News
Update: 03/11/23
At Long Last the Fight for Parts Supply is Going to the High Court
Cousins battle with the Swatch Group is now heading to the High Court in London.
https://www.cousinsuk.com/page/news
THIN is the new BLACK
Good news....I think. Like many others I`d assumed Cousins had given up this battle, I`m heartened to learn that isn`t the case but I`ve lost any optimism I previously had regarding a successful outcome.
God loves a trier, can't fault Anthony Cousins for his resolve in this matter regardless of his underlying motives.
Spotted this email the other day too.
Hats off to them for still pushing!
Very little interest generated by this post, says something about how the forum has evolved in my opinion. Making watch parts freely available would benefit the majority of watch owners directly or indirectly, the with more options available to maintain their watches the price of servicing would become more affordable and the stranglehold that the manufacturers currently have would be broken.
Seriously, this could be a gamechanger.
I think it could well be because there is a lot of “flipping” of watches on the sales section so I imagine a good proportion of the members here sell watches before needing to service them.Originally Posted by walkerwek1958
In line with what you have said, I personally have sold my more expensive watches (well Omegas) as the service situation meant it’s become increasing unlikely that they can repaired or maintained (or indeed replaced) for a sensible price.
I also got the email and it was an interesting read. My thought when I read it was that the Swiss will work out a way to beat it, but I hope I'm wrong.
I read another article earlier today about the ETA 2824, its origins, and how widely it was used. When the Swiss stopped selling, other manufacturers cloned it to fill the gap it left. The Sellita SW200 was one that was mentioned, and it looks like Miyota are also adding one. Article is here (2824 is at the bottom) https://www.acollectedman.com/blogs/...d-world-part-i
I'm not suggesting that article is scripture, but it's interesting. I think that the might of the Swatch group will overcome whatever obstacles present themselves as they have deeper pockets and sadly that normally ends up on top.
I do still own some ETA powered watches, but probably 90% of my collection is Japanese as parts are still fairly well available
Just tried to PM you about watch servicing Paul but your inbox is full
The answer of course would be for consumers of watches to start voting with their feet and stop buying Swiss watches. We know this will never happen as watch owners are like football fans in one regard. No matter how much they are controlled, ripped off and ignored, they'll still carry on doing the same thing and support their 'brand'. The irony of British watch folk is that they also like to cut their noses off to spite their face. Take a home grown engineering company pushing to bring watch making back to the UK, even to the point of developing a bought in movement, you'd think that British watch fans would be jumping over themselves to heap praise on the company yet they receive an incredible amount of online abuse. We deserve everything that we get (or don't)
Meh..
Last edited by stooo; 11th November 2023 at 17:02.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
Not me, I bought an Apple Watch!
I wonder whether the other gamechanger will be 3D printing? If watchmakers can easily print parts (or get them printed), then the manufacturers will no longer control the supply of parts. I appreciate it may be some time before the printing technology is up to producing watch parts, but it's improving all the time.
I’d certainly like to see Cousins come through on this, but they really are butting up against some massive conglomerates and as mentioned above, this doesn’t seem to be an issue the average person cares about and hence their representatives and the press are likely the be applying any pressure to have it changed.
I do think the watch companies are cutting off their nose to spite their faces - not so much directly in consumers’ standing it seems, but indirectly by choking off the wider ecosystem of ADs, independent watchmakers and even their own ability to hire or outsource to qualified watchmakers and hence make it harder for watch owners to access and maintain their products in a timely and cost effective manner.
Regarding 3D printing parts, even if it was possible to produce the appropriate materials and tolerances (which I would hazard a guess it is not), then the watch groups play the same anti-competitive tricks the car makers tried: if it’s not a factory part or has a record of being fitted in a factory workshop then they revoke any warranty.
A good watchmaker can already make most replacement parts or source generic parts (often from the same suppliers to the brands themselves with identical or better quality), but again, if the brand doesn’t have a record of them fitting those parts or have additional markings that are absent, they’ll potentially make life difficult for the owner.
I certainly agree with your sentiment.
I am not a horologist or watchsmith, that said I have a few watches that have needed or have had work.
I'd love to have the opportunity to use a local & trusted horologist to service my bits.
Affordability is a huge factor in choosing whether to service a piece of to just let it run until it has an issue.
Options for independent servicing in Ireland aren't great and the guy I use offers decent value but no doubt many of his spare parts are NOS rather than ordered as needed.
Surely a tactic by Swatch to ensure that the supply of spare parts available is nil and as a consequence an action that strangles both Indy's and consumer choice too.
Appreciate your comments about the feasibility of 3D printing watch parts (although if it's not possible currently, then I'm sure it might be in the future as the technology improves), but I'd suggest that warranty is mostly a red herring. Presumably if the watch is still under warranty, then the manufacturer will be responsible for replacing the broken/defective component. And if it's out of warranty, then installing a non-original part won't have any impact.
Many watch parts consist of two smaller components staked together, there's sometimes scope for fixing parts that fail but in most cases the only answer is a replacement part, either new or used. Making replacement parts is beyond the scope of all but a very select few, and to pass the cost on to a watch owner isn`t feasible.
The supply of generic parts is limited (mostly) to crowns, seals and crystals. Generic mainsprings are available but I strongly suspect the manufacturer (GR) supplies the original item, so you're essentially buying the same part in different packaging.
I think it was Rolex who started restricting parts supply back in the early 90s, sadly many of the rest have followed suit. The big change occurred in 2015/16 when Swatch Group stopped supplying to wholesalers.
When I got involved with watch repairing around 2010 I was fired with enthusiasm, I never realised how big a problem parts supply would eventually become, if I had I think I would've found other ways to 'enjoy' early retirement. The biggest challenge was learning and developing the skills to do the work, getting parts for most stuff was relatively easy and Cousins (love them or loathe them) or Gleaves had almost anything I needed.
Anyone who browses watch parts on eBay will see how big a market there is for second-hand parts of dubious quality, silly money is now being asked for 1970s ETA parts and movements because they're either obsolete (discontinued) or Swatch Group restrict supply. Until recently I was buying up NOS Omega parts for certain movements if the price was attractive but I`ve virtually given up because the prices have become silly. if I take on a 60s Omega for 'service' I can almost guarantee it'll need a few new parts because, like a horse that's collapsed in the shackles, it'll have been run till it drops. My policy now is to keep a stock of Omega parts for my own collection and not replace anything I fit for others, when they're gone they're gone.
When the manufacturers claim that they're protecting their brands and doing owners a favour by restricting parts I have to smile. What has really happened is that old watches with limited value simply end up siting in a drawer when they stop running, or they get fixed using second-hand and generic parts to an acceptable standard which falls somewhat short of what could be achieved if new parts were freely available. 10 years ago I could sort out a typical 60s Omega automatic with a 565 movement very easily, the case would invariably need a replacement crystal, crown and caseback seal whilst the movement would need a new rotor bush, reverser, mainspring barrel, mainspring, and a small bearing in the auto-winding (forget its name). A tiny bearing at the end of the cannon pinion would often be missing too, but all these parts were readily available from cousins so a thorough job could be done at reasonable cost. Hands couple also be sourced (mostly) although some were discontinued.
Fast forward to 2023, I have to fit a generic crystal, possibly a generic crown with no Omega markings, and source the rest from my dwindling stash of parts. No chance of getting handsets, either make do with the originals or fit similar generics, always worth trying Cousins or eBay for NOS but chances of success diminish month by month.
I could go on........
As for 3D printing, I know very little about it, can someone who understands watch parts and understands 3D printing enlighten me whether it's remotely feasible? My gut reaction says no chance, but in the interests of open-mindedness I`ll try to keep an open mind.
From my experience the tolerancing is not there. Yet.
It is making big strides forward through.
Feasible, yes. Any time soon, unlikely. All watch parts, almost certainly no.
As has been mentioned already, the tolerances for 3d printers are unlikely ever to be good enough for the smaller watch parts and the materials almost certainly aren't. The biggest problem I can see is that 3d printing of metal is done in powder form and so any material characteristics used in watches, such as in a spring, can't be achieved. It's also a long process and so considering watch cases, a cnc machine might produce one in minutes, quality depending but 3d printing would take hours. The technology is rapidly improving but the fashion for them is also rapidly reducing. Desktop 3d printers are great for hobbyists and colleges but industrial level 3d printers cost a fortune and many companies are reluctant to invest as the technology is changing so quickly.
The ability to print parts would certainly breathe new life into old watches sporting obsolete movements with parts no longer available.
With 3D printers now being capable of printing in metals at nanoscale precision, the engineering tolerances required are no longer a problem.
As has been said, certain components such as springs will require additional processing, but the industry is getting there
Last edited by Paul J; 12th November 2023 at 14:28.
More a scientific journal headline than practical reality. Have nanoscale printers even found their way outside of a laboratory yet? I think that we're a long, long way from nanoscale printers with the required accuracy for watch making being used in practical applications.
Again, I know nothing about watchmaking but isn't this something the far east and in particular China could get involved in.
They apparently can re create Swiss watches to a very high standard so why not?
I'm sure I read on here somewhere of the possibility that Swiss watch parts may be supplied by China.
I applaud Cousins efforts, but fear for the outcome, it is very hard to successfully persuade a company entity to do what it has repeatedly refused to do.
On alternative supply options, rather than printing, many parts could be manufactured by laser cutting from sheet material.
Clearly, this is limited to parts that are planar, but many parts are flat.
I got a new hand set cut for a watch a while ago, and cut to minute precision in stainless steel, a single part was quite expensive (due to set up costs), but they were extremely cheap after that (single figures of pounds).
Here is a photo of the sample hands they produced for me, with the broken one that was being replaced in the tube at the top.
The precision achieved was excellent, bear in mind that the edges of the hands are 0.2mm wide.
I was especially impressed by how sharp the internal corners were, on the triangle at the end.
I tend to agree on the Cousins outcome.I applaud Cousins efforts, but fear for the outcome, it is very hard to successfully persuade a company entity to do what it has repeatedly refused to do.
On alternative supply options, rather than printing, many parts could be manufactured by laser cutting from sheet material.
Clearly, this is limited to parts that are planar, but many parts are flat.
I got a new hand set cut for a watch a while ago, and cut to minute precision in stainless steel, a single part was quite expensive (due to set up costs), but they were extremely cheap after that (single figures of pounds).
Here is a photo of the sample hands they produced for me, with the broken one that was being replaced in the tube at the top.
The precision achieved was excellent, bear in mind that the edges of the hands are 0.2mm wide.
I was especially impressed by how sharp the internal corners were, on the triangle at the end.
Those hands look superb which shows what can be achieved.
Makes me think that maybe that is the future - manufacturers who make parts to order, or even batch/mass produce parts for popular movements and watches as the gap in spares continues to emerge.
I'm watching with interest but don't have anything much to say to contribute to the discussion, I suspect a few are like that, I wouldn't take a slow discussion as a sign people don't think it's important.
I assume cousins are using the 'right to repair ' laws? That approach has had some success with motor manufacturers but its not a silver bullet. Fingers crossed though.
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