Those things are easily said when the company is flying high, you are making lots of money for them, and you are seen as indispensable.Originally Posted by ryanb741
I would be very careful with your tactics going forward, unless you are 100% happy to walk. As I have found out through my ongoing 32 year professional career, nobody is indispensable.
Edit - you came on to ask for advice, and then jumped in to threaten your resignation. There are a few wiser heads than mine on this forum. When seeking advice on a sensitive employment topic such as this, I would listen very carefully. Rarely are threats a useful negotiating tool.
Last edited by noTAGlove; 26th August 2023 at 18:49.
I'm definitely not indispensible but also understand that in business at a leadership level it's not what you do but what you get done that matters and how you get there and get rewarded for that should be flexible assuming others aren't available to get the same things done more efficiently (which of course they may do, I'm sure there are more capable people than myself in the market).
You can state all the managerial stuff, but if your remuneration is down 60% YOY, then it sounds like the business is going through a very tough time.
It sounds like the sector you are in must be going through a tough time too, as anyone who took a 60% remuneration cut would simply jump ship, as a 60% remuneration cut is equivalent to a 150% pay rise to get back to the same pay. So, is it feasible to get a new position that pays significantly greater?
As I said, IMO when you threaten you have to be 100% prepared to walk. Otherwise they are just empty threats, and that has the potential to weaken trust and impact relationships.
Basic budgeting, in simple terms and I guess you’ll have thought of all of this but..
To make ends meet you needs to cut outgoings and/or increase incomings (obviously)
You’ve had some thoughts about increasing incomings but what about decreasing outgoings?
Is your wife willing to take up any of the care of your son? That will cut down on those costs, but if she is unable to do that can she add to the incomings by earning perhaps?
Are there any lifestyle changes that you could make to cut outgoings?
I agree with previous posters on the difficulties around doing extra work in the same field for someone other than your employer
Last edited by demonloop; 26th August 2023 at 19:06. Reason: Spelling
I am surprised you do not get better support from Surrey CC. My kids went to a Surrey CC school not far from you, and it was also designated to cater for special needs. And, for what I saw over many years it was a very professional set-up with special needs children taxied to school and the staff fully trained to support special needs and integrate them normally throughout the school. The council has a duty of care and I would be pushing this as much as possible.
Personally I think folk are being a little overdramatic. If his boss would fire him for having a conversation, then that's not a boss worth having. It's not like it's out of the blue, he's had a 60% haircut, who wouldn't consider options?
Conflict of interest is a challenge, and I'd be careful to make clear in conversations that you want to be proactive in avoiding exposure to a CoI situation, and ultimately be prepared for a no (although hopefully something more balanced). The other challenge with something like this is the employer might see it as setting a precedent that may lead to others wanting to do the same, so even if it's not an issue with Ryan they may not want to open that door.
Another thought - if remuneration has fallen heavily, could you have a discussion about time? i.e. could you work a shorter week, and could that make more of a difference to you given the care considerations then extra incoming £'s?
One more consideration is how long the fallen remuneration is anticipated to last. i.e. if it's going to be business as usual in the new year I'd be less inclined to rock the boat.
Either way Ryan, hope it goes well for you.
I think this is a very sensible approach.
That perception does not have any influence on reality.
There is a difference between having a conversation, and threatening your resignation.
I would have no issue having a conversation with a manager to make a case for better remuneration. That is perfectly acceptable if you can make a good case for it. I would never threaten my resignation for better remuneration.
He goes to a specialist school, only for children with additional needs. However without going into too many details here, he is too 'hardcore' for them so doesn't participate in all activities, his behaviour at home is overwhelming, distressing, and needing a huge amount of time and focus, he also needs specialist support (you can't just get a normal childminder), he also has complex medical needs.
He can not be taken out to theme parks, to see friends, even a shopping mall, it would be too overwhelming. The only place he can go is to watch planes land and take off at Heathrow, but only if specific planes land or take off (checked beforehand on flightradar).
The last time I saw a friend was before the pandemic. Simply can't leave him alone for a period of time even with a carer. The carers are just there in school holiday time to stop him rushing into my room when I'm on a MS Teams call and scream, swear, piss, vomit, whatever when I'm with clients or colleagues online.
I have to sleep in the same bed as him every night, he simply will freak out alone. Every night he will piss himself as well.
At the same time my wife locks herself away in a separate room, else he will attack her either emotionally or physically. Our hope is that when he is 16 (he is 9 now) he goes into an assisted living facility.
My mum does have him at times and can give him undivided 1 on 1 attention and that works well, as long as he is the sole focus of attention.
Last edited by ryanb741; 26th August 2023 at 19:29.
Really wish you well with all this.
I fear you’ve crossed a line already if I’m honest.
your ceo and Hr are already prepped and 3 steps ahead by now.
Reality is what you make it. I stand by what I said.
OK, Ryan. Sorry to hear that. Sounds very tough.
Cheers Tony. This would all be much easier if we didn't love him, as he'd have been in care a long time ago. But we do love him dearly, this is not his fault, just how he was born, and we are his parents.
He gets on well with the dog though, that's a positive thing
Sorry to hear of your circumstances Ryan. I can't unfortunately provide any steer on your work question but send you my best wishes for the future. Take care.
Jesus Ryan. That sounds way worse than I’d imagined from your first post. I’d definitely be thinking of more specialist care in these circumstances. It sounds like it could well be the best option for everyone, though hard in reality
That sounds tough Ryan, best of luck for everything
I wish you all the best Ryan - you are doing an incredible job in really tough circumstances.
Joe
It really isn't....................
You can call a submarine - an aeroplane.............. Doesn't mean it's gonna fly.
But........... yeah - you're right.
I’m not a million miles away…BR2.
I have a 7 year old and a very caring wife.
I’d love to be able to offer some respite if you ever fancied meeting up and your son took to us as a family. (My sister has special needs and we seem to be a bit more understanding then usual folk and also get on well with children from a special needs background).
Sounds like you need some good friends to rally round mate, as much as your wife and son need/rely on you, it really seems you need a friend to lean on as well.
I’m the sole breadwinner in my household (although my wife I would dare say works harder managing the kids, home etc), without my wife’s support I don’t know how I’d function. I think what I’m trying to say is being a full time worker and carer must take its toll. I really feel for you mate.
I have no answers for you Ryan though you, and your family, certainly have my thoughts.
Whether your line of intent with regards to work is a wise one or not I commend your attitude towards seeking a solution. I hope you find it.
Hope things work out Ryan and clearly your son is the priority.My daughter has autism and while it took me a while to get my head around the situation I wouldn't change it.
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If you worked for me and told me you had been having discussions with a competitor I would fire you.
Provided your contract doesn’t have an exclusivity or non comp clause I would keep anything you do very quiet and just do it.
How much could you make if you consulted full time, compared to what you make today?
How much does your employer pay you for the 12 months you cannot go to the competition (in percentage of what you’re getting now)? [if the answer is nothing worth mentioning I believe the clause is not enforceable but check with a solicitor].
You need to have the answers to these questions Monday at the latest to understand how much margin you have to negotiate. It may be none at all.
I genuinely wish you all the best, for this episode of course but more importantly for your family.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
It is nearly impossible to enforce a non comp in the UK without paying the employee, usually garden leave, as you can’t stop someone earning their living
Last edited by adrianw; 26th August 2023 at 21:34.
That was my understanding too but don’t want to make Ryan’s situation worse with inaccurate information.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I’ve always been advised that other than to show intent there is no real point
Also my understanding.
Wishing you and your family all the best Ryan.
The reality is usually more complicated than what can be discussed on a forum.
Nevertheless, a few thoughts:
I can see that you are under immense pressure. Firstly, as a caring father and husband. That situation must be so difficult. Then you are also under financial pressure.
The answer to stress is never more stress. As such, how can you run a side job and still perform at your expected level in your main job? How would that work time wise? There is only one answer your boss will give you, and by just asking the question you are damaging your standing. Don't do it.
I'd rather look at finding a different solution. Maybe your job with the required time in the office and travels isn't the right job with such a demanding family situation? Maybe everybody would be better off if you spent more time around your family and you'd need less of the expensive child care?
Sometimes the answer is not more but less. Just a thought.
In any case, all the best for you and the family.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Good luck Ryan. Like a lot of the posts above my company would take a dim view of anything seen as a COI however are pretty tolerant of directorships. Those take 12-20 days a year and are adjacencies not direct conflict but who knows - especially given the salary reduction you have to think a reasonable employer would at least be open to listen.
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Worth remembering that HR departments are mostly there to protect the company, not the employee.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Hi Ryan, when you are caring for others it is very important to look after your own mental wellbeing and be compassionate towards yourself. Mindfulness isn't for everyone but does help a lot of people to cope with stressful and challenging situations, enabling them to better support their loved ones, and may be worth exploring.
The Mindful Life exists to help Carers to cope with stress and difficult emotions using mindfulness-based approaches. They offer a completely free four module online introductory mindfulness course and subsequent weekly guided meditations aimed specifically at Carers. A half hour mind break and recharge can make all the difference to you and those who you support. I often join them on a Wednesday evening.
https://www.themindfullife.co.uk/
https://www.themindfullife.co.uk/introductory
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
The only person looking after and protecting the employee, is the employee.
True.
And the moment HR are involved it’s all documented and 100% on the record too. I’d never loop in HR until its the last resort.
You mentioned that you have a productive relationship with your CEO so can just the two of you discuss this (face to face ideally) and off the record too?
Best of luck.
Thanks for all the comments of support gents.
Yes I'll do that. He personally hired me and I worked with him at my previous employer also so I do have a good relationship with him.
Good, use that real and deep relationship to your betterment as well as his as your boss. It’s the best way to go I believe Ryan.
All the best mate.
Hi Ryan,
To quote Raffe's post, it's clear you are under a lot of pressure at the moment. I was thinking that it might be helpful for you to get some respite care for your son and family so you have a bit of space to think. I'm passing on the details of an organisation which might be able to help. White Lodge is in Chertsey, Surrey and one of the services they offer is short breaks/respite for disabled children.
https://www.whitelodgecentre.co.uk/o...entre-treetops
https://www.whitelodgecentre.co.uk/w...e/short-breaks
Best of luck for you and the family.
Many thanks for this.
Currently we have social services trying to get respite care support which will be hugely helpful, fingers crossed.
Last edited by ryanb741; 27th August 2023 at 22:59.
Just to add that Social Service budgets are extremely limited so if they are aware that you have been financing care yourself they won’t necessarily be in any hurry. You need to keep pushing and if necessary explain that you cannot continue as you are and that you are struggling not just financially but that the current situation is impacting severely on your own physical and mental health - don’t be afraid to remind them that full time residential care will cost them exponentially more than regular respite. Unfortunately, in these types of circumstances help is prioritised and if you aren’t banging their door down someone else will be pushed ahead of you potentially (probably).
This this and thrice this! I'd be worried at best that they think you have time to do more work and will load you with more crap or at worse putting the company at risk as per other posts.
Best to play it with explaining the context of impact of the loss of earnings, the current family situation (and any timescales of change) and ask them if there is some flexibility on the finances i.e. your wages or better paid roles in the company (but I'm sure you'd have already looked into this). You want to be transparent that you have been approached to provide some consultancy work but would naturally prefer to use what time you have for caring for the family and current company workload etc what support can they offer?
If you go in with I have other stuff lined up and the names make them twitchy HR will be there to stitch you up, especially if in this current climate things are tight in the company and they think can drop you with no compensation and add your job to someone else for free.
Personally I'd be using your recognition to get better paid roles with the other companies rather than trust your current one to show the slightest bit of loyalty hence Tony comment re naive.
Good luck
Different angle, how long have you been there? If times are tough for them, what’s your redundancy package - likely if you are on a high OTE that it might not work out as good as others if based in basic vs any bonus inclusion.
Although enough years there & could be worthwhile. I have a friend who has 18yrs service and they are almost begging him not to take the redundancy from the costs, he is well up for it, many years if not having to work whilst looking for another role, or land one quickly & kerching!
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I may be being stupid here but surely they could just give him 12 weeks at statutory? Which is worth very little but all legally you have to give.
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Depends on the company, I’ve always had 4 weeks gross for every year worked, once beyond the 2yr loophole. With a good number of years service you are almost too expensive to get rid of.
With my last sentence, I have proof of the years worked vs pay off vs salary, as HR screwed up properly when I was working for a really shocking client. Told me all I needed to about the HR team, competence and stark reality.
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Depends on contract [as always].
I've read through the thread and have to say that I really do have sympathy for you and your family - it's no fun at all.
Re work, I'd make sure I had a really good understanding of what was in my contract. As an example, my own contract is silent on what I may or may not do, other than prohibiting contact with our customers on my own account or working for or with competitors. However, there's a huge catch-all that says that working on anything for myself inside my work hours is absolutely prohibited; so if I'm emailing clients 0900-1800 or ringing them I'm contravening my contract. The other thing is that any work I produce is deemed to be the property of my employer unless it's obviously not part of my employment - the contract states "This will exclude only those works originated, conceived, written, or made by you wholly outside your normal working hours which are totally unconnected with this employment."
The other thing is how you communicate this to your boss. I'd be honest that I was considering working for X, this is what I'd be doing, I could do it at the weekend, that sort of thing. It's more than your contract requires, but it's all about selling this to your boss as something that in no way threatens the company. I'd also be very honest about the fact that you're reluctant to do it and would prefer to have a revised compensation plan for the next year, even if it means you taking a (say) 25% reduction rather than 60% than start working outside but your son means you have little option.
Finally, I'd start looking outside for a permanent move just in case. I have no idea of your industry or role, but we all know that absolutely no-one is indispensable.
Were I to be your boss I'd be concerned that one of my key people was looking to increase their workload at a time when, given that the company is struggling, they really need you to focus on rebuilding. I'd be looking carefully to see if you were continuing to perform, so you need to make sure you're at the top of your game - easy for me to say, much harder to carry out.
Good luck. Children may be a blessing but they can really put you through it.
Just as aside - my academic contracts not only allowed for unlimited consultancy without permission many lacks the basics of exclusivity of service!
One of the few things I miss from Higher Education.
You´ve really gotta be your own advocate, it´s like Hungry Hippos, there is nowhere near enough to go around. Very tough for some of the older generation who´re not used to asking, jostling, pushing.
Good luck Ryan.
Last edited by Passenger; 29th August 2023 at 11:02.
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