Reply With QuoteIf you're doing work for the competition surely you're getting fired?
Would appreciate some advice on this. Long story short things have been tricky at work with the economic impact on our business and in order to remain profitable the business has paid out a lot less in commissions. I rely on these as a single earner who is also a primary carer for a disabled son and now also a carer for a sick wife. I am a leader in my organisation on a decent basic salary but specialist care costs for my son are astronomical, and I need to pay that so I can go to meetings/office etc as my wife is unable to care for him.
Long story short I have the opportunity to do some consultancy work on the side to make up the shortfall. This is with various organisations. I'm going to speak to my employer about this on Tuesday and be up front about it and why I'm doing it however there may be some sensitivity as some of these organisations are competitors so I'd need to pick and choose of course the projects I take on.
As soon as the market picks up again and commissions revert back to the norm I'd drop the consultancy gigs.
Has anyone done consulting work on the side and got advice on things to look our for and how best to broach this with employer?
If you're doing work for the competition surely you're getting fired?
Unless you have a very very good relationship with your employer, I would be surprised if they let you, especially in the same area of work.
I wish you all the best though.
Cheers..
Jase
What they said. When you say commissions, do you mean sales commissions? If so, have they reduced the percentage or are you (team) selling less?
On the former, I’d be all over my contract. Moving goalposts is a bastids trick.
Yeah I'd imagine so hence me discussing in Tuesday with my employer prior to engaging on any project so they are comfortable with it all.Originally Posted by Bondurant
We decided as a company to make no redundancies and protect the employees however commissions have been much lower as a result. To put it into context my overall remuneration is 60% down year on year, that's something quite specific to my package though, for most people commissions are a far smaller part of their compensation.
consulting for the opposition - good luck in finding your next job mate !
ok, you posted as I replied - have just turned down a 5% rise saying i need an income which doesn't specifically have to be this one - 5% turned into 11%.
if offered a 60% drop i'd be consulting my arse off and shoving two fingers up to my current employer !
Last edited by bigbaddes; 25th August 2023 at 20:04.
Yeah I phrased that wrong, what I meant is they are among the companies who have expressed an interest, obviously I'd not do that without my employer's blessing although we are in a slightly strange situation where some of our competitors are also simultaneously clients!
That didn’t fully answer my question but I guess it’s your business how detailed you get. Revenue must be down from what you say. You’ve clearly been party to a decision that’s reduced your income to share the pain. On your question, if you worked for me and were contemplating anything that had even a whiff of conflict of interest then it’d be game over. Even things that distracted you from the day job would be a no no. Tread carefully.
Sorry to hear that Ryan. I have no knowledge of Consultancy but I am self employed. Just be aware of the VAT threshold (£85k turnover). If you go above it it's a major ball ache from an accounting point of view.
Don’t you have a no compete clause in your contract? If you have something in there that stops you (for example) going to a direct competitor within 12 months of leaving your current company, they won’t take too kindly to you doing it while still employed.
There’s probably also something in your contract that specifically forbids you working for anyone else while still at your current employer.
I always thought this was fairly standard professional employment contract stuff, but I may be wrong.
Also don’t forget that the people in your HR department are not your friends.
Good luck!
Yeah I understand and I'll talk frankly with my CEO about it.
Yep 12 months no compete but only on specific activities that are involved in enticing clients across or current employees. Also non competes are about to be hammered in Parliament to revert to a maximum of 3 months due to the prohibitive impact on job movement.
in a consultancy-type business - VAT can be really simple. Where the dificulty lies if you are in the type of category where you are invoicing private individuals where they cannot reclaim the VAT. Someone below that VAT threshold is more attractive.
Re revenues, yes they are down as is the whole industry but we are down much less than the competition. My specific regions are up however, the issue being for me is that my commissions are largely linked to overall business performance not my own region, and also are something like 60% of overall remuneration. So I've had instances where my regions have got to 100%+ of goal and YOY growth in a very tough market but because the company as a whole didn't hit EBITDA goals due to underperformance elsewhere I get no commission at all (although my sales teams do).
Not sure what it’s like at Ryan’s level but my last few contracts have commission as discretionary. Everyone knows what the commission and OTE is, the recruiters advertise the job as £X OTE, but the rug can be pulled if the powers at be deem it necessary.
Think it might have something to do with the British Gas commission court case.
Either way sorry to hear this Ryan and hopefully something works out.
Any chance of renegotiating your remuneration? ( never easy halfway through a year of course)
Cheers..
Jase
Management don’t play by them rules though do they? Ryan has explained and it’s honourable but I can see his issue. Context is everything but it’s still a big chat that could go wrong IMO.
Others have highlighted some of the potential risks, which I'm sure you have already thought about.
I wonder if there is any mileage in routing this consultancy through your employer, as a new/additional service.
Might not be viable of course, but just an idea that might be more digestible for your boss.
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Are the other companies in the same business or competition? Big no
If they don't have any impact or effect your current company. Can't see why not
Ask the CEO and explain your current situation, so it doesn't come across as you looking for more money to pad your own pocket
Things to consider:
Any non-compete in your contract
Your standing in the organisation and relationship with it / your boss
How you will find the time to do this given your personal situation and no doubt your existing work commitments
Your perception of your employer's potential response to the request, for example do others already do it in the organisation, how open minded they may be, whose approval is required up the chain
What basis you will take on further work (eg. transparency with your employer as to client base) and how to mitigate impact on your day job, pay etc
Legally they cannot stop you having a further source of income, it's just how that may sit with them and potentially their attitude to you and any perceived downsides it brings.
Ian
Notwithstanding the competition issues, I believe most employers of professional people would have a concern that moonlighting for another organisation would render the employee too tired and too distracted to do their current job to the best of their abilities.
So, competition aside, I reckon your employer would say no.
My contract says I have to have agreement from my employer if I wish to moonlight, and I presume yours does too.
Well that’s an incorrect sweeping statement. Depends what is in your contract.
My contract says I have to have approval from my employer to moonlight for anyone else.
If they found out I was moonlighting without prior agreement I would be in breach of contract, and hence they could terminate my contract and I would have no legal recourse.
I'd be having a chat with them and explain the situation, not just about the consultancy work, but also the care costs etc, and see if you can work out an agreement.
I've moved away from commission roles now thankfully.
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Agree completely with this. Terrible idea but obviously you know the personalities and culture. Potential to backfire spectacularly.
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Cake.
I once negotiated a side gig with an employer but it only worked cos I was resigning out of there over a 3 month period, while they got my replacement recruited and the side gig was wholly unrelated to the day job which was new biz generation... the side gig was working on a flat we'd bought, were significantly renovating, working unpaid for myself basically.
I thought Ryan's wife had recuperated, though may've got my wires crossed. Speaking honestly, she really does sound like more trouble than she's worth Ryan...
Last edited by Passenger; 26th August 2023 at 11:15.
Terrible idea born out of ‘desperation’ I’m afraid. Don’t do it - your company is already looking to save money so you will just give them the reason to pay you off and promote an ambitious 30 something on less money. If you have the room you could consider a live in au-pair - there could very well be an experienced classroom assistant who would consider a role like that given horrendous housing costs down there.
This.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
In the corporate world, I can’t see this ending up in anything but a quick P45 or being forced out under increased scrutiny of anything your business loses to a competitor. There is a massive conflict of interest risk (whether or not you compromise your impartiality). I have worked in companies who use subbies / consultants, all of which are permitted to work non-exclusively; were it a PAYE asking to work for a competitor they would have been told to either get a full time job with them or go su-contract- with the risk that they may not get anymore work from the current company.
Good luck but I would try and ride it out or look elsewhere.
Surely you have a decent whack saved from those years on the six-figures-not-starting-with-a-one? Tighten your belt, sell off a few watches and handbags if necessary and ride the tide until things improve as they surely will. And you could always do a bit of window cleaning.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Also valid points.
That’s a bit unfair IMHO, none of us know Ryan’s financial situation and a 60% cut could quite easily take that six figure salary not starting with a one, down to a five figure salary.
How many here could actually afford to take a 60% reduction in household income without wanting to look for a supplemental income?
That said, it’s a dangerous game to moonlight for any competition of your primary employer.
Ah but in fairness he's not been shy has he and the key thing is to protect/ hedge against a drop in your salary, even more so on big money/ Job...sometimes they don't last forever, so make hay while the sun shines, save hard and start building a nest egg/ rainy day fund along with another income stream...against the day it, that job/ salary, just fades away...as that shizz can, does happen to anyone...or spend it on watches, handbags whatever., assets that in need can be sold....
Speaking kinda from experience of moving to London with just a hundred quid between me and the wife, lived in shared accommodation and hand top mouth, for the first year or so....
Last edited by Passenger; 26th August 2023 at 13:46.
I'm hardly qualified to answer this question.
I'm now retired. When I was working, I was a blue collar worker, on a five figure salary. (Not starting with a one either...!).
I was a train driver. Call me naïve or whatever, I cant see any employer, agreeing to this. Particularly if it could be seen as in any way in competition to their company, or detrimental to their business?
I would also call you not being focussed 100% on your current employment etc. (Im saying this as I assume this is what your bosses would say!! NOT my opinion!), by you wanting to work elsewhere .in your downtime etc.
I "assume" they would want you 100% dedicated to the business" dedicated to us. loyal, blah blah How etc etc. How can you be 100% focused here if you work elsewhere etc etc etc,"...
These and similar things, I would assume, is what they would tell you?
I'm quite surprised you wouldn't be thinking along the same lines to be honest. Nobody is indispensable , is I assume! the line they would take.?
There again? I could well be totally wrong, and they would be more than happy for you to work elsewhere in your own time?! What do I know!
I appreciate that, however I am kind of speaking from the experience of going from a two income family to single whilst also losing a lot of overtime in order to support a seriously unwell child. We dropped by well over 60%, have dipped into savings to make it happen, simplified our lives and cut back on holidays and so on. Ryan has clearly been able to afford a lot of luxuries, tells us about the extensive eating out and whatnot, so I hope that he also put some of that disposable income aside making hay whilst the sun shined.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Would have thought the best idea, before any discussion with management, would be a discussion with an employment lawyer about your specific employment contract and employment law generally. That way, you know where you stand legally - and the risks.
I'd be looking for someone more interested in making a success of the business, and less willing to jump into working for the competition at the first hint of trouble. You'd be sacked or 'made redundant' first opportunity. Highly unfair I know, but it's how business works usually.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Simple , just go and find another job that pays more with your skill set, or sell up and live within your means. I can not see your current employer entertaining the idea of you moonlighting unless it’s in an entirely different field.
I’ve been waiting for someone to bring up Ryan’s previous posts regarding striking workers being selfish as all they need to do is get a higher paying job if they want more money but TZ has failed me. Apparently it’s really simple.
Ouch.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
To reiterate I didn't say I'd do consulting work for a competitor I said competitors had approached me, but obviously I'd have to pick and choose what projects and what companies.
Anyway I spoke to my CEO an hour ago as I'm on Public Holiday tomorrow but 3 of my regions are working on monday so to provide an update, and I told him the situation and that I'm at a place where I feel I may need to resign and the reasons why. He's setting up a chat with himself, myself and the HRD on Tuesday so we'll see how it pans out, hopefully something gets sorted.
This....is what went through my mind as soon as I read Ryans original post. That is not a conversation I would be having with my employer Ryan and, as a Corporate Leader I would immediately view you as a cost save opportunity.
Threatening to resign is a bad idea IMO. It is an ultimatum to your company which I believe will not sit well with anybody.
You should first make your case for a pay rise, or bonus rise without threat of resignation.
If that doesn’t go well, you either resign or you don’t.
In my experience - the R-word is never mentioned until it is a final statement.
Never a prelude to negotiations.
You have my interest - now!
Yeah I agree normally but I have a very open relationship with my CEO (I have a dotted line into him), and he's always said to tell him if I'm ever thinking of leaving for any reason.
The issue here is financial (which can be tweaked) but also logistical due to being a primary carer for my son as my wife is now also incapacitated.
The latter side I need to figure out and which has to date involved money for private care staff, I do also have social services involved to try and get respite care for him as well but thats an ongoing process with no known end date. I guess it's just everything piling on top at one time. I'm just trying to be proactive and get ahead of the problem.
No matter what relationship you believe you have I think you have overshot this one. Hope it's not the case for you Ryan but I imagine you are now in a very difficult situation.
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Maybe but the priority is my son. If it means I'm out of work, stuck in a council flat (over dramatisation of worst case but you get my drift) but can give him the care he needs then that'll be far more important for me than a bumper pay rise but no resources to support him. I've had a lot of money before, things you buy with it only give fleeting satisfaction, they never take away worries about what will happen in the future.
hey Ryan, haven't any advice but wanted to wish you the best of luck . Hope it works out and keep your head up.
It sounds a bit like you agreed specific contract terms that you were happy with when the money was good but you're not now things are less good, so having your cake and eating it springs to mind but I do appreciate that may not be the case.
That said, most businesses will flex to keep good staff as replacements are not easy to find and are an unknown quantity. I hope your employer is one of the good ones and appreciates your honesty as an attempt to find a solution agreeable to all, rather than any kind of threat.
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