institutionally anti cyclist?

[earlofsodbury]

There is a point that gets little attention when these arguments kick-off. It goes much further than Drivers vs. Cyclists. It has two components:

1. The attitude of car drivers that driving is a Right, and not a privilege.

2. A car driven aggressively or incompetently or intoxicated is a lethal weapon.

There is a mindless insistence by the overwhelming majority of drivers upon the first, and a wilful ignorance of the second.

Thus results the hate, death-threats, dangerous driving and deliberate assaults against pedestrians, cyclists, horse-riders, protesters, and the like.

Worse still is the failure of magistrates to sufficiently punish vehicular crimes. There are rather few cyclists around here, but their deaths are never taken seriously, and the drivers involved are only lightly punished. Pretty much any excuse or extenuating circumstance is accepted, especially when no witnesses are present, and even when drugs, drink, demonstrably high speeds, significant previous, lack of licence, &c, &c, are involved.

This latter statement is true of most vehicular crime locally - no matter how abysmal the record, the repeat drug / drink / speeding / careless / unlicensed / uninsured / stolen-vehicle / &c, &c offences - makes no difference. They just have to mention needing to drive for a job, or having children [born without legs, seemingly], and the lightest-possible punishment is meted-out. This is typically a short ban + fine + a course to attend. Most are straight back on the road sans all legal appurtenances and blind-eyes-turned all round!

Some cyclists riding like cocks is a MINOR INCONVENIENCE TO YOU - man-up, grow-up, and back-off. That should be a matter of basic human decency and not need the law to enforce it!

[murkeywaters]

I think the main issue is weekend cyclists, they are out on the roads for pleasure reasons and not commuting so cycle in groups, this infuriates drivers who mostly are going somewhere and not on a pleasure drive, yes drivers need to be patient but the cyclists need to see it from the drivers angle too.

See it like this, if your up behind a tractor then most drivers will just say it’s a hold up as it’s a working farmer, but if it’s a peloton then the drivers feel as if they are being held up out of someone’s selfishness..


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[chrisparker]

I think the main issue is weekend cyclists, they are out on the roads for pleasure reasons and not commuting so cycle in groups, this infuriates drivers who mostly are going somewhere and not on a pleasure drive, yes drivers need to be patient but the cyclists need to see it from the drivers angle too.

See it like this, if your up behind a tractor then most drivers will just say it’s a hold up as it’s a working farmer, but if it’s a peloton then the drivers feel as if they are being held up out of someone’s selfishness..


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Those selfish weekend cyclists are just regular folks trying to keep fit, heaven forbid they add an extra few seconds to the journey time of those wanting to get to the shops.

[J J Carter]

Drivers beware: the rise of the vigilante cyclist

‘I don’t think I’m even in the top ten cyclists reporting bad drivers in London,’ Cycling Mikey tells me over the phone. ‘There were almost 15,000 reports last year that led to the police taking action. And I only submitted 383 reports in total.’

It's clear that some cyclists festoon themselves with GoPros and then try and provoke incidents for clicks. They jump red lights, ride on the pavement etc. then throw a hissy fit if a motorist gets within 3m of their back wheel. So many entitled lycra louts on the roads.

[wildheart]

I'll try and lighten the mood. My village gets infested with cyclist every weekend, most come in their cars park up and then race around the country side. They don't bother me, but it does antagonise my partner.
I have to sit on several cycle forums as it is part of my job, so I get to hear from both parties.

This funny situation happened to me:
I'm a Blue Badge user I came into work and was going to park my car in a Blue Badge Bay, a cyclist was chaining their bike (with a basket) to the railings within the bay. I asked why they were doing so. The young lady said the cycle racks were full, I replied I can't really use the bay as I will trap your bike? She replied 'You can park elsewhere...I am saving the planet!' I shook my head and did as ordered, I did contact facilities management and it was moved. It still makes me smile.

[bry nylon]

Some very good, sensible posts have been put up since I posted early this morning, too many to reply to individually but cheers, makes me realise and appreciate that we do have a lot of calm, reasoned posters on these boards.

[smokey99]

I'm an active participant in a number of threads on here as a keen cyclist, motorcyclist and driver. I have been known to walk and run along country lanes too.

I agree that all of these cycling threads generally all too quickly descend into car v's cyclist media whipped up nonsense. To me it's all simply about tolerance and patience. Despite what any of us might think about our specific journey we should not automatically feel entitled to assume that what we are doing is any more important or justifiable than what anyone else is doing. I can't help but wonder if these people who fly into catatonic rages at the mere sight of lycra (why do thy always feel obliged to mention what anyone is wearing?) do the same when they come across horse riders (a common thing in my neck of the woods)?

Well said. Another fairly depressing thread consisting (mostly) of moaning, wingeing and tribalism.

Probably says more about British small island mentality than it does about either type road user.

As ever there are plenty of unreasonable people on both sides but overall it does feel like it stems from car driver’s unwillingness to accept cyclists as equal road users.

I’m not a cyclist and have no affiliation to the community. But then I don’t drive on country lanes and get held up on a regular basis.


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[Meesterbond]

Just one observation, I've cycled for many years and have held up traffic in lots of different countries but have only ever been abused for it in the UK.

Is it a media thing, who seem to exist purely to vilify different groups? A class / pecking order thing - 'I must be better than you because I've got a nice car and you're only on a bike?'... or maybe they were just jealous of my awesome calves?

[monogroover]

A personal bug bear is when cyclists don't use the cycle lanes - seems to be primarily the recreational cyclists (MAMILs) and I wonder if they do this because using the cycle lane means they ride slower than on the main road?

I never use cycle lanes - around these parts (NW Leics) they're often littered with stones, bits of glass and pedestrians. The Highway Code asserts that they should be used “where they make your journey safer and easier”, but it's not compulsory to do so in any event.

[murkeywaters]

Those selfish weekend cyclists are just regular folks trying to keep fit, heaven forbid they add an extra few seconds to the journey time of those wanting to get to the shops.

But thats where a lot of the rage comes from, someone doing something for pleasure that then impacts someone else's life in a negative way.

You could say the drivers are selfish for wanting all the road which would also be correct, thing is any road use on any type of wheels stirs these emotions in people, just the way we are as humans or UK humans!

I started a thread on here a long time ago about cyclists having insurance, perhaps it should be mandatory especially with the cost of bikes, it protects not just themselves but other road users and pedestrians.

[MrSmith]

“ started a thread on here a long time ago about cyclists having insurance, perhaps it should be mandatory especially with the cost of bikes, it protects not just themselves but other road users and pedestrians.”

I’m all for having liability/3rd party insurance, I have it for cycling but mainly for the legal cover should a motorist try to injure/kill me which is obviously far more likely to happen than me injuring them but feel it should only be compulsory when the 1 million uninsured drivers have been removed from the roads.

[bry nylon]

yes I have insurance as well, through Cycling UK. My club insist on it for all full members.

came into play when I pursued a civil claim in my big crash. The lawyers would have taken 25% of the payout had I not had it. I never had to pay them one penny.

apologies for poking the hornets nest with this thread :)

Just that I was astonished at the outcome (and others tbf), of the case that I linked to in my first post..

[blackal]

A bit sweary……………

https://youtu.be/dwljUm6Z-Ug

[chrisparker]

But thats where a lot of the rage comes from, someone doing something for pleasure that then impacts someone else's life in a negative way.

You could say the drivers are selfish for wanting all the road which would also be correct, thing is any road use on any type of wheels stirs these emotions in people, just the way we are as humans or UK humans!

I started a thread on here a long time ago about cyclists having insurance, perhaps it should be mandatory especially with the cost of bikes, it protects not just themselves but other road users and pedestrians.

I remember that thread. My response to such things is always this - any barriers into cycling such as mandatory insurance, compulsory helmets, cycle tax, bike MOTs, cycling practical and theory tests and such like, would improve the quality of cyclists on the road. But any measures would also discourage people from cycling and put them in cars instead.

And if you've ever sat in a traffic jam, the last thing you want is more people in cars and fewer on bikes.

[draftsmann]

I’m all for having liability/3rd party insurance, I have it for cycling but mainly for the legal cover should a motorist try to injure/kill me which is obviously far more likely to happen than me injuring them but feel it should only be compulsory when the 1 million uninsured drivers have been removed from the roads.

How is that supposed to make any sense?

Common sense is that everyone using any self-propelled vehicle, any mechanically propelled vehicle or any horse or horse propelled vehicle in a public place should have compulsory third party insurance. A level playing field. If there is a cogent argument to the contrary I’ve yet to hear it.

There should be heavy penalties for not being insured- both financial penalties and a ban on using any vehicle (motor or other) or horse in public; and imprisonment for contravening such a ban.

Dealing robustly with uninsured road users would create a strong deterrent. And for any claims resulting from the acts of those who fail to obtain insurance, the existing Motor Insurers’ Bureau scheme for compensating victims of uninsured drivers could and should be replicated by a levy on insurers of cyclists and horse riders etc.

[NigeG]

I remember that thread. My response to such things is always this - any barriers into cycling such as mandatory insurance, compulsory helmets, cycle tax, bike MOTs, cycling practical and theory tests and such like, would improve the quality of cyclists on the road. But any measures would also discourage people from cycling and put them in cars instead.

And if you've ever sat in a traffic jam, the last thing you want is more people in cars and fewer on bikes.

All those barriers to entry are the very same as those that apply to motorcycles.

And when you’re sat in the traffic jam you’ll potentially wish you were actually on a bike (one with an engine not one you have to pedal)


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[deepreddave]

I drive and occasionally cycle so see both sides. I often think it would be educational for motorists to have to cycle a few miles so as to understand the cyclist's perspective. In the main I find motorists increasingly respectful but those that are not either have no idea how vulnerable a cyclist can be, to cars, car doors, potholes etc or never imagine the cyclist is their daughter, son, mother etc because if they did they would drive more carefully.

Motorists who risk the lives of cyclists through a lack of consideration or control really need to give their heads a shake and ask why they're so self entitled.

[adrianw]

Now all the cyclists have found this thread, what is a reasonable time for a car to sit behind cyclists two abreast, before the cyclist should go to single file?

[oldoakknives]

Well said. Another fairly depressing thread consisting (mostly) of moaning, wingeing and tribalism.

Probably says more about British small island mentality than it does about either type road user.

As ever there are plenty of unreasonable people on both sides but overall it does feel like it stems from car driver’s unwillingness to accept cyclists as equal road users.

I’m not a cyclist and have no affiliation to the community. But then I don’t drive on country lanes and get held up on a regular basis.


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Cheers, best laugh I've had in ages!

[Pitfitter]

Now all the cyclists have found this thread, what is a reasonable time for a car to sit behind cyclists two abreast, before the cyclist should go to single file?

Or a reasonable time before they check behind them and see me creeping along at a reasonable distance waiting for a chance to pass safely.

[Montello]

I think the main issue is weekend cyclists, they are out on the roads for pleasure reasons and not commuting so cycle in groups, this infuriates drivers who mostly are going somewhere and not on a pleasure drive, yes drivers need to be patient but the cyclists need to see it from the drivers angle too.

So if I’m driving to work and get held up by a car being used by someone driving to the cinema purely for their selfish pleasure does my journey have more validity than theirs as I’m on my way to work and as such should they get out of my way?

How do you know if a cyclist dressed in Lycra isn’t on their way to work? Bit of an assumption. Two of my riding buddies are in the Police and share the same shift pattern and cycle 30 miles each way to work. They dress just like your typical sports cyclist and ride as a pair, often on weekends as they do shifts.

[Montello]

Now all the cyclists have found this thread, what is a reasonable time for a car to sit behind cyclists two abreast, before the cyclist should go to single file?

Depends … if it’s safe for the car to pass then immediately. If singling out would encourage the car to make an unsafe pass I’d wait until their was a safe area or pull over if there is a passing space.

Do you have the same frustrations when you are held up by someone riding a horse which is typically travelling much slower than a cyclist and is more difficult to pass?

[walkerwek1958]

I enjoy running and walking on paths and tracks, so do the off- road cyclist brigade. I’ve nothing against them, but the no- bell prizewinners annoy me greatly! If they had a bell, and used it, all would be well, but too many of them don’t have one.

Ring the bloody bell and I know you’re coming up behind me so I’ll move out if your way.......what’s hard about that! They spend big money on the bikes and the lycra, why not spend a bit more and fit a bell?

[adrianw]

Depends … if it’s safe for the car to pass then immediately. If singling out would encourage the car to make an unsafe pass I’d wait until their was a safe area or pull over if there is a passing space.

Do you have the same frustrations when you are held up by someone riding a horse which is typically travelling much slower than a cyclist and is more difficult to pass?

Invariably horse riders pull out of the way or stop at the first opportunity, the same can’t be said for cyclists

[adrianw]

I enjoy running and walking on paths and tracks, so do the off- road cyclist brigade. I’ve nothing against them, but the no- bell prizewinners annoy me greatly! If they had a bell, and used it, all would be well, but too many of them don’t have one.

Ring the bloody bell and I know you’re coming up behind me so I’ll move out if your way.......what’s hard about that! They spend big money on the bikes and the lycra, why not spend a bit more and fit a bell?

It’s better than that, when they bought the bike it had a bell, most shops won’t sell a bike without one.

[deepreddave]

Depends … if it’s safe for the car to pass then immediately. If singling out would encourage the car to make an unsafe pass I’d wait until their was a safe area or pull over if there is a passing space.

This. Safety should be everyone's priority, rather than drivers' unreasonable frustrations at being delayed by another road user. There are far too many s on the road in both cyclists and drivers but we're all better off exercising a little patience and consideration.

[NigeG]

I enjoy running and walking on paths and tracks, so do the off- road cyclist brigade. I’ve nothing against them, but the no- bell prizewinners annoy me greatly! If they had a bell, and used it, all would be well, but too many of them don’t have one.

Ring the bloody bell and I know you’re coming up behind me so I’ll move out if your way.......what’s hard about that! They spend big money on the bikes and the lycra, why not spend a bit more and fit a bell?

By the same token IF I am out walking on say a disused railway line, that has been surfaced nicely to suit walking and cycling, and we are three abreast. Should we move over or go into single file when someone on a pushbike comes up behind us and wants to pass? Or should we carry on until the path gets wider and they can pass safely?

And imagine the outrage caused if a car driver used the horn to tell the cyclist there’s a quicker vehicle behind them.


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[sweets]

I see people on all sides aggressively asserting their "rights" on our roads in a way I was unused to until about 4-5 years ago.
Cyclists taking up large parts of the road.
Pedestrians taking a long time to dawdle across the road, making cyclists and other road users wait.
Motorists being aggressive with road positioning and tailgating (well, this is an older habit, but more common now).
And even the new breeds like scooters hogging pavements, or assuming that because they don't have a legal classification of their own, they need not follow rules.

I think in general our population is a lot less understanding and tolerant of others, whether that be different types of road user, or the same type but in a different vehicle.
I find it quite perturbing how assertive over others we, as a nation, have become, at the expense of courtesy and tolerance.

This is not taking a side, I firmly believe that all sides are worse than they were.

[murkeywaters]

So if I’m driving to work and get held up by a car being used by someone driving to the cinema purely for their selfish pleasure does my journey have more validity than theirs as I’m on my way to work and as such should they get out of my way?

How do you know if a cyclist dressed in Lycra isn’t on their way to work? Bit of an assumption. Two of my riding buddies are in the Police and share the same shift pattern and cycle 30 miles each way to work. They dress just like your typical sports cyclist and ride as a pair, often on weekends as they do shifts.

Your being pedantic as I'm sure your smart enough to know what I mean but I'll play, if a car was in front of me/you or most other drivers and its traveling at say 20mph in a 40mph zone for a reasonable length of time then yes its going to aggravate you regardless of the need of their journey, I said similar in the post you quoted but you edited out my sentence giving an example of pleasure cyclists taking up a road.

See it like this, if your up behind a tractor then most drivers will just say it’s a hold up as it’s a working farmer, but if it’s a peloton then the drivers feel as if they are being held up out of someone’s selfishness..

Regarding your police buddies, I would have no problem at all as long as they respect other road users and dont create tail backs or push drivers into dangerous overtakes..

[trident-7]

I'm deliberately avoiding reading this thread because I expect it'll have polarised into cyclists v cyclist haters. If so it'll really piss me off because whoever is in the right or in the wrong, it's always the cyclist who ends up dead.

[bry nylon]

I started the thread to highlight poor sentencing outcomes for cyclists (pedestrians often get the same treatment), but it degenerated into drivers vs cyclists and only a few posters addressed the legal angle. I guess I should have known the the likely outcome and I will resist the urge to start a similar thread in future. As I said before though, it is good to see we have a lot of calm, reasonable folk on here who drive and cycle with care and consideration to other road users..
but yeah- there are a lot of selfish d*ckheads on the roads & some of them might be on two wheels..

[ryanb741]

I never use cycle lanes - around these parts (NW Leics) they're often littered with stones, bits of glass and pedestrians. The Highway Code asserts that they should be used “where they make your journey safer and easier”, but it's not compulsory to do so in any event.

That's fair enough. Round here (SW London) the cycle lanes are modern and well maintained and part of a cycle highway as this specific area has very well regarded cycle routes (eg Kingston to Hampton Court Palace).

I'd say in the main most cyclists here are well experienced and courteous. Motorists the same. You get the odd bad behaviour (either cyclists riding 2 abreast on busy roads during rush hour or motorists trying dangerous overtakes, often on said busy roads where there is a 20 MPH speed limit and the cyclist is already doing 20 mph anyway!) But these tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

If you are lucky enough to live in an area that cyclists choose to frequent it is because there is a lot of nice scenery to view so that's a blessing!

[Passenger]

That's fair enough. Round here (SW London) the cycle lanes are modern and well maintained and part of a cycle highway as this specific area has very well regarded cycle routes (eg Kingston to Hampton Court Palace).

I'd say in the main most cyclists here are well experienced and courteous. Motorists the same. You get the odd bad behaviour (either cyclists riding 2 abreast on busy roads during rush hour or motorists trying dangerous overtakes, often on said busy roads where there is a 20 MPH speed limit and the cyclist is already doing 20 mph anyway!) But these tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

If you are lucky enough to live in an area that cyclists choose to frequent it is because there is a lot of nice scenery to view so that's a blessing!

Ain't just luck it's funding R, Leicestershire is one of those chronically underfunded places historically speaking...deprived, in need of levelling up, like much of the place outside London and the south, generally speaking.

[cbh]

Not really sure what Ryan's going on about, a few of the cycle paths are just about ok, most are covered in debris, broken bottles etc.

Most roads around here SW London/Surrey are in a terrible state, potholes everywhere, just the same as the rest of the country!

[Passenger]

Not really sure what Ryan's going on about, a few of the cycle paths are just about ok, most are covered in debris, broken bottles etc.

Most roads around here SW London/Surrey are in a terrible state, potholes everywhere, just the same as the rest of the country!

Ah that makes sense, chimes with my 12 year old memories of the place, SW London I mean...Is it just possible that priority would be given around such Royal tourist attractions as Hampton Court, keeping up appearances as t'were.

[Longblackcoat]

Ah that makes sense, chimes with my 12 year old memories of the place, SW London I mean...Is it just possible that priority would be given around such Royal tourist attractions as Hampton Court, keeping up appearances as t'were.

I live half a mile from Hampton Court and the roads are utterly shit!

[ryanb741]

I stand corrected then, although on the Kingston-Ham-Richmond route the roads seem pretty decent (Richmond Road route)

[skmark]

I see people on all sides aggressively asserting their "rights" on our roads in a way I was unused to until about 4-5 years ago.
Cyclists taking up large parts of the road.
Pedestrians taking a long time to dawdle across the road, making cyclists and other road users wait.
Motorists being aggressive with road positioning and tailgating (well, this is an older habit, but more common now).
And even the new breeds like scooters hogging pavements, or assuming that because they don't have a legal classification of their own, they need not follow rules.

I think in general our population is a lot less understanding and tolerant of others, whether that be different types of road user, or the same type but in a different vehicle.
I find it quite perturbing how assertive over others we, as a nation, have become, at the expense of courtesy and tolerance.

This is not taking a side, I firmly believe that all sides are worse than they were.

This 100% !

I enjoy running and walking on paths and tracks, so do the off- road cyclist brigade. I’ve nothing against them, but the no- bell prizewinners annoy me greatly! If they had a bell, and used it, all would be well, but too many of them don’t have one.

Ring the bloody bell and I know you’re coming up behind me so I’ll move out if your way.......what’s hard about that! They spend big money on the bikes and the lycra, why not spend a bit more and fit a bell?

I cycle on roads and off roads but in the last couple of years have really enjoyed cycling along the local canals. However, it amazes me that in many fairly remote areas I come across walkers strolling along with headphones on. Despite me pinging my bell (I do have one) or even shouting they are usually oblivious. I therefore slow right down and dismount before approaching from behind and then slow walk past them with a smile and a wave.....clearly they're enjoying being there too. Rather than flying into an incandescent rage like some motorists I revel in the fact that we are both out and enjoying being where we are......life is too short for unneccessary anger.

[thenikjones]

You would think he would be a bit calmer at 69 years of age..

This line from the OP made me chuckle - based on TZ-UK membership, no, I wouldn't!


Anyone comparing horses to cycles should bear in mind the horse can cause a car a lot more damage than a bike, so it isn't only simple courtesy for a car to be a lot more respectful around them.

[pugster]

my experience with cyclists is mostly negative , riding 2-3 abreast and holding up miles of traffic , to one recently that tried to block me from moving past in a stationary traffic jam when i was on my motorbike by moving right across to the centre and putting his leg out when i tried to go past ( he could have easily got off his bike and pushed it on the pavement to get round the traffic jam on some roadworks but was quite happy to try and stop bikers going past ).
i suppose the main difference is that most bike owners are out on their jollies while most car owner are trying to get to/from work.

[adrianw]

I stand corrected then, although on the Kingston-Ham-Richmond route the roads seem pretty decent (Richmond Road route)

Something that has angered a lot of people round here, potholes are horrendous everywhere and Essex CC are not spending a penny, yet last month it was Ride London and all the roads on the route were resurfaced.

[barreti]

I enjoy running and walking on paths and tracks, so do the off- road cyclist brigade. I’ve nothing against them, but the no- bell prizewinners annoy me greatly! If they had a bell, and used it, all would be well, but too many of them don’t have one.

Ring the bloody bell and I know you’re coming up behind me so I’ll move out if your way.......what’s hard about that! They spend big money on the bikes and the lycra, why not spend a bit more and fit a bell?

From the cyclist point of view there are 2 issues with alerting pedestrians you are coming.

The first has already been mentioned - most have headphones in and can't hear you anyway.

The second is when you alert someone they don't just turn on the spot to look for you, they turn and move sideways and you can never judge which way they will move. And by the time they do finally get their heads out I could be right on top of them and it becomes dangerous. Because of this I only alert people if I really can't get past them safely. I will slow down a bit but if there is enough space for me to get past I'll just go through it.
If I am on a gravel track I not only shout but skid the back wheel. That usually grabs their attention if they don't have headphones on.

[Passenger]

I live half a mile from Hampton Court and the roads are utterly shit!

Ah, thanks, I recline corrected.

[bry nylon]

This line from the OP made me chuckle - based on TZ-UK membership, no, I wouldn't!


Anyone comparing horses to cycles should bear in mind the horse can cause a car a lot more damage than a bike, so it isn't only simple courtesy for a car to be a lot more respectful around them.

yeah you might have a point there! lot of angry old geezers arguing on the internet :-)

I have learnt (from my cycling club), to always slow right down when approaching horses and call out to them, saying hi, hello etc as it is so easy to spook them, especially if you approach them from behind, either silently or with a noisy freehub.. Must be v scary for the horse rider if they do get spooked and rear up.
The horse riders are usually v appreciative...

[mikeveal]

Trouble is that the changes in the law regarding cyclists have encouraged some to ride three abreast, or ride in such a way that they cause huge traffic jams, the law needs amending and reviewed so that poor behaviour by cyclists is punished.

There have been no recent changes to the law regarding cyclist. There is no new or amended legislation.
The highway code - which is a guide on how to interpret the legislation has been updated, but the legislation itself is unchanged.

I never use cycle lanes - around these parts (NW Leics) they're often littered with stones, bits of glass and pedestrians. The Highway Code asserts that they should be used “where they make your journey safer and easier”, but it's not compulsory to do so in any event.

Cycle lanes round here are pretty good. Where possible they have priority over side roads and aren't full of detritus. There are lanes that are shared with pedestrians and that don't have priority over side roads, but they are there for a bloody good reason, for example, here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.94...8192?entry=ttu
Firstly this is a really dangerous bit of road, with frequent accidents. I used to know a cyclist who was put in a wheel chair for life here. Secondly it's a major artery into the city and having it slow down to 15mph as everyone overtakes a cyclist causes jams. Yet you still see suicyclists refusing to use the cyclepath.

I'm fully aware that the cyclist may think it more convenient to use the road than the shared cycle path and it is indeed their right to do so. But where they're refusing to show courtesy to motorists (by using a cycle path which would only add a few seconds to their journey), it shouldn't be a surprise to them when the motorists don't show a lot of courtesy in passing. Respect is a two way street.

Yes, I cycle (I've done John O'groats to Lands End), and I will move out to become impossible to pass where an overtake would be too close for comfort. But I always move straight back in again to allow the traffic to flow, always use cycle paths and always avoid busy roads where possible (even if it makes my journey much longer).

Not antagonising the idiot aiming 2 tonnes of metal at me seems like a basic survival skill to me.

[Montello]

I'm deliberately avoiding reading this thread because I expect it'll have polarised into cyclists v cyclist haters.

Very wise, would have been easier if the OP has simply asked lover or hater?

I get sucked into these debates in the naïve hope that I could possibly turn a hater into a lover or maybe just a neutral but in all the years of trying to understand the haters and trying to propose another way of looking at things I can't recall anyone doing anything other that just digging in with their views even when challenged with obvious logic.

So many assumptions and generalisations get trotted out to justify a position and none of them really make sense.

When I drive a car every journey is delayed by traffic ... those delays are mostly caused by other cars; I may encounter some slow moving traffic on the way such as a cyclist, horse, tractor, etc ... but once passed up the road I'll always end up stuck in another row of cars.

The bottom line is there are more cars than we have the infrastructure to support so the system is overloaded and frustrating to use; and so much of that frustration gets heaped upon the cyclists.

Yes there are some inconsiderate and deliberately confrontational cyclists on the roads and those people do us a dis-service as a whole; however their actions are unlikely to result in the loss of another's life; unlike those of the angry reckless car driver.

All we need is some mutual understanding, consideration and respect.

Even if that cyclist is annoying you remember that is someone's child, parent, partner and so on ... it may even be Dave, your mate from the golf club, who has just taken up cycling ... do you really want to knock Dave off with the awful potential consequences to you and Dave's loved ones?

[murkeywaters]

All we need is some mutual understanding, consideration and respect.

Even if that cyclist is annoying you remember that is someone's child, parent, partner and so on ... it may even be Dave, your mate from the golf club, who has just taken up cycling ... do you really want to knock Dave off with the awful potential consequences to you and Dave's loved ones?

I dont think anyone reading or contributing to this thread would want to cause harm or knock someone off, in Europe drivers often pull over to let other drivers past but here slow cars mostly just keep on plodding and holding up tailbacks, same with cyclists but I guess they dont want to disrupt their Strava!

That said I think the most angst is groups of cyclists riding 2/3 abreast, that will always cause problems, personally I always give cyclists a wave when they drop back to single file as a thank you for making the effort to help me pass..

[Montello]

That said I think the most angst is groups of cyclists riding 2/3 abreast, that will always cause problems ...

I don't think I have ever seen groups riding 3 abreast, I suspect people think this is happening because they are viewing the group from behind and think that it's 3 abreast but likely its a pair and a single that is sitting behind that is perceived to be 3 abreast when it isn't ...

Sometimes it is better and makes it easier to remain 2 abreast to make the pass easier for the car as singling out creates a longer obstruction to pass ...

See ...

[bry nylon]

^^ good point

I often think that when drivers complain about 3 - 4 abreast what they are actually seeing is riders in pairs that are not exactly in line with the riders in front. Viewed from front or behind this might appear to be 3-4 abreast but is actually riders in pairs.
As you point out, riders in pairs in a group of 8-12 strong are easier to pass than the same amount singled out..

In line with my original post, up on Road CC;

https://road.cc/content/news/cyclist...em-over-301815 driver killed two cyclists and walked out of court with a suspended sentence.

This is what should we see more of, posted today and involved a 'road rage' attack at the Sun & Sands roundabout in Blackheath;

https://road.cc/content/news/driver-...-weapon-302059
Driver got 18 months, which is more like it but he should have got more and a longer ban...

One bit of good news though, regarding poor sentencing outcomes also up on Road CC today;

https://road.cc/content/news/killing...or-list-302021

"The Sentencing Council has published 12 new and revised sentencing guidelines for offenders convicted of motoring offences in England and Wales, with the victim being a vulnerable road user — such as a cyclist or pedestrian — now an 'aggravating factor' for judges to consider, increasing the severity of the offence and potentially increasing the sentence"

This will also apply to motorcyclists and horse riders;

"Alongside cyclists and pedestrians, the victim being a horse rider or motorcyclist will also qualify as an aggravating factor via the victim being a vulnerable road user, and reflects the changes to the Highway Code at the start of last year where it was outlined: "Those who can cause the greatest harm have the greatest responsibility to reduce the danger or threat they pose to others.
It will also be an aggravating factor in non-fatal cases, such as dangerous driving, causing serious injury by dangerous driving, causing serious injury by driving whilst disqualified, causing serious injury by careless driving, and causing injury by wanton or furious driving."

Under the same guidelines this will also apply if you have a cyclist killing a pedestrian;

"It is worth also mentioning that one of the aforementioned offences, 'causing injury by wanton or furious driving', also now carries the 'aggravating factor' of the victim being a vulnerable road user, such as a pedestrian.

This is the offence cyclists involved in crashes in which a pedestrian is killed or injured can face prosecution under, suggesting that in such cases the pedestrian's status as a vulnerable road user would be viewed as an aggravating factor and possibly contribute to a more severe sentence. The maximum sentence for such offences is two years imprisonment".

Long overdue imo...

[monogroover]

Just read this post on a cycling forum I frequent:

Me and the wife took the road bikes out for a 20-miler this evening. A lesson was learned.

I had an unnerving experience with a driver who obviously has a beef with cyclists. I was a couple of hundred yards in front of the missus and this car passes me and immediately slowed down and cut off the space next to the verge so that I could not pass. At first I just thought it was strange and thought he may have a mechanical issue. Whilst forcing me to ride behind at walking pace he started putting his thumb up whilst smirking in the mirror. At that point the thought crossed my mind that it might be someone who knew me, although it would be very rare behaviour. I managed to pull alongside level with his open window, "enjoying yourself?", he asked.

"Yes", I replied, "and how are you?" (at that point I was unsure whether it was someone I'd encountered at some point in the past and couldn't place).

I dropped behind as he increased speed slightly, then as I was directly behind he put his brakes on. Luckily I reacted quick enough to avoid hitting his bumper. Satisfied he'd 'toyed' with me long enough, he drove off, making some form of hand gesture out if the window (which didn't really mean much to me but seemed to imply that he'd got the better of me, somehow.