With a full order book and if the build quality is still crap, it can only get worse, they may well implodeOriginally Posted by Franky Four Fingers
The business is healthy and getting better both financially and with product quality improving and also future product strategy
The parts situation is a bit of a perfect storm but will be resolved very soon
Product quality is improving both for recent vehicles but also for later in life for more recent vehicles
The retailers are dealing with poorer quality from 5-8 model years ago which JLR are supporting as best they can
Having just left the business I know this factually by the way
Lol, are you a Tory politician?
Dealers are in turmoil, having friends who are service managers, after sales managers and salesmen I’m absolutely certain of JLRs current position. I spend in the region of 80-100k in parts and so also know this factually. They are a joke.
As for future strategy, Remind me how their 2020 vision has gone?
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Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 10th November 2023 at 21:22.
The opposite of a politician - I say it as it is
The parts situation is horrible but it will be resolved and resolved very soon. In the long term the it will also make a positive difference to the retailers. The business has stood up publically and said it’s horrible and it is getting the highest level of attention and efforts!
Independent metrics and the internal projects and metrics I worked on every day when I was there proves quality is getting better. Have a look at how JD Powers has improved over the last 3 years as an example.
I also talked directly to markets and retailers across the globe so again I do actually know what I am talking about with more data than those who have not worked there.
You also stated to thought the business was at risk - it’s the opposite, it is in the best position in a long time from a financial point of view, order book point of view and quality performance point of view.
Some public sources
Finance and order bank :
https://media.jaguarlandrover.com/ne...hflow-record-0
Quality : Note where Jaguar and Land Rover are against premium competitors
https://www.jdpower.com/sites/defaul...U.S.%20IQS.pdf
Also to show I’m a realist, the VDS from JD Power shows what I said about it getting better recently but retailer still suffering with older models
Land Rover bottom but improved since 2022 by 10 pp100
https://www.jdpower.com/business/pre...ility-studyvds
https://www.jdpower.com/business/pre...dability-study
What strategy are you referring to? The Reimagine strategy is working very well - see my previous post with regards to order bank and financial results and it also includes information on a future platform as well
Seen rubbish like this year in year out since 1997. This was from 2014 when they made every dealer and staff in the UK sit through this customer experience guff. Sitting listening to role play, having to become Freud working out customers personality traits by meeting them. JLR putting the failures and onus on the dealers when they couldn’t even supply literature packs for new vehicles. Please don’t tell me how great JLR are, I’ve lived it for 27 years.
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So ignore the facts and data that I shared and pull up something from 9 years ago, makes a lot of sense…
Seen rubbish like this year in year out since 1997. This was from 2014 when they made every dealer and staff in the UK sit through this customer experience guff. Sitting listening to role play, having to become Freud working out customers personality traits by meeting them. JLR putting the failures and onus on the dealers when they couldn’t even supply literature packs for new vehicles. Please don’t tell me how great JLR are, I’ve lived it for 27 years.
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The retailers have a part to play in the customer experience just as JLR do - I could reel you off literally hundreds of examples where retailer did not repair vehicles correctly despite having all the correct tools, methods and parts to do so. I seen the data every single day from across the world.
You stated the business was going to be in trouble and this so is simply nonsense as I have shown with data whereas yours is nothing more than an opinion. The only thing we agree on is the horrible parts situation and I have stated this is recognised and will be sorted
We are never going to agree and that’s OK but the data shows the business is in a healthy place and the best for a long time
Correct tools… don’t make me laugh!
10 years ago you had huge amounts of guys sat on technical… what’s happened to them…Please enlighten me?
Explain to me the hoops that dealers have to jump through just to get authority to repair the rubbish that was being kicked out?
Ever heard of FRED? Great isn’t it!
The reason I shared something from 9 years ago was because you asked me and it was their next big thing which only finished 3 years ago. Tell me how did they stack up to their own expected metrics.
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I ran Jaguars for 22 years and it was always a love hate relationship. They are gorgeous cars, opulent, sexy and do indeed have the Grace, Pace and Space that Bill Lyons created. Unfortunately they are far too prone to minor problems that just follow one after another. I could put up with the petrol gushing and high servicing costs as it's all part of the territory.
Seen rubbish like this year in year out since 1997. This was from 2014 when they made every dealer and staff in the UK sit through this customer experience guff. Sitting listening to role play, having to become Freud working out customers personality traits by meeting them. JLR putting the failures and onus on the dealers when they couldn’t even supply literature packs for new vehicles. Please don’t tell me how great JLR are, I’ve lived it for 27 years.
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When I retired I sold the Jag and bought a Honda Civic. The Honda is ultra reliable, never goes wrong and servicing is a dirt cheap.
I still am keen on Jags but I would never buy one again because one of my sons ran a F type and the engine blew and it cost him thousands.
They are only now acknowledging that their cars have a security problem, now that insurance companies are refusing to insure them, had this this conversation before, but the Chinese content in JLR cars us going up and up,
As an aside, the Chinese connection is putting me off goingback to Vovo
We are never going to agree - that much is clear but I would encourage you to look at the data
FRED only exists because some retailers do not bother to correctly diagnose problems. At one point I spent 6 months reviewing every single FRED request for a particular component because of high warranty spend and the parts having no fault when tested
While the component was on FRED warranty spend went down by a huge amount due to right first time repairs being improved and the cost of repair being decreased due to the component being high cost. Technicians hated me at the start but when they were simply not doing their job correctly I had to do something about it and it worked - most of the good technicians appreciated the feedback I gave them as they had a customer car that was fixed instead of one that would be back as the first repair they wanted to do wouldn’t have fixed it.
I have also worked with a lot of technicians and service managers who joined JLR - they were almost all brilliant people who made a huge difference but their views changed massively when they could see what JLR could see
I didn’t come on here to say JLR are perfect or even great but to give some data that shows your opinion of the business struggling was not based on fact.
On the insurance point some of what has been stated on this thread is incorrect but I cannot share why as it’s not public knowledge
You are correct, we won’t agree. Was around the in-laws so couldn’t continue however…..
JD power surveys proves that they're still shyte but not as shyte as they used to be. Now if you showed me the graph that jumped them up a few places then id be seriously impressed but we all know, including you, thats not liable to happen anytime soon.
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Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 10th November 2023 at 23:29.
I guess it would be a good time to discus the time you made redundant the vast majority of area tech managers and replaced them with 5 blokes sat in a call centre that didn’t know the first thing about the product? An important link between dealer and manufacture that was got rid of at the swipe of a a pen. Before that of course the time when technical stopped taking calls and it was all done via email? It would then take 3 days for a reply whilst the 48 hr deadline you forced upon the dealers to rectify the vehicles was already over.
Whilst its great for you to sit there and tell me how it is, you forget that a vast number of us sat behind the complete inept attitude of JLR and the blithering decision they made which directly effected the dealers. Of course once the vehicle was diagnosed wed also be lucky to get the bits assuming they weren't on BO.
It’s great to actually hear the attitudes of the JLR hierarchy, we expected what went on in the background…i should have known it was your network of dealers that were the real problem
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 10th November 2023 at 23:50.
At no point have I said it’s all the retailers fault or that JLR are brilliant
I have shared data that shows a healthy business on an improving trend - you seem to get very defensive as it’s not aligned with your view that started this conversation
In my time there which was until very recently, my colleagues and I all valued the retailer network massively - they have a tough job and do their best but they also are not perfect hence my examples. Like all things in life it’s better to work together than against each other and the most successful retailers do just that and it has a huge positive impact on customer satisfaction and their bottom line.
The times of redundancy were awful - I had to make decisions that still sit with me to this day as some great people had their lives turned upside down. It had to be done though as the business was in survival mode - it was bad for everybody including the customers.
Some day maybe we will get the chance to meet and talk in person - I think it would be a great conversation and the drinks are on me!
Who's FRED ?? 😂😂
So, some disconnect bwtween company management and the coal face, at least in perception?
Most of this thread had been about the LR and less about the J, Is there any appreciable difference between the two marques, in reliability and support terms etc?
JLR was a huge part of life at dealer level for many years and of course still is today but i thank the day i saw the light and finally left. Not that I'm placing you responsible but during that time you also got rid of quite a few long standing dealers that helped get the brand where it was. Dealers that were full of people who had 30 plus years experience who knew the product inside and out. These businesses were then taken over by the likes of the Cambria group who bastardised the business in a week. You lost great people during that time…for what? To fill these new flash dealerships with people who simply don't care. Customers now are walking bloody wallets and thats it…there is no longer any real relationships based anymore on trust. Dealers now are only interested in one thing…selling the numbers and flogging over priced tat to customer that don't need it. If you want to look at the issues at JLR you need to look from inside.
I would love for you as someone who has clearly had quite a high profile job at JLR to sit in my office and listen to the stories day in day out about the utter hatred, and it is hatred, for the local dealers. I think I've heard something then someone else comes in and trumps the story….lowers the bar to mm’s
I apologies if I've been quite abrupt and emotional on this subject, i appreciate im only looking from one side and obviously its not a clear cut case but judging by the past 6 months dealing with JLR on a daily basis i fail to see how they can continue on the same curve for much longer.
Yes I think it would be good to chat at some point
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 11th November 2023 at 00:41.
He made the tea but they made him redundant.
Its a prior approval system that dealers had to use before they replaced specific parts
I would be horrified if my watch/car was coveted by scumbags. Paying a premium for it? Unthinkable.
Tata are skilled at getting tax payers money out of governments by crying wolf time and time again I worked with GM they did the same
“If you don’t give us xxx’xxx’xxx we will close Luton and Ellesmere”
They did this every 7-8 years successfully.
Tata “Give us 500 million and we will keep the steel works open”
Tata “Give us 500 million and we will keep JLR production in U.K.” unless Spain offer more
Tata 2013 “Give us 500 million or we close Halewood”
https://www.theguardian.com/business...ry-plant-in-uk
https://planet.outlookindia.com/news...el-news-415952
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...r-tata-3458211
They know how to bend over politicians like Hunt and Sunak who can’t be seen as losing jobs or factories shut down on their watch as bad optics Tata know this.
And having spent 35 years with GM and Ford I will always remember this being the manufacturer standpoint.
When everything is going well it’s because of our great product and brilliant brand management and when it’s all going wrong it’s because of shit dealers (the same ones as when it was going well).
Warranty or ‘policy’ costs are a huge problem as they need to be costed into RRP’s and spiraling claims push up RRP affecting competitiveness and bottom line and so to manufacturers, dealers putting claims in are the devil and instead of fixing the root of the problems ‘product quality’ and ‘component manufacturers’ they make it increasingly hard for dealers to claim , prior approval, photos videos, hours hanging on phone, days to respond, inspections which means waiting days or weeks for factory tech to come in just to confirm your diagnosis was correct meanwhile the customer is in a hire car getting more angry by the day.
Just to add many manufacturers have ‘procurement bods’ whose job ot is to source components it’s often apparent their main focus is on cost alone and not longevity or servicability or even the supplier’s credentials this is I think the cause of much of the problem.
Then you submit your monthly claims often substantial amounts tens of thousands and then often wait weeks to get paid or if your unlucky some rejected which means hours battling on the phone or online, piles of old parts choking the parts department for months awaiting return and inspection to make sure you didn’t just make up the defect that the customer raised as a concern.
Thats before you start on peer group charts and audits many of which can result in fines into hundreds of thousands with penalties and interest, for fraud (very rare normally big PLC) and thats fine but sometimes it’s based on technicians poor write ups or clockings or not booking out a 10p washer on a £10’000 engine job debits the whole claim, I sat on the warranty audit appeal board and saw decent grown men utterly broken.
Dealers hate doing warranty work its filled with trepidation, angry customers and manufacturers who are bizarrely suspicious and paranoid of the very people who they chose to represent them as trusted partners who are trying to defend the manufacturers reputation and retain the customers confidence.
Many dealers now actively manage away warranty work to other neighbouring dealers by being too busy not wanting to end up on the naughty step or buried under paper and parts so customers ricochet like a pinball from dealer to dealer until some poor soul says “yeh we can look at that”.
Maybe one day manufacturers will open their own ‘warranty’ repair outlets nationwide that would be a fascinating case study dealers could help set them up with bank style protection screens and gum shields.
FFF we have the same T Shirt.
Same T shirt and printed at the same time!
It's a bit like the Danegeld the Anglo Saxons paid the Vikings but instead of protection from invasion, we must pay the Indians/ Tata not to take their ball home, protect the jobs...sweet scams both of them. It was insightful and honest, when Mark Carney former head of the BOE commented on how dependent our economy has become upon the 'kindness of strangers''...though in fairness it ain't really kindness if you must pay for it, repeatedly.
Last edited by Passenger; 11th November 2023 at 09:13.
I’ve always thought it strange that the likes of Hyundai and Kia can provide 5 or even 7 year warranty on their products. Which are generally low to middle of the pack on price and aperation.
But companies like JLR only offer a few. If I was spending £100k + on a product I’d expect it to be well made with a decent warranty in the first place.
I’d love a Range Rover but I’m generally unlucky when it comes to buying stuff, often get the one that was made on a Friday afternoon before a bank holiday Monday!
That’s why I went for one year old 7 seat Kia that they reset back to 7 year warranty for me. Touch wood not had a problem and the dealer network is very good and reasonably priced.
Getting back to topic my insurance has gone up though!!
Im ashamed to say that i no longer recommend customers newer Land Rovers who are looking for replacement cars. I know this is completely shortsighted on my behalf but when the likes of Kia can produce a vehicle with very few inherent problems and then place a 7 year warranty on them why would i?
The simple fact is, if JLR stuck a 7 year warranty on their vehicles they'd be out of business, the Ingenium debacle would be enough alone.
Apologies for derailing the thread but given the subject its all part of the bigger picture
I'm going to share my recent experience here.
In October 2021 I took delivery of a brand new Range Rover Sport P400e Black Edition. It was a car with a retail in excess of £80k. It was on contract lease.
It broke down six times (three of them very dangerously - I'll come to that in a moment) in the space of 15 months and less than 11,500 miles. It spent nearly four months in three different main dealerships failing to be fixed, with the same fault recurring.
The fault - a complete power/drive failure without warning. This happened three times at home, necessitating a flat bed lorry and crane to take it away, and three times while driving. The final time while at our holiday home in Somerset on the A39 with the family aboard. This is a very busy road and I avoided a catestrophic crash by a split second.
My wife then understandably refused to get in it again. I felt the same.
JLR Customer Service did keep in touch, but their focus was very much on persuading me to keep the car. I notified the Lease company that I was rejecting the car on multiple grounds, which they did finally accept, but told me JLR was not supporting a rejection and thus they couldn't refund me the proportion of the deposit I had paid for the car on a 48 month lease (given I had only had it 15months). I went to the Financial Services Ombudsman who was brilliant, found unequivocally in my favour, and I was eventually refunded the £5k they owed me.
To add insult to injury, my insurer informed me that my premium was going up from around £500 per annum to more than £1500.
As it turned out, this was not an issue because the car did not return. I ended up having 48hours to sort my self another car. As I obviously did not have time to order anything else I went out and paid £24k cash for a top spec but lightly used Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (I needed a PHEV SUV, which was why I had ordered the RR).
I have now had the Mitsubishi for over six months with zero issues. It may not have quite the premium feel and look of the RR, but it is actually a genuinely brilliant car. All the tech on board works perfectly, and the PHEV system is far cleverer and more efficient than the RR. It also has more gadgets, surprisingly, including Adaptive Cruise, Blind Spot warning, Lane Assist, and an older but actually better Media system with an excellent Alpine sound system.
It's a great shame, as I have bought numerous JLR products over the years (mostly Jags in the 2000's - 2010's), but never again. Dangerous and far, far too unreliable and neverending amounts of hassle. The irony is that my 2014 Aston Martin Vanquish, a car you would expect to have reliability issues, is far more dependable than the RR ever was.
My view, with the benefit of some time to reflect, is that JLR are spending their limited resources on styling and image, but not on the engineering.
Sadly, and with regret, never again.
So clever my foot fell off.
Sounds like a full spectrum ball ache TFB. Thanks for sharing. Happy motoring.
I've just read this and my jaw dropped !!!
https://dieselheads.co.uk/our-engine...genium-engine/
I’ve always admired nice looking cars from afar, but have never wanted any more than something that gets me safely from A to B in relative comfort and without breaking the bank.
Reading this I find it absolutely inexplicable that folks will still queue up to shell out vast amounts of money for these problematic vehicles. Honestly the potential arse-ache alone would be enough for me
In fairness they are common failure modes in all engines, that article doesn’t give enough information, for instance injector failure in a lot of Mercedes engines can mean massive bills or even a scrap engine or little end/timing slipper failure in Peugeot/BNW mini means a new engine.
Got the awful T-Shirt for Mercedes Sprinter ‘black death’ injector failure.
Naively, I’d never heard of it when I purchased a van a few years back in readiness for a camper conversion, saw the black cake around the leaking injectors and thought I’d swap them out and job done. The van was cheap, but turns out it was cheap for a reason, was a nightmare job and I ended up having to fit a new head.
It wouldn’t be so bad but that’s unfortunately just the very tip of a titanic sinking iceberg.
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Always amazes me the power of marketing and advertising, when you can take a woefully unreliable car (Land Rover) and take a photo of it parked at the top of a hill having it been driven off road to get there. Free your life, weekends will never be the same, or some other bollox is written over the advert.
And then there are the sheeple who convince themselves they want a Land Rover to drive off road up a hill every weekend, but in reality 99% of them just clog up the car parks of Waitrose in Surrey.
Isn’t it one of their engines TDV6 that you can’t get spares for, if it goes bang it’s a new engine ?
Amen.
I spent the best part of 25 years in the motor trade before property, my current run about is a 20 year old Audi A2, - sticking a shed load of cash into a deprecating asset (I see many do it) just goes against the grain for me, maybe it's being partly Scottish and partly Yorkshire.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
I entirely agree with you.
However, I must say that when it works, a Range Rover is a nice place to travel in.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Yes, they never released bottom end components for the TDV6 in the UK
Of course there is also no tech data available. The TDV6 will be a constant thorn in the side to JLR and will continue to be for a few years yet.
They have a great way of sweeping things under the carpet long enough for them not to be responsible for it.
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Some of us are happy to waste money on toys, but then I don’t understand the people who spend fortunes in pubs
My 2017 Disco Sport engine (ingenium) went pop after shelling out £15k for it 67 days earlier. Took the Turbo with it and I was faced with a £12.5k bill.
Thankfully, Bank of Scotland have been brilliant and are refunding my deposit and cancelling the contract.
It’s actually massive relief to be out of it.
Now tootling around in a 7 year old Jeep Renegade. Owned one from new previously for 5yrs and never had a single issue with it.
It’s a shame as I really fancied an F-type at some point in the ‘near’ future but I’ll not be considering anything to do with JLR again.
Live a little and do both.
Chuck women into the mix too and it's like burning 50 quid notes but the stories are good.
Your example is the very reason I refuse to do any repairs on then ngenium.
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I’ve had a velar for 2yrs. I’ve absolutely adored it. Couple of snags (sunroof stopped working and pillar trim came away somehow) but I’ll be gutted when it goes on Tuesday. Absolutely gutted.
Yes there are problems - but there are also many happy owners. I may have been lucky but it’s one of my favourite cars I’ve ever owned. If I enjoy my next car at least half as much as the Velar I’ll be happy.
Two years ha ha.
And?
I think he means after three years and out of warranty you would probably not been so happy.
Good to hear it’s a good looking car and you sound smitten.
Can I ask has your enjoyable experience built sufficient brand loyalty ,confidence such that it has compelled you to purchase another Land Rover ?
I only ask this as ‘retention’ like many other manufacturers is probably the most critical bench mark to measure success.
I was quite apprehensive getting the car given all the negative stories about reliability. But I’ve been impressed with the car and the dealership I’ve used (Sytner Sheffield). I bought the car from Vertu Chesterfield but use Sheffield due to being closer.
I did order a Defender back in May after deciding between that and a Range Rover Sport so you could yes my experience has led to me feeling comfortable enough in getting another vehicle from JLR. I subsequently cancelled in September due to escalating insurance costs. Only reason I ordered in the first place was I knew there were 12-18 month waiting lists on cars I was looking at and it timed nicely with keeping the Velar for 2.5-3yrs.
I have similar apprehensions around the Taycan I’ve ordered as hear a few horror stories too but will see how it goes. I’ve been fortunate to get a really good deal only own build so am getting a lot sooner than I was hoping to as wanted to keep the Velar at least to the middle of next year.
Pretty irrelevant though isn’t it. Unless we can only give a view on a car if owned over 3yrs and it’s out of warranty. For the record, I’ve done just over 34k in the car as well so have used it well above average mileage. In my 35yrs of driving I’ve only done over 10k in a year once. I’ve driven this one a hell of a lot due to the enjoyment of driving it.
The longest I’ve ever had a car anyway is 2.5yrs (I’ve lost count of how many I’ve had but it’s over 40). My favourite was my Z4M coupe but the Velar is a close second.
If it wasn’t for (back on topic) ridiculous insurance prices I’d be keeping it
Last edited by senwar; 12th November 2023 at 09:02.
My fault for the derail so aplogies.
So 5000 plus RR’s stolen in the last year and quickly rising, whats happening to the vehicles?
Are they simply being re-plated and sold on or harvested for the parts? Sold abroad…whats the story?
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