Reply With QuoteAs soon as I saw the price I stopped reading : it’s way beyond anything I would consider. I’m an Apple addict so I’m used to over paying but this is a bridge too far.
I do not underestimate Apple’s historical ability to create markets with their products. They’ve done is numerous times in the past and advanced the user experience considerably each time through clever packaging and design.
However, I’m somewhat shocked at the initial price point for their new ProVR system.
Essentially it is 3k here in the UK.
That seems well beyond what the home consumer market will stand - twice the price of a decent MacBook for example.
Apple products have always been expensive and pitched at the top end of the market, but this seems several levels above that, particularly in the current financial climate.
Thoughts?
So clever my foot fell off.
As soon as I saw the price I stopped reading : it’s way beyond anything I would consider. I’m an Apple addict so I’m used to over paying but this is a bridge too far.
I'd be interested to compare them to the Meta Quest II VR headset (not Pro) that I own. I'm not usually a gamer but a small group of work colleagues and I recently purchased them and play an occasional round of Walkabout Mini Golf. I just can't see how the price tag can be justified against the competition unless there's a step change in the graphics. I'm sure they're beautifully designed as with all Apple products but I'll wait to try them in an Apple Store and then likely reject them.
e idea.
The very high price had been well rumoured for many months beforehand so it probably came as no surprise to anyone seriously interested in purchasing the first generation version. There's also rumours that a cheaper non Pro version is in the works too. I was sceptical too but after watching the keynote yesterday I came away very impressed with it and thinking I'd rather have that than a new large screen 4K OLED TV for its entertainment purposes alone. So when the 2nd/3rd generation get to that sort of price point then I'm interested. It doesn't surprise that new technology comes with a high price and will no doubt get cheaper and also improve as it's refined.
It is augmented reality rather than virtual reality . I presume the tech isn't cheap to produce but the rrp does seem outrageous. Maybe marketed at more business use than leisure ? .
I’d be surprised if it’s 3.5k USD plus tax and 3k inc VAT here. Not how apple pricing normally works for the UK.
Looks absolutely fantastic and scary in equal measure. We really are going to be zombies and that puts me off more than the price.
Don’t see how successful it can be though when powered by Siri which is arguably the worst voice assistant.
At the part when it showed a group FaceTime call and how well you could see the other participants I notice it didn’t show how those same participants viewed you. Presumably as an emoji?
It’s always difficult to price a new product, especially when comparing it to a product in a different sector.Originally Posted by TheFlyingBanana
But if a single guy told you he’d £3k on a new ultra flat, 4k Cinema size display with a new surround sound system for his flat you’d think the price was ok. Package it up into something that you can take everywhere you go and the price becomes almost reasonable.
I won’t be buying one mind you.
No, it takes a 3d scan of you when you first put headset on, then that moves as you move, tracking your eyes (in theory). I think that part isn't the best, but it is a step up on emoji.
Overall, if they run with this tech, in 3-4 years it could be a big deal. All very weird though at first look!
I have enough trouble handling reality these days - so it’s a no from me, whatever the price.
I suggest it will be mandatory to be integrated (chipped) aka Borg style (within 20 years I estimate) so this will seem as archaic as the mobile “phone” by then.
“ Ford... you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.” HHGTTG
That’s pretty interesting. I won’t even buy an Apple Watch for fear of being sucked into another device which somehow needs upgrading every 24/36 months let alone £3.5k+ on this.
Very, very cool. But very, very scary.
AW has been brilliant in my experience, very useful - so much data and ability to not be glued to the phone if you wish. Also, integrates seamlessly as expected.
I have been holding off upgrading as it still works perfectly. Think I have the version from 2020. Will see if I can get another year or so out of it. Nearly went for the ultra, but I think too big for me.
Obvious downside - it has reduced the time a real watch is on my wrist, unless I am brave enough to double wrist.
Still riding the Garmin train there. Double wristing with the Fenix 6 for home and casual long sleeves, Vivosmart 5 when actually in public.
It only buzzes for calls and SMS so now I have vibrate on my phone vibration turned off and get less distracted as a result.
Apple would probably offer more but the battery life on Garmin is unsurpassed and gives me a bit more freedom if I ever want to go back to Android.
I'd love one but not at that price. They reason the price against the cost of a 4K OLED, surround system and computer but all in one. The fact that it is a stand alone computer is mental. Battery life is a bit shit. Will be amazing for watching movies on. I guess us plebs will be waiting for the cheaper SE version sometime down the line. They certainly seem to have created a great device that slots right in their ecosystem just maybe not for the mainstream as yet.
As I’m blind without my glasses ( long & short sighted with astigmatism) I’ll be avoiding this.
You need to have your corrective lenses put into their special adaptors , which I suspect won’t be cheap, and which I suspect may even need to be glazed by them .
And then, when the new version comes out, It will need a slightly different adaptor!
Also, where do you put your glasses when wearing this rig?
I wonder how long it’ll be before I spot a youth sporting one of these - alongside one or more of the obligatory coffee, man bun, beard and tattoos - walk smack into a lamp post?
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I guess if tech like this becomes as popular as smartphones, glasses become obsolete and our vision will be only limited to camera technology. We’ll be able to see in infrared, heat sensitive, ultra high resolution with super zoom and macro ability. All you’ll need are some contact lenses that are clear enough to focus on the screen in front of your eyes.
Release of the headset is a starting position for a new product line. New apps for innovative use cases will be developed, the technology will be enhanced, and the value proposition improved. This is no different to Apple's many previous market successes.
If it’s $3499 dollars then that’s £3499, as with all Apple products.
Clearly this is more about what ‘spatial computing’ could be in ten years, when it’s a pair of Ray-bans with all-day battery life, for the price of a phone. This is a strong version one. But like the Apple Watch, it’s not entirely clear what it’s for at the moment. It’s a truly awesome gimmick, and by a county mile both the most impressive AR and VR headset, with a ton of clever and innovative ideas. But it’s also a solution in search of a problem. It’s not obvious that spatial computing is the best way to do anything much. They’ve created a platform and hope that, like the iPhone, developers will fill the gaps, just as they did with the iPhone App Store, which succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. In this case though, it’s hard to think of use cases that will make it an everyday tool of choice, like the iPhone. It could perhaps have a future in gaming, education, watching sports, and um… cough… adult entertainment? Various other quite specialised applications no doubt. But it’s not clear that it will be more than a niche product. It’s certainly not the best way to browse web pages or even watch videos. The really interesting thing this year is AI, but Apple have built something last seen in Minority Report, or 80s cyberpunk novels, or Ready Player One. They’ve thrown a ton of money and talent at it and built something pretty amazing, but they never asked ‘Why?’. I hope it succeeds and grows into something more obviously useful, but I’m waiting for some killer apps and price cuts, we’re a long way from FOMO currently.
They built it because they can, rather than because it's of any use to anyone.
Waste of money, completely pointless, vastly overpriced when many are struggling with affording basics.
You could say the same about many of the watches owned, bought and sold on this very forum. Doesn't mean that a certain level of income bracket won't be first in the queue for this product does it. I imagine when the iPhone first came out people said why do I need anything beyond being able to call and text. Apple took a fairly geeky niche item like Palm Pilots and the early Compaq handlhelds sprinkled some Apple pixie dust on it and look where we are with phones now. So who knows where this will go with the bar they have now set. It could bomb big time or end up with us all sitting in VR space for daily life at the stretch end. I imagine somewhere in the lower to middle reach of that scale for a goodly amount of time.
This video has racked up a lot of views in the last day
It makes some good points how Apple have been working on this for a long time perfecting bits of tech that are in use in other of their devices. So I would have thought they've had plenty of time to have a light bulb moment of this is a dumb thing to do or not.
A watch always has a practical use, as does a mobile handheld computer.
Last edited by Filterlab; 6th June 2023 at 22:46.
Still a waste of money to pay thousands for one when one could be bought for tens of pounds.
Seriously cool tech. Priced for first adopters perhaps, badged as a 'pro' model so perhaps a more consumer friendly model will appears down the line.
Watched a few videos on YouTube and it does like like a really fun bit of kit. Not eager to part with £3k though, so I suspect I'm not the target! Check out MKBHD on YouTube for a good rundown.
This is very worthwhile watching
Do you really believe they invested however many tens of millions without asking why? Of course they have a vision of where this is going, even if they are not publicising it all now.
May be true, but doubt they see that there’s no use to anyone. Again, I’m pretty sure they can see a use in the future and people will catch on.
Can’t argue with the pricing being for well off, early adopters, but this really is new tech and will develop and ultimately become more affordable
Indeed, which is why I don't.
So those other ones are pointless…Indeed, which is why I don't.
If these are like an oculus quest it will be exhausting to wear it more than half an hour.
I used to love video games etc as a youth - back in the Sega mega drive days etc - but as the tech progressed I found myself getting awful motion sickness if I tried to play - or even watched someone else play - a first person shooter style game. I don’t get any form of motion sickness in real life, done lots of sailing etc, never an issue. Now I get a headache after half an hour of playing almost any game beyond the old school more basic versions. Even saw a doctor who basically said my eyes aren’t fooling my brain which isn’t a problem, it’s not that uncommon. It’s killed my interest in gaming (only played a bit because I have 2 sons and wanted to join in with them). I do wonder if I’d be affected by this sort of VR headset and as a result won’t be able to join this particular revolution. Oh well, might save me a few quid by the looks of it!
Yes, I do believe that. I’ve been working with this every now and again since the 90s, when I was involved in creating an early metaverse type project, and have since directed virtual reality. I’ve been frustrated that while VR is really good now, it remains a very niche technology due to fundamental issues like feeling sick, and not actually wanting to spend too long in there. It absolutely has its place, but it’s not the new iPhone. AR is potentially more compelling but still has practical limitations. Of course I’m well awere of the vision of where it’s going, as it’s been a sci-fi wet dream since Neuromancer came out in the 80s. It’s easy to extrapolate to lighter and more affordable glasses.
Nonetheless, I do think that Apple after Steve Jobs has shifted to making products because they can make them, and not because they have a compelling vision of what they are for. Exhibit A is the Apple Watch, a product built on a wave of hype that wearables were the next big thing. But it’s a fundamentally limited product, because a tiny screen is not a great way to do anything. It was never really clear why you needed one, and its search for a reason to exist has gradually settled on health tracking and step counting, with a side order of annoying notifications. I have to admit it’s been a very successful gimmick, but I doubt many people think, ‘I don’t have to bring my phone today because I’m wearing my Apple watch’, because the iPhone is better at almost everything.
The next exhibit is the newly released Mac Pro, which costs £4K more than the top spec Mac Studio at around £10k with decent options, for the privilege of having PCIe expansion slots. But really, what are they for? The GPUs are integrated, no one needs internal audio cards any more, the only thing you can use them for is storage. Who wants to pay £4K to have internal drives instead of external drives? And these ‘pro’ machines don’t run the NVidia cards you want for AI, or for CGI. To be fair the Studio is a sweet machine for building an edit and colour grading suite or running creative cloud, but the high end pros are pulling their hair out.
I love Apple products and am deep in their ecosystem. They make great phones, laptops, iPads, and up to a point desktops, but they’ve fallen behind on AI and pro machines under Tim Cook. They’ve transitioned to some impressive in-house chips after being held back by Intel, but it’s now a GPU world and it’s NVidia stock that has exploded this year. Does Tim Cook have a vision for what AR is for? I’m not entirely sure he does, I think they are hoping that if they build a platform, someone else will figure it out.
Last edited by Itsguy; 7th June 2023 at 08:35.
Errr, no. I was simply agreeing that it's a waste of money.
Great video - and in the second half quite a nuanced take:
https://youtu.be/4IC5cGbaCD0
To bang on about this some more (sorry!), it's not that they have a secret vision which they aren't publicising for some reason, the vision is quite clear, and has been to sci-fi nerds for some time. The idea is that the ultimate evolution of the computer and / or display is AR glasses, because then you don't need phones, laptops, TVs, projectors and so on, you just project them using the fancy glasses. And 'spatial computing' has been a sci-fi dream since the opening scene of Minority Report, though probably long before. Google Glass tried this, and failed. The reality is that it's hard to project things over the real world because the world is very bright, and how do you project an in focus image on to glasses that are 20mm away when the eyes are focused 20m away?
Apple's solution is basically really good pass-through 3D video within VR, from cameras on the front, a kind of simulated AR. They even put borderline creepy eyes on the outside so it looks like you're seeing through them - or more practically, so other people know you can see them and can interact. It's a slightly goofy solution - no one is going to be wearing these walking round in public. But it works up to a point, and should allow you to walk around your room while experiencing 3D animations, without falling over or crashing into anything. I doubt though that you'd be able to play augmented darts, or pool, or tennis, and frankly I'd be a bit worried about walking down a flight of stairs. Just how accurate is that projected simulation of your environment in critical situations?
It's obviously not the best way to surf the web or watch TV, simply because you have to wear heavy googles. Some kind of wrist band is a more likely phone replacement. I'd be curious to know if Avatar in 3D is compelling enough on them to want to wear a heavy headset for 3 hours. It will no doubt create some fun new experiences, but I don't see this simulated AR becoming the ultimate computer and phone replacement for most tasks. It's fundamentally different to the original dream of AR glasses that inspired it, even when it's evolved a few generations. However it is a valid evolution of VR, and it will be compelling for things that are good in interactive 3D. If the price gets under a grand and it's lighter, then FOMO should take over and give it place in the market. Ultimately though, AR is not the best way to do anything except AR itself.
To continue this conversation with myself, I’m coming round to these. But not because they’re the future of computing, or a replacement for the iPhone, or the best way to communicate, write emails, surf the web, or watch movies, because they aren’t any of those things. Those things were designed for other devices and are best on those devices. It will be good at completely different things. The USP of mixed reality is that it’s FUN, and you can walk around your room without falling over, hitting your head, or throwing up. It’s very good at that, and doesn’t need lots of external cameras or controllers. Once you let go of the ‘future of computing’ hype and admit it’s just a really nice toy, then it’s just an issue of price. But the clue is in the name - why call something ‘Pro’ if the less expensive, less pro version isn’t round the corner. If it was under £1k then it would fly off the shelves, mainly because dinosaurs come out of the wall, and butterflies land on your hand.
I would also assume that an iPhone will soon arrive with two cameras, one in the corner on each end, so it can take 3D photos and movies, which you can watch back on the headset. Taking them using the headset itself isn’t appealing in most situations. You’d also be able to use them as normal 2D movies on the phone, they’d just have another 3D channel for later. The iPhone is already exactly the right size for this, just hold it in front of your eyes, the length is about right. So once again, the main barrier is price, but this is, after all, a watch forum where people spend thousands just to look at something pretty that tells the time badly. It isn’t about to replace the iPhone or computer, but it will earn a place in a drawer somewhere.
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