I'm due to get some roofing work done.
New guttering ,soffits and fascias ( black PVC )and a bit of tile work. No scaffolding involved.
Job is just over 6k
The guy is a small operation and did a good job of replacing some rotten timber soffits for me last year on my extension so decided to get the whole house done this year as the old timber ones were starting to show their age.
So the roofer messaged me this morning to say they would start the job next week and could I send him a 50% deposit to cover the materials.
50% seems pretty excessive to me.
I'd probably be happy enough at 25% to let him buy what's needed but I'm wary if I stump up 50% that the job gets delayed and I need to chase him up.
What do folks think is reasonable to pay up front.
There will be a lot of guttering and fascia to buy so that will be a substantial cost but surely not 50%.
Anyone had recent experience of what's normally asked?
Just had a new roof on one of my rentals. Part replacement slate with fibre cement on the back, some pointing and a new Velux (fitting only).
About 7k in total. 40% deposit week before commencement. Bit of a faith leap as you never know, so it’s a risk.
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50% sounds fair to me one week in advance. If you’ve worked with the outfit before that’s hopefully comfort enough.
I’ve often paid 50% deposit to tradesmen in advance. Usually much more in advance than one week. It can be worrying if you don’t know them.
Always makes me think their cash flow management must be dire. What short of business doesn’t have enough cash to cover material for the next project?
That said it seems a pretty standard request. If you don’t pay then trust and good will is gone before you start.
It may just be that the tradesmen try to cover themselves from the customers who don’t pay once work is completed.Originally Posted by Montello
At least they’ve got half the cash already and they know that the customer is good for it.
Has to work both ways I suppose.
Granted, but if they do a decent job why would they have any worry about being paid?
If they do work for a main contractor they won’t be getting 50% up front.
Either way I think the OP either trusts the guy and pays or needs to find someone else who won’t request a deposit.
We had some building work done for around £60k before Covid and it took about 20 weeks. My builder invoiced me £3k at the end of each week for the 20 weeks.
That seemed a great way of working/invoicing to me.
[QUOTE=Montello;6245663]Always makes me think their cash flow management must be dire. What short of business doesn’t have enough cash to cover material for the next project?
That said it seems a pretty standard request. If you don’t pay then trust and good will is gone before you start.[/QUOTE]
Yeh that's my thoughts.
He knows there's zero chance of me defaulting on payment
No chance id ever give a tradesman 50% upfront, been burnt by them too many times in the past.
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Because tradesmen get messed about enough times and then they get wise to it, they wont work without regular up to date pay and a half decent deposit usually. They may have turned down other jobs to be with someone and have bills like everyone else so it is very serious to them.
We have quite a few trades people as clients and I think many of them ask for a deposit up front to cover materials nowadays. Seems to be fairly common.
Even doing a good job doesn’t always mean getting paid so I guess they are trying to minimise risk to their business (and cash flow possibly).
Do people really not pay if a decent jobs has been done? I guess there are a few nasty people around but I’d expect decent work gets paid for 99% of the time. Just like every other industry. Nothing unique about trades.
I recently had a survey done, guy did all the work, sent all the files and then an invoice. Then I paid. No deposit required.
My BIL/SIL put £10k upfront to a building company, and shortly after the building company declared bankruptcy. They didn’t see a penny of their £10k back and just became a creditor of a company that had no money.
It is not always the tradesman that gets messed about.
50% upfront is pretty standard for a job like that.
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I dont take a deposit unless its a to order item, then its 100% of the special stuff only at point of order. For a job like this i would want an interim when i have it all stripped.
I’d be ok with 50% if the materials were delivered to my house. Especially as you’ve used him before.
So you basically buying the materials
Okay. Thanks for advice.
He’s suggested for me to buy the materials so okay with that.
Hopefully just my job in the order lol.
I recently did a similar job, although plus scaffolding and paid on completion!
Easy enough to check that off tbh. I had black fascia and soffit and guttering done recently. Around 25 linear metres and I bought the materials. Was around £850 iirc.
I had new external doors 3k,and roofing with facias and gutters 3k last year and didn’t pay anything upfront for either
I had my flat dormer roof felt, ply and supports removed, new supports, ply, and firestone rubber membrane fitted, new upvc trim all around. Also the main roof tiles were removed, new felt and battons fitted, tiles refitted, new crown tiles fitted, new upvc facias, plus scaffolding required etc. Total cost £4k, nothing paid up front in 2021. Same company removed my garage roof last year, new rafters and ply, firestone membrane plus upvc trim, £1.6k nothing required up front again.
Unless materials are to be manufactured bespoke for a job why would a reputable company with good cash flow need standard materials paid for in advance? If the customer lets them down they can return them or use them on the next job or jobs. I'd be very concerned about a company going bust with my deposit in their account if they can't afford some wood and tiles.
You’d think as a tradesman they have an account so probably won’t pay upfront anyway
Yes, good point.
Not all good tradesmen make good businessmen. Many struggle with cashflow, some prefer customers to pay for materials to lesson their risk and outlay, some want to keep turnover under the VAT threshold, and some are just poor at managing their finances. That's not a reflection on a tradesman ability to do a great job though.
Often plumbers, joiners, roofers, electricians, bricklayers etc. learn the trade skills in college and then on the job, and in general are brilliant at it and often end up being self employed or running their own small business as a result. However they're not often taught how to run a small business, not taught how to manage money, how to arrange their tax affairs, how to deal with customers, how to manage workload and admin and all the other things that are needed to manage a small business.
I think that all trades college courses should have a large part of business studies course built-in, as learning the 'trade' is only half of the job unless you intend to work for a larger firm for your career.
I've had the builders here since March, with our garden room they required staged payments, 20% at 28 days before commencement when the contract is signed, a further 30% upon commencement, 30% when the roof was on and sealed and 20% when the job was completed to my satisfaction, so effectively, like you, 50% up front. The landscapers required 3 stage payments, 33% on the day of commencement, 33% at the beginning of the third week and 34% when completed to my satisfaction. Didn't really bother me at all, materials need to be bought before the job starts and the companies I used are local and both have stellar reputations. Both provided contracts which were signed before any payments were made which stated the payment plans and detailed building methods, risk assessments etc, etc.
My roof was completely stripped ,replaced .No upfront charge.
Can you pay the deposit via Credit or Debit card ?
They can't be doing much business if they manage that.
Some builders have you buy the materials, and have you directly pay the trades (who do not work for the builder), that way keeping himself as a project manager and like a one man band below the VAT threshold.
Ah I see. I was thinking of the roofing company that did my house and garage. It's his company, the boys are his employees, and he buys the materials. I suppose he sees paying vat etc as a fair price for having total control over the process.
You'd be surprised. Take your average one man band tradesman who works with a labourer and gets customers to buy materials. They'll charge approx £250 per day, plus £125 for a labourer per day. Working 235 days a year that's an income of £88,125 assuming that's all on the books. With the odd cash job here and there, keeping below the £85k VAT threshold isn't difficult for a tradesman.
I'm partner in a construction company that's been Vat reg since incorporation and often see non Vat reg businesses, many doing significantly more than the VAT threshold annually. I don't know how some get away with it, but they do.
As post above I was thinking of the company who did my roof. But yes, I can see how the books can be massaged if not actually cooked. Thanks.
I've never paid anyone up front for materials or whatever.
At my last house I had a two storey extension built and never paid a penny until the job was finished.
Bankruptcy in smallish firms is always a worrying possibility. My neighbours up the road had all new windows fitted, fortunately just before the business declared bankruptcy!
Cheers,
Neil.
If a builder is established and reputable they'll have an account and will be getting the materials now and paying for them later. Should you cancel then they will have no problem returning the materials.
If they are unable to get the materials on account, then that tells you exactly what their supplier thinks of them.
No chance I'd be paying them in advance. I'd explain the above and ask if they still want the work.
Fair enough if it's something custom made, but not for standard materials like this.
50% on a 6 grand job ?
Tell him to Foxtrot Oscar..
Have you bought the materials ?
Not too many people with recent experience posting!
Take the majority of advice on here and you be looking for a new contractor rather than one who's done good work for you in the past. Bear in mind that the likelihood is your new contractor will also want part payment up front.
We recently moved house (well, 20 months ago) and since then we've hired 6 different contractors (actually more than that but these were for the bigger jobs) to carry out works ranging from designing and fitting custom wardrobes, to supplying and fitting plantation shutters to the whole ground floor, designing and building a large custom cupboard and shelving unit in the living room, designing and fitting a bespoke monitored alarm system, building a garden room to our design, and laying 100sqm of paving, creating flowers beds, installing a pergola. The cheapest of these jobs was a couple of grand, the most expensive many tens of thousands but the two things all these contractors and craftsmen had in common was a lengthy waiting list and part payment up front - 5 of them required 50% and 1 required 33%. Most of these contractors were sourced with rock solid referrals from people we know who had done business with them in the past, or people we had done business with before, but one was a complete leap of faith as he was found on the internet and came down from Leicester to complete the work. We haven't had any issues with any of them.
With high inflation and material costs constantly rising the days of having work done without having to pay a certain amount up front are long gone. There will always be outliers of course but my recent experience shows me that decent contractors and craftsmen will require payment up front so do your due diligence, get all the referrals you can and you shouldn't go far wrong.
Why? The OP states "guy is a small operation and did a good job". Good trades people are hard to come by. The very best trades people are booked up for months and can pick and choose their work.
I'm reading a lot of people would prefer a tradesman that's good at managing cashflow rather than one that's good at the actual job you want them to do.
If the OP trusts the roofer, knows he will turn up when he says, and he'll do a good job, and is happy with the quote and willing to pay for materials upfront for a job next week, there's no reason to tell him to F-Off. Unless of course he wants to find another roofer that doesn't want a deposit.
And if you can find a roofer that can start next week and doesn't want a deposit I'd be questing if they're any good.
This is the way I do big jobs,I don’t usually ask for a deposit,but to be honest I’ve started.
There’s plenty of customers who don’t pay straight away,which then messes with your cash flow on the next job .
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Why ?? Because the OP came here to suggest he wasn't over the moon about parting with it anyway.
I ran my own building business for 40 yrs until 12 months ago and never asked anybody for 50% deposit.
I'd ask for a grand to book them a slot them stage payments in line with work as it was ongoing.
3 grand from 6 grand is a p!ss take for such a piddling little job.
That's why....
Also, what if it was a 60, 70 or 80 grand job......would your "ok with 50%" apply then ?
I find this all a bit strange,the guy has worked for him before so I would expect a bit of trust really from both parties.
It’s not like he’s got is number out of yellow pages .
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[QUOTE=mk1974;6246172]I find this all a bit strange,the guy has worked for him before so I would expect a bit of trust really from both parties.
It’s not like he’s got is number out of yellow pages[QUOTE]
He is Scottish though
In all the jobs I've had done over the last 2 years I've agreed up front that I will pay for the materials direct to the supplier via my credit card, and then pay the labour rate on demand. Sometimes this is at the end of every day, and sometimes it runs up to a week, but never longer than that.
And not sure where the "can start next week" comment comes from either. The roofer I used I had to wait a few months on both occasions and was perfectly happy with that, but he was true to his word and didn't require money up front.
Last edited by Ruggertech; 19th July 2023 at 20:02.
We ask for 10% deposit to reserve resources for the job. When materials are delivered on day one we ask for the next payment (the client then having comfort of the materials being on site). On a job of this type it would be 40% then and then the balance payable on completion.
Just to reply to various answers
The guy offered I pay the materials myself.
I did that yesterday on credit card
Materials were £3150 and will be delivered to my house.
Guy probably realised I was slightly reticent about paying 50% up front.
Regards starting next week as opposed to a 2-3 mt wait -I have been waiting 2-3 mts but he messaged this week saying he could start next week.
Last job was the same but I was very impressed with standard.
Seems to call himself a slater as opposed to roofer. Who knew there was a difference.
Again thanks for comments.
Jeez, that was cheap!! My garage roof replaced 2 years ago cost 5k...
Will your builders travel down south??
I was very happy with the price, and the job, but its only an 8' x 20' flat roof job on a concrete prefab garage. No tiles or apex or anything.
And I doubt they'll travel ;)
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