Hi All,
Just after a bit of advice and expert guidance from people who are more informed than me when it comes to power reserves...
I have a Bremont S300 that's a few months old. According to the Bremont website, it has a BE-92AE automatic chronometer with a quoted 38-hour power reserve, is COSC Certified, etc.
A few months after purchase, I noticed the watch had suddenly stopped working whilst I was wearing it. There was no coaxing it back to life and winding it elicited a bit of a grinding sensation. It went to the boutique in Melbourne who also tried to troubleshoot it, and returned it to the UK for a warranty repair. Up to this point, I hadn't paid much attention to the power reserve but noticed no issues in terms of timekeeping. The watch was returned a month or two later and whilst it kept good time, to me at least, I noticed the power reserve was erratic and not able to achieve the quoted 38 hours. I was getting between 12 and 24 hours (no more) with regular use. I phoned the boutique and shipped it off to them to look at. They checked for magnetism and kept an eye on it for a few days. According to them the watch was operating fine and meeting the power reserve. They suggested I hadn't wound it sufficiently. To this point, I had only been winding it about 30-40 turns of the crown and they suggested I could wind it for longer as this movement cannot be overwound. Still, I find it odd that a watch that is worn regularly after winding (as in a few days at a time) would not retain power.
They did, however, note that the watch was not keeping time and was losing circa 20 seconds a day. They were not able to regulate it so it was back to the UK for a few more months. It arrived back this week (with a complementary strap to make up for the inconvenience of being returned twice under warranty and after just a few short months since purchase) and it was promptly wound on Monday - I'd say probably 50 or so full turns of the crown. Apart from taking it off to shower, I've worn it continuously since it's return. Last night I took it off for the first time at around 8pm and this morning noticed it had stopped at just after 1am - so 5 or so hours later.
To me, that is obviously way off the 38-hours and I'm once again concerned that the movement is a lemon. Before I go back to Bremont, I just wanted to make sure I'm not overlooking anything obvious regarding this movement, and to see if I'm making an issue out of something i shouldn't. Do these movements take some time to bed in, i.e. do they need to be worn but wound on a more frequent basis until the movement is operating to its full extent? I'm really not sure as this is the first watch in my experience across many brands and movements that seems to require special treatment.
I'd be grateful for any guidance or insight to see if I'm not way off base before going back to Bremont.
Cheers,
Rob
It definitely needs attention; it's not a question of "bedding in" a new movement or anything like that. I'm no watchmaker but I've never owned an automatic watch that didn't basically work properly out of the box, whether a Rolex, a Seiko 5 or anything else.
Rob, sorry to hear of the issues you've had with your new Bremont, and the fact you haven't seen it much since purchase!Originally Posted by Rob777
On your most recent power reserve observation, based on your description quoted above, I wouldn't be immediately concerned at your watch stopping after 5 hours, given it had been 5 days since it was last fully wound (how much it was then wound in-between times will obviously depend on how active you are). I don't personally rely on wrist winding alone for my own watches when continually worn, I'll wind them manually every 3 days or so (however, my job is PC based, so quite sedentary).
Greater knowledge will be along shortly I'm sure.
Enjoy your watch, now you have it back.
P.S. As a test, give your watch a full manual wind (e.g. 50 turns) from a stopped position, and leave it resting (don't wear it), timing how long until it stops. If near the 38hr mark, then I think you can assume it's working as expected. If significantly less, then it will need attention. That's what I'd do anyway. Good luck.
Last edited by jukeboxs; 4th June 2023 at 02:09. Reason: P.S. added
Thanks for the reply. That was my concern too. I'm also no watchmaker but I understand that new watches can take a while for their timekeeping to settle and was wondering if there was a similar thinking around the power reserve.
Thank you and that's a fair point. My work week has been a bit more static than usual. I've followed your suggestion and just given it another full wind after starting it up again this morning. It's sitting on the bedside drawer and will check up on it and report back.
Last edited by Rob777; 4th June 2023 at 04:33.
Thanks Rob, I look forward to hearing your findings.
I should have clarified that I do always fully wind my stopped watch before any wearing stint, so I'll give it a full initial wind (from rest) and then every c3 days during continual wear. I have 10+ watches and tend to wear them in rotation for around 5 days at a time. One doesn't always last 3 days, so that gets topped up every 2 days (it's out of warranty, and I'm not rushing it for a service as timekeeping is fine, and Patek isn't cheap!).
Last edited by jukeboxs; 4th June 2023 at 10:16.
It seems a reasonable hypothesis to a point, but from your first post I understood that you'd worn it all day, taken it off at 8pm and then it had stopped five hours later - that can't be normal and it's behaviour I've never seen in an automatic watch (I must have owned at least 15 from new). Hope you can get it sorted soon anyway.
this reminds me of something I've seen before, a jamming rotor. Unfortunately as your watch is a closed caseback you won't be able to tell but with an exhibition case you can see if the rotor is spinning freely and if it's not, it won't be 'charging' the watch correctly. With most of the automatic watches I've seen, if you put the watch next to your ear in a quiet environment and move it around a bit you can hear the rotor spinning. If you can't hear it that might be a 'tell' but what I'd be tempted to do is contact Bremont customer services, mention the problem and say that you've been told it could be the rotor and see what they say. Then of course take it back to the dealer. Regardless, it does seem like a warranty problem to me.
one more thought, why not go for a hour long strenuous walk with it each day for a week without winding and see what happens after each walk. That should give you a good benchmark.
On one of the points above - in 35 years of wearing automatic watches, I’ve never once hand-wound a ‘daily wearer’ to keep the power reserve topped up. I also do a desk job but in my experience just average daily activity is more than enough to keep an automatic going, if I wear something else for a day I never hand wind it either and I get excellent timekeeping. If a daily worn watch stops on me, unless I’ve not touched it for 48 hours there must be a problem!
Apologies for the delayed reply all - I'm on the other side of the world!
But thank you for the advice, suggestions and comments from your own experience.
Having given it a good wind, it's still going this morning after almost 24 hours which at least is promising. I'd read something last week (I can't remember if it was on here or somewhere else) that most watch movements need around 650 rotor turns to stay 'powered up'. I can only imagine then that I'm not moving the rotor sufficiently on a given day (which would be odd as my job is fairly active) or something is possibly impeding the rotor in line with what theancientmariner suggested.
My concern is that, compared to all the other watches with their various movements I've owned over the years, this would be the first where it stops so soon after being off the wrist. I'll carry on monitoring it until it goes dead, make a note of the duration, and wear it extensively again for a few more days and make an effort to keep it ticking (the dogs will enjoy the extra walkies), then get in touch with Bremont and see what their thoughts are if it's still not getting close to what it should be.
Rob (OP), any update on performance and any feedback from Bremont (if you contacted them)?
It’s been a bit hit and miss to be honest. More misses than hits.
I’ve gave it a good wind as suggested, left it on my bedside table and, surprisingly, the power reserve went well over 48 hours. I suspect this is what Bremont did as part of their QC process which explains the clean bill of health after both returns from the service centre.
On the wrist is a different story altogether. I can still wear it solidly for days at a time, rotate it out and, a few hours to a day or so later, it stops.
I haven’t been able to be as active as I’d like the past few weeks though on account of some surgery but I’ll check it again after I’m completely up and about and send it back yet again if there’s no consistency.
The fact that the watch can be hand-wound and gives the correct power reserve rules out a number of faults, there's clearly nothing wrong with the mainspring. Full wind takes approx. 35 twists of the crown on an ETA 2836 (which this is based on) and I doubt whether there have been any modifications to the winding parts to alter this. One fault that afflicts these movements is sticking reversers, that causes a stiff and uneven action when hand-winding but provided this is winding smoothly that can be eliminated. However, if the reversers are sticking that will affect the automatic winding which will become inefficient or cease to function. If the watch has been returned to Bremont I would expect all to be well, these problems are well-known and are the first thing to check on a movement of this type.
If the watch is fully hand-wound and the owner is reasonably active it should continue to run without further hand-winding, but clearly that isn`t happening. There is either a fault with the automatic winding (which I think is unlikely) or the owner is simply not moving sufficiently to keep it wound. If its running in a low state of wind the timekeeping will also be way off.
Any half-decent repairer can check the functioning of the auto-winding very easily with the caseback removed, simply move the rotor back and forth and check that motion is being transferred to the ratchet wheel in when the rotor is moved in both directions, provided the rotor is moving freely and the problems with the reversers isn`t present (easy to check) all will be well.
Strongly suspect the simple answer is the correct one in this case, owner's not moving sufficiently to keep the watch wound.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for your considered input and I have a lot of respect for your expertise in this area.
It did concern me that perhaps I simply wasn't "moving" enough to keep it running. I don't lead a particularly sedentary lifestyle though and, whilst I haven't been able to run of late, I did make a point of wearing the watch whilst out for brisk walks, etc., and I still wasn't able to get the full power reserve. I've owned dozens of watches and this is my first experience of such a temperamental movement but it may be that it's just not as forgiving as the likes of others.
When I'm fighting fit again in a few weeks, I'll be better able to say with more certainty whether the issue lies with the movent or my lazy arse!
It sounds like you have a case to request your money back or exchange under your consumer rights. But I must admit I don’t know your rights in Australia? I would check for advice and some standard procedures for this. If you bought in the UK you would have statutory consumer rights to this effect.
“ Ford... you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.” HHGTTG
Do you have a mate that you could trust trying it? If it's faulty when you wear it then surely the fault will occur when worn by someone else?
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
I did think of that but I’m not sure I’ll hold my breath. I don’t know what the implications would be where the manufacturer states the watch is sound and passing all of their QC testing unless I can get a third party to provide some independent verification. I’ll definitely cross that bridge and explore those options if I need to though. I believe under Australian Consumer Law I have a year from the purchase date to raise a dispute.
If there is a problem and it does go back to Bremont, at the very least I’d expect a new movement.
Not something I’d considered but I think it’s probably best I do the troubleshooting so I can speak to Bremont from experience.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Don’t suppose you have a watch winder? Then you could measure how much winding it does. Bremont would have such facilities to test the automatic winding mechanism. As others have said there it seems either the automatic winding is faulty or else physical movement is not enough to wind the mechanism.
Maybe the AD can put it on a winder and test it for you. I think be careful of anyone else opening the case may void the manufacturers warranty.
Do you have any step counter devise you can wear - Fitbit / Garmin or most mobile phones have it built in - to check how many steps you are taking each day? If it’s less 5,000-10,000 maybe it’s not enough to keep the watch wound?
Last edited by MartynJC (UK); 4th July 2023 at 10:48.
“ Ford... you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.” HHGTTG
I find it v. surprising that the watch has been back to Bremont in the UK twice and still has a fault, especially when the problem being reported is so easy to check and rectify! This should take a half-decent repairer approx. 15 minutes to check, as stated earlier the action of the rotor has to be checked and the correct functioning of the reversers. The auto-winding bridge can be easily removed in a couple of minutes, it can be stripped down in literally another 60 seconds, all parts can be inspected, the reversers can be cleaned and re-lubricated in approx. 10 minutes and the thing built back up in a further 5-10 minutes, it really is a very simple task. Once the auto-winding has been given a clean bill of health and it has been shown that the rotor is moving correctly with the caseback re-attached, it can be concluded that the watch has no faults.
Sorry but I disagree totally with the concept of a 'lemon', a movement may have a fault and that fault can be traced and rectified, but there is no sound basis to condemn a movement and insist on a replacement.
If the watch still has a fault with the auto-winding this reflects very badly on Bremont and their ability to deal with warranty returns. My gut feeling is still to suspect the owner of not moving sufficiently but that is based 100% on trusting Bremont to have assessed the watch thoroughly.
Access to a timegrapher would help the owner assess the watch. Allow it to run down, rock it back and forth for 5 minutes to get it running in a low state of wind, put it on the timegrapher and observe the amplitude (which will be below 200°) Continue to rock the watch back and forth by hand for a further 10 minutes and re-check the amplitude, if it hasn`t increased the watch isn`t self-winding. The amplitude can be checked after a few hours of reasonably active wear, if it is going down there's a problem.
Thanks Martyn. I've now organised a watch winder for that very reason, having never really seen the need for one before. I've worn the watch constantly the past few days and this morning put it onto the winder. I'll pull it off in 5 or so days and let it run down and see where it comes out. If the power reserve isn't achieved due to lack of movement (which I don't belive to be the case) on my part, it will at least come in handy!
Sorry Paul... without wanting to sound too critical of Bremont, I simply don't share your faith in their abilities after a number of letdowns as far as this specific watch goes.
It was disappointing that a brand-new watch had the movement stop just a few short weeks after purchase. Not a great ad for a brand who's tag line is "tested beyond endurance". Only then to receive it back from Bremont and a week or so later have to send it back because it was losing 20 secs a day. And this was after it passed their QC processes. Naturally, after two issues off the trot, I'm inclined to be a little sceptical of the watch's movement.
I do take heed of your comments and the expertise you have that they are borne from and I do hope it is as you say. I'll try letting it run on a winder for a few days, take it off and let it run down and see what figure I get. If I can get my hands on a timegrapher, I'll do that as well. If the power reserve issues are in any way related to my lack of movement (doubtful as my day job keeps me active and I have two dogs that guilt me into frequent walks) then I'll unreservedly apologise but, as I stated earlier, this will be the first watch I've owned where this has been an issue.
Definitely sounds like Bremont haven`t covered themselves in glory, also sounds like the level of user activity should be sufficient to keep the watch powered up.
Bremont were recently advertising for watchmakers, perhaps they're short of skilled folks who can sort issues like this out? Their geographical location doesn`t help, it's an expensive area to re-locate to.
A power reserve issue should be straightforward to sort out, but by coincidence the micro-brand I help out with has had a problem with a Sellita 200.1 due to sticking reversers, it's been back to me once but the problem has returned. Standard procedure is to ultrasonically clean the reversers then immerse them in a special lubricant solution (Lubeta 105) which after evaporation leaves a thin film of lubricant. Works every time, they should be fine for years, but the one I`ve dealt with has proved to the the exception, in a case like that the repairer has to keep an open mind and inspect everything in great detail. Same applies to this Bremont, if user activity isn`t an issue there's something not right with the watch. I was taught to look in great detail when a watch has a fault, if you can`t see the problem keep looking harder. I`ve been known to get the microscope out to inspect parts!
Best advice on the Bremont is to get a local watchmaker to have a look.....if you can find one.
I do think they may have a shortage of specialized staff. The last return of this watch was delayed due to Bremont releasing the Viper and the Vulcan in quick succession so I’d guess they had to divert their technicians to the new releases. It looks like they’re servicing times have blown out in recent weeks as well.
I do have a fairly local watchmaker that I can send it to if needs be. I may actually ask him to run it over the timegrapher as you suggested if the watch winder experiment suggests there is a possible underlying issue.
Suggest you get the watch to the local guy, give him the full story and let him assess the watch.
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Suggest you get the watch to the local guy, give him the full story and let him assess the watch.
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