I don’t know where you’re shopping for Speedmaster and Seamasters but there are no waiting lists. In a moment of rare ubiquity, you can just walk in, hand over money and get them.Originally Posted by Mick P
But the prices are just stupid. In an old man moment for the ages…. I remember the time… you could get a Seamaster for a grand and a Speedy for two. Five grand for a Seamaster is just daft. Seven and a half for a Speedy is no more sensible.
And that IWC Ingenieur… Christ, you’d have to be daft to buy that at today’s price.
By way of a strategy, I buy less often and I’m more keen on a nice discount.
A year ago I looked at a 3861 Speedy, already having one of Ryan’s £2500 bargain 1861s from 2017.
Immediate availability, but no discount unless you regard an extra strap as that, and that’s meant to be OK as it’s building a relationship. I passed.
D
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So I have been on hiatus for almost ten years, but from what I've gathered since I started looking again, there seems to be no lack of interesting stuff out there at the moment from smaller and newer brands/manufacturers. Maybe the move upwards by the big names isn't all that bad as it creates a bit of opportunity for a more diverse market in a price segment previously occupied by them?
As others have said some brands have really hiked prices a lot. The Speedie Pro and new Ingenieur are notable examples, but if people pay the asking price, or close to it ……………
The last 3 watches I bought new were the Seiko Speedtimer Panda which was a bit of a bargain even at RRP and a couple of watches off Chrono24 which whilst new, were well below list, but as has been the case for years pre-owned is generally the way to go.
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
Anyone paying retail for a new Speedmaster must be bonkers. They are easily obtainable on the grey market for a significant discount on retail if you don't mind a lightly used one.
Used <> Grey market.
That said, I agree, a Speedmaster is crazy prices nowadays, but then you'll look very silly when the bottom falls out of the Rolex market if you paid grey market prices.
Of course, most (not all, before Rolex fans get all bent out of shape) people who buy Rolexes aren't interested in the watch itself, they just want the brand, which is how the prices are sustained.
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
100%
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Anyone that paid over retail for a Rolex were also bonkers!
I really think brands have been raising prices knowing suckers are being forced to buy them as package deals to in demand Rolex and Pateks as part of the transaction at some multi brand ADs.
£7.6k for a Speedmaster is laughable. The price of the new Ingenieur is genuinely pathetic.
I paid £1500 for my Speedmaster pro about 10 years ago.
I still think it’s £1500 watch. Not £7000
I do wonder if Rolex, Omega etc have a long term plan or whether there is a strategy to maximise profits whilst watches are at peak popularity. The problem with a luxury good is that it is a bit of a one way street...if sales start to drop off, you can't just lower your retail prices without cheapening the brand.
To the original question I don’t think watches in general are too expensive. They are priced at the level the market supports, if they don’t sell at that price manufacturers will reduce the price.
People have to decide what watches are worth to them. If they don’t want to pay the current price, they either don’t buy or move down the value curve. There are plenty of watches available from a fiver upwards.
The Christopher Ward C63 now seems to be a £1500 watch. Would you say that compares favourably with a Speedmaster Pro?
Mick, do you think your comments through before you post? Walk into a Porsche dealer during fairly normal times and you'll almost certainly get a discount off a mainstream model. Try and get a discount off a limited variant (911 GT3 for example) and you'll struggle. What does that say about Porsche' brand value?
after what happened to you on your holidays, I thought that you'd be less defensive about watches that command a premium and more positive about watches that look good, are well made but are not quite as sought after.
All this talk of a Speedmaster - one of the most iconic watches of all time being considered too expensive by some at under £7.5k says a lot. IMO they were underpriced - we were lucky to have got them cheap/cheaper in the past.
Every luxury good generally increases with time - that’s life. What else are you buying that you think is getting better value? It’s not other watch brands that’s for sure - so either you are content with what you’ve got, still in the market for new watches, moving on to previous models, or concentrating on more vintage models that offer more for your money… or why are you still following?
Watch sales are increasing by value, with little signs of decline, averaging over 7% per annum over 10 years, and over 27% from 2020-2022 alone. Moaning about the reality is…
It's just a matter of time...
Yes, but their pricing analysists were obviously happy that this was the correct price for the watch and the company was making a decent profit selling them, as they remained around this price for an extended period of time. Then Omega finally woke up one day and decided they wanted to move themselves up a notch in the watchmaker hierarchy and hugely inflate the price in an attempt to align the publics perception of them with brands such as Rolex with only basic upgrades to the watch. I can understand how this works with Rolex, but when you can just go on Chrono24 and buy a brand new model for £2k under RRP and have it the following day I wonder how the boutiques sell any at all.
I'd much rather have a vintage model for only a little more outlay than a modern sterile version.
Down the value curve? Price curve maybe, but not value.
Prices are driven by low interest rates and as they go up demand will falter .. and discounts on Rolex will be available ..
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In my view, I feel there are 2 separate conclusions. On one hand, in the super high end stuff (im talking Patek minute repeaters, hand finished watches etc), the prices for these watches have been "too low" considering the craftsmanship and skill required to make one. Watches like these were historically made for royalty and consequently is not something that was historically "available to the masses" anyway. Prices for these watches are now rapidly increasing again, but I think it is the way it has always been and there are no shortage of demand there as they are considered "Real" watchmaking.
The other discussion is the more "mass" stuff. Your Rolexes, Run of the mill Pateks, Richemont branded watches etc etc. Typically the watches in the £5K-£30K range give or take. These watches are mostly machine finished, produced in fairly large quantities, and many of them do not require decades of training and experience to make. The pricing strategy behind this group of watches is mainly marketing and the target buyers are for the more "aspirational" crowd and perhaps some speculators as well. By the way I wanna make it clear that Im not saying people who buy these watches are pretenders, not at all. I own Pateks and Rolexes myself, but this is just my opinion of the pricing issue.
Thats why there is now an increasing group of buyers questioning the "value" of an IWC ingeniur, or Patek 5167A. The truth is, from a "craftsmanship" perspective, there is very little value. You're buying the "percieved" exclusivity and brand value.
Good point.
Let's take the IWC Pilot's Chrono 41 with the green dial. I'm fairly confident that maybe 16 months ago or even less it was A$10,000 here in Perth but now, it has jumped to A$12,800!!! I don't get it and ultimately, it puts you off the brands.You can keep telling me I'm not the customer base and perhaps never was but seriously, who is. So, because of "supply and demand", the prices are on point and will therefore increase as much in another 18 months and guess what folks, they're still good value.
Last edited by stix; 14th April 2023 at 01:53.
September 2019 I paid £3200 for a new speedmaster 20% discount from the list price at the time of £4000
Today new variant of the same watch with no achievable discount to have £6400 double what I paid 3 and half years ago does that sound ok??
At the time I still considered the speedy expensive for what I paid
As a relative newcomer to watch collecting (mid 30s, circa 8 years into the hobby) I certainly find prices prohibitive.
I make very good money and could afford a Submariner or SMP but I'm put off by the inflated prices. I enjoy the hobby but can't validate the cost especially given my generations position with the housing market.
As other have mentioned I think as boomers die off, these companies may struggle to maintain their prices .
I hope you’re not in marketing!
I have only ever held one Chris.Ward and that was a few years ago - can’t say I was impressed at the time, but it was a far cheaper watch than £1500.
I am pretty sure the modern CW would be similar quality to my older Speedy Pro, CW have made great strides in their case and movements. Whilst Omega have improved the Speedmaster in recent years I am not sure it is 6 times better.
CW also have a habit of heavily discounting their watches so not sure anyone pays full price.
However, If they were both the same price I know which one I would pick based purely on looks and heritage.
Whilst we are all moaning (ok some are) about prices, one thing is in our benefit, the price rises are reflected in the value of our collections. These have also risen. So it’s not all bad.
Last edited by Sinnlover; 14th April 2023 at 08:24.
The market supports the price, I think long term it won’t continue … watches won’t hold the same fascination to the next generations.
Is it?The Christopher Ward C63 now seems to be a £1500 watch
https://www.christopherward.com/spor...-S00W1-B0.html
Is that the list price now for the `bog standard` Speedy Pro Moonwatch?
Is it now a Co-Axial?
Manual wind NLA?
What`s the ref now for the Moonwatch?
Yep I definitely feel they're silly expensive now. As many have said, the inflation busting price rises over the years have made what was previously a stretch that I felt was worth it into a now eye watering planning exercise.
I think end of the day the watch manufacturers will still sell a boatload - but to mainly people with one or two really good watches versus people with a mid to large size collection of decent variety.
When I started this WIS journey I remember the days of trotting into Leeds multiple times a year and blowing about 2.5K on a variety of Breitlings and Omegas of the time - thinking that was a comfortable amount to be spending on a watch. Hell i remember buying my LV at £3030 thinking that was expensive at the time.
The last time I seriously looked at a Porsche was when I was Running a Jag that I liked and my wife was running a Honda Civic which she also liked. When we arrived at the Dealers the Salesman made it clear that all prices were non negotiable. Anyway the wife took the view that she would look like mutton dresses as Lamb in such a car so declined and I just preferred the Jag. So no Porsche for us.
I am currently in Spain but back in the UK next week and am wearing a 1954 Gold JLC Powermatic. It is only 34mm in dia and I sold the gold bracelet for scrap and bought a brown leather strap which tones it down nicely. The major drawback is that it is not waterproof so requires care when wearing it. I am, however, growing to slowly liking it.
I am returning back to Spain late May and am still wobbling on whether to wear the Explorer1 which is the most discreet Rolex I got. I never thought I would see the day when a small provincial Spanish town is just as rife in watch crime as a capital city such as Barcelona or London.
My watch buying days are now over so the price means very little to me but the point I am making (and to be honest I think I am wasting my time) is that it is the wealthier clientele who are dictating the way the market is moving and not us. The thoughts of us lot carry no weight at all.
Sapphire Sandwich on bracelet.
A hesalite 'bog standard' moonwatch is £6400.
When I started with my first 'expensive watch' in the late 90s, I bought a Seamaster Professional from Watches of Distinction for £525, followed by a new Speedmaster Moonwatch in 2001 for £1000 from an AD who had it on sale. I was a student - not well off, just saved my money up. I can't imagine students buying these watches nowadays!
https://www.christopherward.com/spor...-S00W0-TK.html
Depends on timing.
I paid every so slightly over RRP for a BLNR & did pretty nicely thankyou when I traded it.
Those that paid £12k for an LN Daytona when they were £9,500 RRP were not so bonkers either.
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
In house movement with five days power reserve for EUR 2075, I don't think that's a bad price for what you get.
Indeed, and hardly representative of the range.
When you live in the past this is the issue.
Perhaps they will. Afterall there's still not real alternative to a luxury wristwatch for men, as a piece of jewellery or status. Women still covet diamonds, and will continue to do so, as long as the marketing machine keeps driving desirability. I see modern luxury watches fall into that category now.
Don't forget the latest crop of teenage kids are falling over themselves to spend £15 on a bottle of Prime (£2 energy drink promoted by YouTubers). Those YouTubers and influencers will continue drive luxury goods, watches included.
In my late teens (90s) most lads could name about three watch brands - Tag, Rolex, Breitling. Teens today could identify APs, RMs, Pateks, Rolex and more because of rap music videos and Youtube content and some are willing to do anything to get their hands on them.
Just wear the Explorer Mick, enjoy the sense of adventure, managed risk, after all that´s what the watch is meant to embody, crafted in the tradition of... and pay a little more attention to your surroundings, avoid crowds especially pikey markets, if you´re really fearful stick to main thoroughfares where the Police patrol...leastways in Cartagena they do. Can´t speak for your burg´ but having lived almost 20 years in that London and now having spent a good dozen here, I´ve a strong conviction it´s safer here...I´ve yet to experience either the same sense of incipient violence or indeed violence as we experienced in London, typically a lot less anger on the roads here too in my experience.
Last edited by Passenger; 14th April 2023 at 10:42.
What is too expensive? I wouldn’t buy new the current range of Rolex and Omega but I did in the passt.
Current growing markets like China and India are getting more and more wealthy. That market is enormous. They pay gladly these new prices. Heck, they even buy a Rolex if they can’t pay for other regular expenses. It’s all about status there.
That makes the Speedmaster Cal. 321 'Ed White' almost good value at £14k list - especially as it's so rare as to be almost unobtainable.
Well after a several spikes in BoE base rate in the last 6-9 months you're going to see that reversed over the next 12-24 months. And as for discounts on new Rolex watches from an AD...........good luck with that hope/dream....
“The men trading their Rolexes for plastic sports watches”
https://www.ft.com/content/afc566af-4592-4dd8-9685-413635926805
Quite an interesting article saying that many people are distancing themselves from outward displays of wealth.
Last edited by Christian; 14th April 2023 at 10:52.
Pay wall unfortunately, not the daftest move in the world though, I would think, at a time of record dislocation between the haves and have nots, cost of living crisis.
I sold a stunning big box Speedmaster I bought from Wes a few years ago to a good friend at work who had always wanted a Speedmaster for the same price I bought from Wes.
There’s no way I’ll ever see one at that price again and tbh that’s fine, but the days of getting a lovely watch for around £2-£4k are long gone (I include Rolex Sub’s and Explorers) in that range.
And for that reason I’m happy to wear a Garmin as my daily wearer and a Timefactor SS variant if I go out on a night now, I’m no longer conscious of walking around with a £7k watch on my wrist and putting it away in a safe all the time.
It’s each to their own but I do feel the watch companies have taken the pi— over the last 8 years with price hikes.
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That certainly doesn’t apply to the eastern markets.
I'm in sales! A bit direct I know but seems like not many people of my age are interested in mechanical watches. Anecdotal evidence of course. And the below counterpoint is a good one!I hope you’re not in marketing!
Clearly the market is currently supporting these high prices, but they are mainly selling either to people who are buying one miilestone watch to wear for years or decades, or to the very wealthy who can afford to splurge on more. It's less sustainable for people who aren't the 1%, but still somehow manage to have a 'hobby' of collecting luxury goods. It used to be possible when pre-owned and vintage were were a niche interest, interest rates were rock bottom, and watch prices had plenty of room to rise, but not so much now.
In the end, inflating prices are part of the business model, as they persuade buyers that they are investing. But wages aren't inflating as much as prices, and tastes may change, leading to an Emperor's new clothes moment. Then brands will have painted themselves into a corner. Nonetheless, there's no sign of this happening imminently, and the higher end brands are mainly aiming at a group of people who are living in a very comfortable parallel universe, where there's no such thing as a cost of living crisis.
That's just it, as goods that live and die on their reputation as luxury, they can't decrease prices, only raise them.
The time will come when the pre owned market collapses as people can get the same quality at a fraction of the price and many brands will struggle to adjust to the competition.
Chinese watchmaking is basically emulating the start of swiss watchmaking at the moment. Churning out clones and fakes until the quality is good enough to put their own names on the dial and then building a brand off of the price to quality ratio. All they lack is a local distribution network and a truly unique design but that won't take long in the world of ecommerce and microbrands.
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I'm in a similar position, the only "value" buys I see at the moment are 2nd hand Breitling. Everything else seems to have inflated out of my comfort zone
I bought a Rolex Submariner with my first commission payment - £600 - in 1988. I was 19 wearing Next suits and M&S loafers - I was in an average job on average wages (albeit in London in a sales job). I can’t see that happening today! - oh, and there was no waiting list, it was in the window. The prices today are ludicrous imho. I fully believe it’s the dying gasps of the industry, I don’t think todays teenagers care about watches - they’re old fashioned and the only bit they care about is the brand, which apart from the wealthy kids will be beyond them. I spent my 20’s and 30’s wearing a myriad of todays dream watches and the vast majority were under £2500 brand new, and I was never on a waiting list. I find the current situation a bit sad tbh
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