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Thread: No more "Extracts From The Archives" by Omega :-(

  1. #1

    No more "Extracts From The Archives" by Omega :-(

    Looks like their EoA service has come to an end.

    Sad if true.

    Details on OF

    https://omegaforums.net/threads/omeg...ervice.159969/

  2. #2
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Iím sorry to hear that. I have bought a few over the years. Not necessary for all watches, but certainly valuable if someone had a rare Speedmaster or Seamaster and wanted some additional provenance or confirmation of how, where and when their watch started itís life.

  3. #3
    Grand Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Noooo I was about to request one for my Seamaster. Damn

  4. #4
    That's a real shame. The sort of thing that marks luxury watch brands as historical entities who curated the past and not just profit making businesses.

    2023 - you can't get an extract from the archives for a vintage watch but you can buy a plastic speedmaster.

  5. #5
    Master jukeboxs's Avatar
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    How much did they charge, out of interest? I note that Patek still offer the service, albeit at CHF500.

  6. #6
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    About £140.00

  7. #7
    Master jukeboxs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    About £140.00
    [A relative bargain.]

  8. #8
    Grand Master Carlton-Browne's Avatar
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    That's really rather annoying. I was waiting for Hurley from MWR to get his extract back for his Afghan-issue watch and then, depending on what it said, do the same for mine.
    In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.

  9. #9
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jukeboxs View Post
    [A relative bargain.]
    Agreed, it certainly is if you have a military issue Seamaster and you want absolute confirmation that the watch was delivered to the UK MoD, adds a lot more than £140.00 to the value of the watch.

    Equally good if a seller already has an extract, helps prove that they are not selling a Frankenstein watch.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Agreed, it certainly is if you have a military issue Seamaster and you want absolute confirmation that the watch was delivered to the UK MoD, adds a lot more than £140.00 to the value of the watch.

    Equally good if a seller already has an extract, helps prove that they are not selling a Frankenstein watch.
    It's going to help sellers of dodgy -- I mean "All original, untouched" -- watches, that's for sure.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jukeboxs View Post
    How much did they charge, out of interest? I note that Patek still offer the service, albeit at CHF500.
    Iíve had a couple from Longines for £0

  12. #12
    Master paneristi372's Avatar
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    I got 2 in the past. Both came back in PDF format but were wrong dates as the watches in question were specific special editions. I raised the concern with them and they refunded me the fees and I never got anything else back. Not sure how accurate these would be for vintage pieces if they canít even get late 90ís and early 2000ís ones correct.

  13. #13
    A bit sad. I have a couple of watches that came with it though I never ordered one for myself.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Agreed, it certainly is if you have a military issue Seamaster and you want absolute confirmation that the watch was delivered to the UK MoD, adds a lot more than £140.00 to the value of the watch.

    Equally good if a seller already has an extract, helps prove that they are not selling a Frankenstein watch.
    I was under the impression they were issuing those based on pictures only, and as a result, was not really usable as a form of authenticity guarantee, only a confirmation of origin based on the serial number and pictures?

  15. #15
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandril View Post
    I was under the impression they were issuing those based on pictures only, and as a result, was not really usable as a form of authenticity guarantee, only a confirmation of origin based on the serial number and pictures?
    The first one I bought was paper only, the second was both an electronic image and a smaller extract arrived later. I think I did a thread on this a few years back.

    The extract carries no authority and is no guarantee. Any buyer still has to do their due diligence and make their own mind up, but the info on the extract can help in that respect.

  16. #16
    Craftsman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Agreed, it certainly is if you have a military issue Seamaster and you want absolute confirmation that the watch was delivered to the UK MoD, adds a lot more than £140.00 to the value of the watch.

    Equally good if a seller already has an extract, helps prove that they are not selling a Frankenstein watch.
    The Extract never proved anything.

    It was all window dressing and it's been highlighted that watches on sale with extracts are not legit.


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  17. #17
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optix View Post
    The Extract never proved anything.

    It was all window dressing and it's been highlighted that watches on sale with extracts are not legit.


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    See post #15

  18. #18
    Iíve had quite a few extracts in the past, its a nice element to include with a watch.. shame its gone but it was being abused..

    Worth reading this article if youíve not seen it.. its probably a contributing factor

    https://perezcope.com/2023/04/09/tro...a-at-phillips/

  19. #19
    Recent press in Switzerland and the US has also provided more info on why they'd feel the need to cease this service...

  20. #20
    Master
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    There have been many abuses of this system over the years but overall it has been a useful service for verifying older and higher value Omegas. The problem is that there are holes in Omega's records, particularly on the early Speedmasters (which were assembled by a third party, Orient, it seems) meaning that they can't help with some of the most valuable watches under the Omega umbrella. Also there have been suspicions, backed up by evidence that at certain times influence has been brought to bear to issue less than accurate output. At one point the all important comments section could be influenced by the sender. More recently it seemed Auction houses with a direct line could get extracts where others could not. Then you have things like the Ultraman Speedmaster, it is suspected that the Vintage team in fact have no records of these at all but will issue an extract if a given watch has an orange hand and the serial is within a year or so of 1967. In short it is dodgy as hell. I wonder if they will shake it up and start again since they clearly do have good if patchy records which could be monetised both as a cash cow but also service to the collector community.

    If they stuck to providing the info they have based purely on a serial number and nothing else then I can see how it could work and be relied on. Where it has gone wrong is when they have allowed themselves to be influenced by outside factors like photographs and powerful clients with agendas.

  21. #21
    Master
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    Anecdotally Iíd heard about this a couple of weeks ago.

    Seems this confirms it https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ev...in-controversy


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  22. #22
    Grand Master Carlton-Browne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gomers View Post
    Anecdotally Iíd heard about this a couple of weeks ago.

    Seems this confirms it https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ev...in-controversy
    I see Hodinkee's editorial standards continue to soar. Who's Frankstein?
    In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.

  23. #23
    Master earlofsodbury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gomers View Post
    Anecdotally Iíd heard about this a couple of weeks ago.

    Seems this confirms it https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ev...in-controversy

    At least it seems the cessation of certs and extracts is temporary - presumably to give Omega time to wipe all the egg off its face...

  24. #24
    Master
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    Interesting read.
    Itís basically selling a dream.
    Who can honestly expect to buy a 50 year old mechanical object untouched and original ?
    You find me a 1973 Porsche 911 that has never seen a paint-gun or had a part replaced.
    Too many folk selling unicorns.


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  25. #25
    Basically they match model to movement, I have an old Seamaster 300 which at some point must have had the movement changed for whatever reason, I did the extract search paid my money and because of the difference in serial number to model I received nothing but omega kept the money as they still had to search,
    Not the outcome I was expecting but hay ho , one thing though itís a genuine omega but because the serial number doesnít match what does this make it in the eyes of omega and collectors not that Iím intending on selling

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance wheel View Post
    Basically they match model to movement, I have an old Seamaster 300 which at some point must have had the movement changed for whatever reason, I did the extract search paid my money and because of the difference in serial number to model I received nothing but omega kept the money as they still had to search,
    Not the outcome I was expecting but hay ho , one thing though itís a genuine omega but because the serial number doesnít match what does this make it in the eyes of omega and collectors not that Iím intending on selling
    Exactly same thing here. Seamaster 300 with ballpark period-correct movement no. Only thing received was the cursory email advising watch didnít meet the criteria, no extract forthcoming.

    I did enquire as to the findings but got nowhere. Watch has since been to Sean Yates for service and the calibre 552 now runs +2spd.


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  27. #27
    Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by OHG1X View Post
    Interesting read.
    It’s basically selling a dream.
    Who can honestly expect to buy a 50 year old mechanical object untouched and original ?
    You find me a 1973 Porsche 911 that has never seen a paint-gun or had a part replaced.
    Too many folk selling unicorns.


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
    The public gets what the public wants! People are so eager to believe that everything's original, logic dictates otherwise but their desire to believe the item's a unicorn over-rides common sense.

    Parts do get swapped over the years and its usually for legitimate reasons, these watches are 50+ years old and its only in the last 15-20 years that originality has become such a hallowed concept. An Omega 550/560 has the serial number stamped on the train wheel bridge which is easy to swap, that's what makes the birth-year thing such a joke.

    I`ve owned many vintage Omegas and I`ve never had the remotest urge to get extracts from archives, for me it adds nothing to the pleasure of ownership, I judge a watch by its condition and I`d rather see a nice example that has probably had parts replaced than a battered original that hasn`t.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Gomers View Post
    Exactly same thing here. Seamaster 300 with ballpark period-correct movement no. Only thing received was the cursory email advising watch didn’t meet the criteria, no extract forthcoming.

    I did enquire as to the findings but got nowhere. Watch has since been to Sean Yates for service and the calibre 552 now runs +2spd.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My guess is if the movement was swapped with a movement serial number from the same model we both would have got a certificate of authenticity even though it would not be correct
    Last edited by Balance wheel; 11th June 2023 at 20:51.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Balance wheel View Post
    Basically they match model to movement, I have an old Seamaster 300 which at some point must have had the movement changed for whatever reason, I did the extract search paid my money and because of the difference in serial number to model I received nothing but omega kept the money as they still had to search,
    Not the outcome I was expecting but hay ho , one thing though itís a genuine omega but because the serial number doesnít match what does this make it in the eyes of omega and collectors not that Iím intending on selling
    Quote Originally Posted by Gomers View Post
    Exactly same thing here. Seamaster 300 with ballpark period-correct movement no. Only thing received was the cursory email advising watch didnít meet the criteria, no extract forthcoming.

    I did enquire as to the findings but got nowhere. Watch has since been to Sean Yates for service and the calibre 552 now runs +2spd.
    My guess is that Bienne is super-cagey on the SM300 because although the Watchco ones used all-original Omega parts people might sell them as "genuine" with service case, hands and dial. But then there's also the profusion of Chinese kits on etsy: get your cal. 552 and for not a lot of money you can buy fake dial, hands, case and crown. All branded and marked and therefore intended to deceive. An EoA would authenticate the watch and add significantly to its value. I don't think other models have this problem, which is exactly why Omega should re-make the SM300 to original specifications -- or Eddie should at least reissue the PRS-14!

  30. #30
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    My guess is that Bienne is super-cagey on the SM300 because although the Watchco ones used all-original Omega parts people might sell them as "genuine" with service case, hands and dial. But then there's also the profusion of Chinese kits on etsy: get your cal. 552 and for not a lot of money you can buy fake dial, hands, case and crown. All branded and marked and therefore intended to deceive. An EoA would authenticate the watch and add significantly to its value. I don't think other models have this problem, which is exactly why Omega should re-make the SM300 to original specifications -- or Eddie should at least reissue the PRS-14!
    The price difference unfortunately makes this a no brainer for the forgers. Watchco or refurbished SM300s were always around the £2k to £2.5k mark and original watches easily 4 times that for a nice one. It would be nice if Omega put together a reissue, something of the quality of the Speedmaster 321 reissue would be nice, but canít help thinking that the list price would be more than an original one costs, so it is sort of a shot in the foot if they do it.

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    The price difference unfortunately makes this a no brainer for the forgers. Watchco or refurbished SM300s were always around the £2k to £2.5k mark and original watches easily 4 times that for a nice one. It would be nice if Omega put together a reissue, something of the quality of the Speedmaster 321 reissue would be nice, but canít help thinking that the list price would be more than an original one costs, so it is sort of a shot in the foot if they do it.
    I don't think they could do it even if they wanted to as all their modern movements must surely be larger than the cal 552?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    I don't think they could do it even if they wanted to as all their modern movements must surely be larger than the cal 552?
    The 8800 as used in the current SM 300m etc is actually smaller than the 28mm 552 at only 26mm wide. The newer movement is a little thicker though at 4.6mm vs the 4.5mm of the 552. Hardly a deal breaker of a difference I am sure you will agree. Despite the similarity in numbers, the 8800 is not closely related to the twin barrels 8500/8900 movements they use in many things. Those are fatties. The 8800 was I would image developed from the ETA 2892 and is more in keeping with that size wise.

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Padders View Post
    The 8800 as used in the current SM 300m etc is actually smaller than the 28mm 552 at only 26mm wide. The newer movement is a little thicker though at 4.6mm vs the 4.5mm of the 552. Hardly a deal breaker of a difference I am sure you will agree. Despite the similarity in numbers, the 8800 is not closely related to the twin barrels 8500/8900 movements they use in many things. Those are fatties. The 8800 was I would image developed from the ETA 2892 and is more in keeping with that size wise.
    Padders Knows Omega! (That's his slogan.)

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