like desperate, faithless, defence. Win or lose, I enjoy watching England play under Southgate.
I like him. Anyone who can ensure the endless, relentless, ridiculous media scrutiny and has the team behind him gets my vote. Bonus that he is an ex England player himself. I hope he leads us to some successes.
Not for me .
Complete Yes man . Absolutely no bravery to
Pick from the most talented England squad in years . Gets a relatively easy ride from the media for getting to latter stages in tournaments without ever actually threatening to win them .
He comes out with some utter tripe too . Says he won’t pick players who aren’t performing for their clubs yet consistently picks players who aren’t performing for their clubs .
Who's he not picking? Who's he picking that he shouldn't?Originally Posted by thegoat
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Not picking Sterling for one .
Continuing with Maguire and Henderson is poor . Putting Alexander Arnold in midfield is shoehorning him in for no benefit . Sticking with a painfully out of form Rashford when there are better options .
Sterling is playing well but doesn't get the nod ahead of Foden or Saka surely?
In the last serious game v Italy, neither Arnold nor Henderson started, Rashford scored and Maguire has gone on to be Man U best player, this last 6 weeks. Who would have been ahead of him Guehi, Dunk? Debatable.
Phillips played, but you don't include him in your list for some reason
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Last edited by xxnick1975; 18th November 2023 at 19:35.
Different roles Ryan .
You could put Sterling up top all day long . He’s a bigger threat than Rashford, not as selfish and is playing very well . But Waistcoat trots out the lines that you need to be playing well for your club then picks Rashford who can’t buy a goal at the minute .
Makes no sense
I'm no expert but after the mess he made of the Euro finals I would of finished him there and then, he just didn't give the guys taking the penalties a chance, they were cold, surely he should of had them on for some time to get in the grove, warm up ? but like I say I'm no expert.
England will be playing,
Four
Four
Fuckin
Two
Don't give two hoots until an actual comp starts. Boring as hell and annoying it interrupts the domestic league.
Will they? 4/2/3/1 mostly now
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Last edited by xxnick1975; 18th November 2023 at 22:59.
Tight game between France and Gibraltar this evening
Saka came on at 70 minutes and his was saved so not convinced by your reasoning
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And folk call womans footie for mismatched games!
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Going against popular opinion, I like Maguire. Not a Utd fan, far from it.
Something going on there with him.
However you get him in an England shirt, and with Stones as CB pairing, they’re almost safe as houses.
Poor club form but plays well for country? One of my all time greats -John Barnes. Unplayable in acres shirt, questionable for England…? What’s one to do. It’s all opinions….
You’ve obviously never seen “Mike Basset, England manager” 🙄
Not bearpit. Watch the language please...
The last two games have been absolute pony. Maguire….it’s all been said already. Grealish is terrible, so easy to play against. Never ever beats a man, rarely plays great passes and doesn’t score enough goals. You know he’s going to cut back inside every single time.
The Trent experiment has got to be over now, surely. He’s not an international midfielder. He had zero impact against a p*ss poor team and he’s never going to play there in a tournament knockout game so what’s the point?
Saka and Rashford have been garbage this season. I’m now being biased but I do watch Gordon play every week and he’s on fire, much more effective and threatening than Saka, Grealish and Rashford.
Watkins isn’t international quality.
Foden and Lewis played well though.
England are just so stagnant, do any of the forward line know how to move and string some quick passing together.
McGuire, he just makes me so nervous every time he gets the ball…
Southgate just said Trent was excellent in midfield. He absolutely wasn’t. He was anonymous.
Well thank goodness the internationals are over until March. With England having already qualified these 2 matches were never going to amount to much- players worried about injuries etc.
Foden has been the best player in both games - issue with him is he is very good in many areas but perhaps not outstanding in any. Maybe if City work with him on being a bit more ruthless in the final third then he would be world class.
Saka still not properly fit, Grealish likewise I think. Lewis looked decent although not sure where he'd fit in. Guehi was good as well I thought. Maguire, goodness me how does that lad still get in? Olly Watkins didn't really have his strengths played to as he likes to get in behind the defenders. In reality Ivan Toney is likely to get in the squad as Kane's backup/impact from the bench.
Bellingham definitely missed over the 2 games.
That was truly awful, luckily I'd recorded it so watched the majority on forward wind (which got quicker and quicker as the match went on).
I fear we have become too reliant on Bellingham and Kane.
Sterling should've been in the squad, he's on great form and would have been hungry to prove a point. He has a history of making a decisive impact in major tournaments.
Looking at the group overall though, I think we'd all have taken; beat Italy home and away, top the group and be seeded, before it started.
As for Southgate's record, you have to compare it to previous England managers and then it looks outstanding. Yes he's had a wealth of attacking talent to choose from but some previous squads have had more quality and depth across the midfield and defence.
The team have played well and raised their game for 3 major tournaments in a row now, I don't think any other England manager could say the same. Even Alf Ramsey got the sack after failing to qualify for the 1974 World Cup and Bobby Robson's England lost all 3 group games at Euro 88.
Under Southgate's reign we've beaten Spain (away), Italy (home and away), Germany (in a major tournament) and Belgium, all in competitive games. We've also reached a final and semi final in major tournaments.
Admittedly the manner of the defeat to Croatia in 2018 and draw / penalty loss to Italy in 2021 were very disappointing, however, the performance in the 2022 Quarter Final loss against France was much improved. France just had more quality in their first XI but we ran them very close.
Last edited by watchcollector1; 21st November 2023 at 07:43.
I get your point about who he’s beaten during his reign, however it could be argued that for a lot of his tenure he’s benefited from facing the weakest iteration of those nations national teams for the the past decade.
I get that but the reality is that every time we've played a top team in the latter stages of a major tournament we've lost. Yes we played well against France but we lost. These games aren't for playing, they're for winning. It's not good enough to have "ran them very close". He has definitely taken the team, the squad, the set up and the overall relationships with the fans and the media to the next level but you can't hide from the fact we're still losers.
Looking to the 2024 Euros; Spain are in transition, Italy we've beaten home and away, Germany are poor, so it's only really France that are to be worried about. However, if we play a spine of Stones (and Maguire obviously, FFS), Rice (as a 6), Bellingham (as an 8), Foden (as a 10) and Kane then suddenly France fear us. But not if we continue to be cautious. Southgate surely won't be offered another tournament and surely he must know that. So go for it. Let these players do what they're capable of. If he doesn't he won't remembered for the good things I've mentioned above, he'll be remembered for wasting the best group of talent we've possibly ever had. Just like Martinez at Belgium, he led the best group of players Belgium has ever had and won precisely nowt.
I think he is pretty bad. Yes, the last 2 tournaments England have gone far but they got an easy route and should have done better with the chance they had. His team selection is all over, just picking his favourite players over players in top form.
All i can add is the game last night is two hours of my life i will never get back.
I FEEL LIKE I'M DIAGONALLY PARKED IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE
I get that, but on the other hand you look at the Under 21's team winning the European Championship and can't help but think that'll be a world-beating team in a few years if they stick together. However players will come in and out of form over the next few years and if the manager only picks 'inform' players the team never really gets to gel.
A winning team is rarely made of the best individual players in their position, it's always the best group of players that work as a team.
Had they have been eligible, Alexis Mac Allister and Emi Martinez wouldn't have got into the England squad for the 2022 World Cup, yet they won it. Which goes to show picking the best individual players of the moment doesn't guarantee success.
"Should have done better with the chance they had" could be the tag line to any of England's major tournaments since 66.
Out of interest how would you rate previous England managers in comparison to Southgate?
It kind of helps when you have possibly the greatest player ever in your team too.
Both of those players would get into the England squad.
Martinez is better than Pickford , who is actually incredibly poor for club and country and Macilster is a better option than Phillips by the fact he can actually run around for a full match
But you’re right under Southgate they’d be left out all the time.
Not too sure what the Trent in CM haters are getting upset about. I thought he was outstanding against Malta with his range of passing and positivity. Always the progressive pass and rarely gave it away. Less impactful against N Macedonia, granted, but without Kane or Bellingham whose movement he’’ll know far better.
He effectively plays there for LFC a lot of the time now - pushing up alongside Mac Allister now and last season too with Fabinho. He offers something nobody else does and is growing into the role.
Ironically it was Southgate who tried him there first but it was before he was asked to do it week in week out so it failed. A year or two later Klopp asks him to do it and suddenly he’s the genius.
Of all GS’s gambles and faults putting Trent in midfield is not one to criticise him for and, personally, I’d rather go into a big match with him there than Phillips. We’ve been crying out for a more positive outlook from Gareth. This is a subtle shift towards that.
Apols for lack of apostrophes where merited - for some reason when I post via tapatalk it deletes apostrophes!
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I'd be outstanding in CM against Malta FFS!
He was anonymous against Macedonia whereas if he was this so-called amazing midfielder he'd be running that game. Your comparison with Phillips is incorrect as they play completely different positions in midfield and are asked to do completely different things. Rice, Bellingham and Foden all play before a fullback plays in midfield. I don't dislike him, he just isn't the best defender and isn't good enough to play in midfield. People (Liverpool fans) want him to play for England because 'he's the best defender in the weeerld' when actually he's a liability most of the time and responsible for a hell of a lot of goals Liverpool concede by being regularly out of position.
I don't think anyone thinks he's the best defender. All the Liverpool fans I know tend to appreciate him for what he is, rather than what he's not, and the team is built with that in mind. Obviously that's harder to do with England as, to a degree, GS gets what he's given.
Phillips is a perfectly acceptable player, but it's him in the team that leaves us without a progressive passer and, given he can't get a game at the moment, the CM space opens up for Trent, who I thought showed enough with his passing (taking out about 5 players with his first moment when he found Rashford), and positional awareness and ability in tight spaces against Malta to suggest he could do it against better opposition too.
The N. Macedonia game was different because Watkins just doesn't make the same runs as Kane, and even then there was the odd moment with Saka that looked intuitive and useful.
It's the Liverpool evidence that suggests more, to me, that he's up to it though. We'll see at the weekend, of course, against the very best opponents although even Liverpool have to change slightly to counter City so maybe he'll be asked back into his more traditional position with Endo starting?
[EDIT] - Interestingly I've just seen this which analyses the performance against Malta in detail and covers bits of N Macedonia and what he does with LFC too. A decent body of evidence to back up what I've been saying. Be interested in thoughts.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...gsaw-6x26tfgzh
Last edited by tobywatches; 23rd November 2023 at 13:19. Reason: Found article analysing the subject
Wait, what ?
A Liverpool supporting journalist bigging up a Liverpool player ?
No way .
Man of The Match v Malta ?
OK .
Haha, you couldn't make it up!
Content Writer
Anfield Index
[COLOR=var(--color-text-low-emphasis)][COLOR=var(--color-text-secondary)][COLOR=var(--color-text-secondary)]Sep 2015 - Sep 2021 6 years 1 month[/COLOR][/COLOR]
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[COLOR=var(--artdeco-reset-typography-get-color-black-90)]Opinion piece writer, tactical analyst and podcaster for Anfield Index.
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GS needs options in that position, hence why he's giving TAA a good run.
KP doesn't get a game at his club. JH is playing village league. If Rice gets injured, whos coming in as a deeper midfielder?
Connor G and JWP are better further up the pitch. Ross Barkley? Stranger things have happened and the way he's playing at Luton, you never know
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Or John stones and Maguire and Dunk at centre back?
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So you can't be a good judge of a player if you support the team they play for? What about the analysis he wrote? What about all the other articles he's written paying homage to the qualities of the like of Guehi, Gallagher, Gordon, Smith-Rowe, Trafford, Eze, Olisé, Camavinga, Costa, Hwang, Fornals, Ederson, Haaland, Colwill and, yes, Curtis Jones? Maybe he wanted to work in footy journalism cos he was a fan of the sport? I don't know many fans of the sport who don't have a team. I absolutely despise the idea that professionals can't be professional because they support a team. The accusation drives me up the wall. I have commentated on my team being relegated and you go into professional mode because you're found out bloody quickly if you don't.
Hamzah's analysis in that TAA piece is sound. I asked for opinions not childish suggestions questioning his professionalism. I guess I thought the usually fairly intelligent people who discuss watches on this site could also put aside their allegiances and analyse the footy without rose-tinted specs. How wrong I was.
Last edited by tobywatches; 23rd November 2023 at 22:08.
OK , his analysis, IMHO, was skewed . Arnold wasn’t even the best midfielder on the pitch,never mind MOTM . Southgate has shoehorned him into this role because he takes a good dead ball and occasionally pings a Hollywood pass 70 yards. His positioning is dreadful, his awareness is lacking and he struts around the pitch like prime performance Pirlo.
You talked about his defence splitting pass that took out 5 Maltese players( ironically also mentioned in the journos article) yet failed to mention his early passing being wayward to an embarrassing degree. (Also not highlighted in the column) .
He’s a good footballer but he’s not good enough to displace Walker or James at right back so Southgate tries to fit him in the middle of the park where he’s not as good as Maddison, Bellingham, Rice , JWP, Phillips, etc etc in their roles. Maybe we should try him in goals .
As for the journalist,it’s not the first time I’ve happened across his writings and I find he follows the party line on the popular opinion. Nothing ground breaking or original in his thoughts . Stating Arnold as MOTM like it was fact demonstrates his artistic license.
The more I see this thread, the more I think the title says everything.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
As ever with these situations though, the big question is who’s next? It wouldn’t surprise me if the FA promoted Lee Carsley. The FA has form with making terrible appointments and they’ll be conscious of not repeating that as much as anything. Carsley is already in the set up and culture that’s been great during Southgate’s tenure and has proven he can win a tournament.
Not everyone will spot the Mike Bassett quote...
How many of the current squad would get into the team below? Maybe 2-4 at best?
England have failed to win tournaments and beat the top teams in knockout games consistently since 1966.
Gareth has come the closest to breaking that duck. He has a very good squad to choose from but arguably no better overall (taking into account all positions), and worse in some cases, than the 1990, 1996, 2002, 2004 and 2006 squads.
I think he deserves some credit for turning England's fortunes around, for contributing to youth development (pre taking the senior job) and for getting England to actually turn up and play in major tournaments. Our fans seem to have very short memories
Maybe it is time for someone else to take reigns after the next Euros, but the abuse Gareth gets is a symptom of England's greatest problem, the entitlement of some of our fans.
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Youll have to have Kane, Stones and Walker in for Owen, Campbell and Neville
Then you'll have to get Rice in there, with one of Lamps, Stevie or Scholes.
Beckham or Saka or Foden?
But you point is well made. England are incredibly fortunate in pretty much always having lots of very good players.
Problem has always been forming them into a team. GS is doing this better than anyone
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Interesting. Nobody plays 4-4-2 nowadays so it's not like for like of course. On that basis I'm not sure Beckham's in.How many of the current squad would get into the team below? Maybe 2-4 at best?
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If those are my options I'm going 4-3-2-1, as City play a lot at the moment...at least in possession!
Pickford
Walker Campbell Stones Cole
Gerrard Rice Bellingham
Foden Rooney
Kane
It's actually a really hard one to do. I want Saka in too but maybe Saka doesn't fit that system so well. Scholes should be in too but I think with Gerrard/Belligham you get more legs. I love Sterling and Grealish as well - especially Sterling at a major tournament who rises to the occasion for it.
Mad to leave Owen out but he's a great option from the bench for a tired opposition.
And I know I'll get pelters for leaving out JT but I think in modern international football you're left with the same problem with Terry as you are currently getting with Maguire. While I like him for a great many qualities I do think I'd like us to be more front foot defensively so someone quicker would suit. Personally I'd have peak Ferdinand over peak Campbell but he's not in that XI so gone with the options I was given.
Anyway I've gone 7 from GS's team and 4 from Sven's Golden Generation.
Last edited by tobywatches; 27th November 2023 at 13:26.
^^^^ I also found it hard but came to the same team and formation as you but with one switch; Rio for Campbell.
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