Reply With QuoteWell intended, but Chrono24 do not care and are clearly not interested. This is probably not the first instance, nor will it be the last.Originally Posted by micmic
Not that sure the credit card company would appreciate the hassle and work related to this, but then not sure I would care much about their appreciation.
Like this thread?
Insurance didn't pay.
Yep.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Well intended, but Chrono24 do not care and are clearly not interested. This is probably not the first instance, nor will it be the last.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Yes it is reported with Rolex thanks for Haywood, as far as I am aware if the watch goes back they will make contact with me and if still reported stolen they will then keep hold of it until an investigation is carried out, then returned to me?
When I was buying my 126621 Rolex last year I was having a chat with the saleswoman in the AD and we were chatting about this and she was happy to add it to the register but she informed me that the register is not an international database. My watch is reported stolen with Rolex UK but if the watch went to Rolex Holland for work (for example) the serial number would show as clean, i dont know how correct that is but chances of my watch going back to Rolex for work, in the UK, is extremely slim. It will probably bounce around the EU for years to come as it has for 3 years.
To be honest I should have done this, I can prove the watch is mine and have plenty of evidence it was stolen from me. £15k is a tiny amount to CC companies, I am sure if I raised a dispute and then confirmed it with police reports I would be in the clear. Or used the Chrono24 escrow service, purchased it and then claimed it was stolen with my bank and C24 so the payment was locked.
Even if I had to fight to keep it as least then it would be in my possession and back in Spain with me. In that case the police would 1000% side with me as they done the reports.
Long story short, dont be the good guy and follow the 'rules' and its failed me twice now..
Why though? The speed of response from them was poor, but Chrono24 has removed the listing and passed the relevant details to the police. The watch is neither for sale on Chrono24, nor was it sold on Chrono24. The delay in them dealing with the case has had no actual impact on the subsequent outcome. Not quite sure what kicking off at Chrono24 is going to achieve. It's the police that have ultimately let the OP down here, although whether their decision was correct or not from a legal standpoint I don't think we can say.
Seems like a simple thing to do if the OP wants this thread seen. Plus worth adding the serial number to the original post.
I'm not sure what view a credit card company would take on you knowingly buying stolen goods. Surely violating Ts&Cs and even if they back you that doesn't mean you just get to keep the watch and the money. Personally I'd be amazed if that approach would have worked out in your favour. Which is a good thing I guess, as you didn't take that approach.
So, in hindsight what was the best course of action?
He could have bought it in good faith and then discovered in a twist of fate it was his watch previously stolen.
Last edited by Montello; 3rd June 2023 at 08:34.
His best move (and lets face it, he's picking from a bag of spanners, but such is life) was the one he followed, with the police officer who I believe was praised earlier in this thread. For reasons we really aren't privy too (right or wrong), the police have said they can't interfere further in what is considered a civil matter, so now the best option is to engage a lawyer as advised and get a hopefully realistic perspective from a professional on the chances of a successful outcome.
I definitely empathise with the OP on a frustrating situation, and likewise it seems probable the current owner of the watch is a victim in this ordeal too.
A completely naive comment, but how do the Police establish whether theft needs to be dealt in civil courts or criminal courts. I think 99.99% of the population would agree that this case is potentially criminal and needs to be investigated as such.
The police thought this was a criminal matter but when they presented the case to a prosecutor he knocked it back and that basically closed the case and now puts it in the hands of a lawyer.
The prosecutor is probably protecting the guy from his own country who is apparently unknowing and he wont give a sh*t about the guy in Spain who's had it stolen from him.
I had a brief chat with a criminal lawyer (he cant help as its not his expertise), he seems to think there could be a case as his argument is that this watch is all over the internet, reported stolen with various companies (watch register etc), police etc, so how did it pass hands and not once be picked up on or checked. He thinks chances are people have known but just continued to sell it on.
He recommended finding a lawyer who will contact this guy and bring up the legal 'charges' and see how he reacts, this will give us a judge of his character and to see if he even bothers to reply/provide info.
The risk is that if the judge rules in the new 'owners' favour I am liable for all costs.
If I was in his predicament, I would be willing to help 100%. My first step would be finding if I can get my cash back from the trader, if so I would simply hand the watch over and walk away knowing its the right thing to do but clearly this guy has other thoughts.
It's just a shitty situation all around, you know where the watch is and that its likely going to be sold again any day and all I can do is sit back and watch.
The police have investigated. The police then put the case to the prosecutor. On assumption it works similar to the UK system, the prosecutor has to decide if there's a realistic prospect of success and if it's in the public interest to proceed.
Pure speculation here, but I suspect in this case there wasn't a realistic prospect of prosecuting the current holder of the watch due to there likely being insufficient evidence that individual had committed a crime.
In the absence of sufficient evidence of a crime against the individual in question, it becomes a civil law matter around ownership of the watch, damages etc.
I know it's a crap situation, but try to stay objective. You need advice from a lawyer familiar with the law in that country.
Bear in mind that the person on the other end may genuinely be innocent here and a victim just like you. In that scenario, I think they'd be trying to return the watch to wherever they got it for a refund, at which point it would be down to the 'trader' to do the right thing. The current holder is very unlikely to get their money back if they just hand the watch over to some bloke in the UK. But of course with Instagram traders etc, who knows whether the 'trader' will still exist.
Of course the current holder may be rotten and well aware of the history around this watch, but the sale on C24 would seem very risky in that case.
Last edited by M1011; 4th June 2023 at 01:25.
Yes, what is the offence here the police should be investigating? They will likely be no nearer the criminal involved in originally ‘stealing’ the watch. Without this can see their POV.
I guess once the police establish the person in current possession of the watch is not the person who stole it and nor did he buy it off the person who stole it then the chances of a criminal prosecution are remote and so it becomes a civil matter of disputed ownership not a criminal offence of theft.
I can see how the current owner might be reluctant to hand it over and lose all his money but I cannot for the life of me see why he would not at least contact the shop he bought it from to seek a refund - they presumably could claim the cost off their insurance.
Is it the case that if this watch were ever returned to Rolex for service then there would be a chance, depending on which database the service centre could access, that they might retain it as stolen?
If so, then the current 'owner' might have bought the watch in good faith but he certainly would not be selling it as such.
It's a messy situation and no mistake. If i read you correctly, your watch was not covered by insurance. Is there a compromise here where you pay him half the value of the watch to return it? There's no justice in that and both of you lose out to some extent but not as much you currently are down. Sometimes, compromises are ugly but better than nothing.
Legal action, beyond the threatening letter stage, can become very expensive in a very short space of time.
Last edited by IanK; 4th June 2023 at 21:40.
It’s such a bad situation to be in. I can’t help but feel the OP is in a worse position now then they were BEFORE Chrono24 took the watch off their platform, and the current owner now knows he in possession of a stolen watch. If they are unwilling to help, your chances of getting it back are even slimmer. My advice to you would be to give up at this point and move on, as difficult as that may sound. The time, energy and stress could be spent elsewhere in life!
Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
Possibly, it is reported stolen with Rolex and if the watch does go back then I might get lucky in the future but the watch was about 3 weeks old when stolen so its now 3 years old, unless there is some kind of damage its probably not going to go back to Rolex for a service for a long time (and thats if it goes to Rolex).
Unfortunately I cant get in touch with the seller due to data protection, C24 wont give me anything about him at all and neither will the police.
The only way this info would be released would be via a lawyer I believe.
Anyone who has done business with Chrono24 can leave a review on Trustpilot.
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/chrono24.co.uk?stars=1
1-star reviews mentioning how they have failed to resolve a situation with a watch identified as stolen might be painful.
I disagree with those who say to give up.
After many years actively involving myself in addressing high value watch crime, it is my repeated experience that it is the squeaky wheel which gets the oil. The victim who persists on all fronts, circulates the case number and presses any who become involved has by far the greatest chance of achieving a recovery.
I wonder if Watchfinder will be any better in its handling of a watch from a third party seller that turns out to be stolen?
Do hosting platforms generally bring additional safety or risk and complication to the mechanism of purchasing a high value watch?
Perhaps I'm missing it, but how are C24 meant to have resolved this?
Aside from being quicker about their response, I don't see what they could have done differently.
I’m am sure HM’s advice about making noise is correct.
I would expect Watchfinder will do their checks at the point of purchase. They have too much to lose by listing something counterfeit or stolen.
Hosting platforms (Chrono 24 etc). You need to do your own diligence that is for sure, and there is no doubt that stolen watches and super fakes will end up on the platform. The risk of buying from large dealers is probably lower than private individuals. I have both bought and sold happily on that platform, but for a high value used purchase, I don’t think their checks and balances are quite correct yet.
Dave
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, why hasn't this been done yet ? I don't even remember seeing the serial number or pictures actually being posted in this thread ?
Last edited by webvan; 7th June 2023 at 08:29.
How do I edit the title as I can only edit the original post?
I have a full post on the lost and found section with pics and serial numbers, if you google the serial numbers you will see them on a number of forums around Europe and stolen registers.
Seller is protected by law if he bought the watch ‘in good faith’.
The original owner can reclaim ‘revindicatie’ the watch within 3 years after loosing the watch. The seller can claim
‘Indemnification’ of the purchase price from whom he bought it from.
An exception is if the seller bought the watch in a shop ‘consumer sale’ in which case he will be protected by the law. I see this the seller claims this is his position…
These are some main rules applicable in this case.
You need a ‘low key’ attorney at law as this is small case. Costs will be the cost of an attorney, hourly rate. Maybe you can come to a fixed fee. Cost of bailiff is just a few hundred. Cost of court is probably a few hundred.
Allthough it seems straightforward, in practical terms it looks rather difficult. Good luck.
Thank you!
If this guy is genuine then he should also get some legal advice and we can potentially help each other. I am awaiting a call back from another lawyer who said we maybe able to sue for damages but we will see.. If you can recommend a lawyer it would be appreciated, a lot of firms dont seem to be interested for obvious reasons.
Well if you can't edit the title you could ask a moderator but again at the very least put a link in the first message to that "full post on the lost and found section with pics and serial numbers" !
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Do you have the name and address for the person currently in possession of the watch?
I know you mentioned C24 would only pass that data to the police, and I assume the police would likewise not share that data with you. So from a practical standpoint, how can you progress with a lawyer?
OP I think your beef has always been and can only ever be with the guy who scammed you in the first place.
The rest is just stress and expense. Dutch lawyers just like British lawyers will happily take your money and you still will never see the watch.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I dont have this information but a lawyer is able to obtain it.
Right, I think we have reached the end of this thread now to be honest and its going to de-rail.
Thanks everyone for the advice along the way and everything will be passed to a lawyer. I am not expecting much but if the watch ever comes back in to my possession I will let you all know.
Posting Permissions