Reply With QuoteQuality rant!
This thread has been doing the rounds in my head and I keep coming to the same conclusion;
The title is wrong.
'Are watches YOU WANT becoming too expensive?' Seems more appropriate.
Omegas pricing has achieved orbit faster than the speedy ever did and 'poor man's rolex' is becoming as hard to get as one!
Yet, we had an official speedmaster look-a-likey release for peanuts and the seiko nh35 has given way to microbrands that deliver ridiculous quality for the price of a quartz tissot...
Not to mention that miyota is fast becoming the new eta, with a number of microbrand owners preferring the 9015 to anything sellita, and it's far cheaper to boot!
The watches we once lusted after are inflating faster than the pound, but there's a wealth of, dare I say, better quality options for far less. We just tend to gloss over them because the wrong name is on the dial....
Watches are more affordable than ever, it's branding that has become hyperinflated.
Ahhh, I can go to sleep now.
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Quality rant!
The real issue is that money has become less valuable. Physical assets are still worth their value in peoples' eyes - hence demand for them remains high.
I bet all money you pay end up in advertising/marketing budget. Not for actual cost of steel and brass.
I see F1 racing and all I can see is ”ROLEX” on circuit……TAG on the timing and Red Bull(?)…IWC on Mercedes…..
I even saw IWC logo in one of the football stadium….I can’t remember which one….
Richemont are the most guilty on this. JLC, IWC and Panerai eye watering prices. Omega speedmaster was underpriced for a long time, feels relatively fair now given that they have given a few upgrades, though still a bit painful for those that missed out on a good deal.
A shame, arguably luxury watches and good value never belonged in the same sentence anyway, but the big hikes doesn’t calibrate well with me. Also Rolex doesn’t seem overly expensive now, in comparison to Richemont brands especially.
Yes, if all you want to do is tell the time
Any other reason then it's relative to your wealth
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Yes, true. Sub £1850 cheaper than an Ingenieur with 3x WR.Originally Posted by ac11111
Difficult to find fault with this argument as much as I'd like to! My Casio F91w is objectively more useful than any of my more expensive watches...
Last edited by jjjamie; 18th April 2023 at 13:00.
Agreed - the price of clockwork watches has nothing to do with their utility, robustness or accuracy (a g-shock wins on every one of these metrics).
So in my view, “are watches getting too expensive?”, asked about the premium brands like Omega and Rolex, becomes a straightforward question of what the market will stand - at this point: significant escalation of prices with no end in sight. Brand value, projection of status, investment opportunity - I’m sure these factors play a significant role in customers’ comfort with this, but if people stop buying the product then the prices will have to fall.
I do suspect that some of those who bought as an investment are going to get their pants pulled down, but that’s based on my intuitive scepticism and core belief that nothing goes up forever. (Yes, I know the general trend is upwards, but the knowledge that this applies to the 20-30 year view is scant comfort to the person who has to sell in 5 years…)
I will say that the price elevator has priced me out of big chunks of the new premium watch market, and so dampened my enthusiasm for a lot of it; my attention is now on micro-brands and things I find interesting/quirky, where I think there is plenty of value to be found.
Don't be fooled into thinking the Miyota movements are on a par with the ETA 2824 and Sellita SW200.1. You get what you pay for.
Many microbrand owners would disagree with you.
The 2824 and its copies are ancient now, and still have handwinding issues.
If you're under the impression that swiss made is a magical word that bestows quality upon anything it graces then the LJP G100 exists. Magical swiss made miyota that is a large step up from a 2824 at practically the same price as a top grade.
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I’ve worked on plenty of examples of the Miyota 9915 and 9039 in recent years, I’ve also worked on plenty of ETA 2824 and Sellita variants. The ETA and Sellita give better figures on test, they exhibit better isochronism and are generally more consistent. The reversers can stick if not lubricated correctly and excessive hand-winding over a prolonged period can cause the winding wheel to rub against the mainplate, but other than this they’re fairly bombproof. In my experience Miyotas vary in quality quite markedly and its bit uncommon to find the movement has been over- oiled, after stripdown and careful lubrication they usually run much better. Precision is variable, a good one can be made to run within COSC spec with a but of careful tweaking but there’s every likelihood the positional agreement will be outside spec and can’t be improved.
I’m under no illusions regarding the current definition of ‘Swiss Made’ and I’ve never heard of an LJP G100!
£1.20 now...get with the times you rich git. Do you know the price of a pint of milk these days ;)?
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Are watches becoming too expensive?
They were ALWAYS too expensive.
Are sellers of expensive watches becoming more sensitive?
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...1-latest-model
No.
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Not relating to watch movement but....Imagine if VW made a watch movement....It would perform impeccably on test.....
https://calibercorner.com/la-joux-pe...iber-ljp-g100/
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I seem to recollect our host once posting that he had significantly fewer of his Miyota powered models coming back with mechanical issues than the ETA alternatives. I might be misremembering though.
And continue to perform so for 60,000 hours until it requires a new (dual mass) rotor, which is designed such that replacement requires an almost complete movement strip down, using unique to VW, special tools!
This is a tremendously helpful perspective to hear--many thanks. I've often wondered if the ETA 2824 and its better clones are worth the extra expense over the new Miyota. I've actually had good enough luck with the Miyota, though it certainly looks pretty industrial in its finishing. What would be fascinating to hear is if the LJP G100 has overcome the problems of the run-of-the-mill Miyota 9xxx series or if the problems are in the design itself.
That poster has a dubious view of the industry, I'd verify the Information by reading about people like Chris Vail who have a successful watch brand and openly prefer miyota movements for a variety of reasons.
There's also the issue of eta movements simply not being available anymore. Whilst eta kept a high bar for their movements the copycats didn't...
Sellita - winding issues, rotor failure.
Soprod - straight up failed to deliver shipments due to mass of movement failures.
STP - high failure rate on the Swan neck versions.
Ronda - Poor tolerances, tear down showed thinner plates and gears similar to Chinese 2824 copies.
The 9015 by comparison, has a lower failure rate than all of these and is cheaper. Oh its thinner too.
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I’m aware of the availability issues with ETA, a microbrand I have dealings with has stopped using them for this reason. I’m not aware of problems with Sellita apart from the odd one with sticking reversers, never encountered problems with the rotor and I’m curious to know what the alleged problems are and what percentage failure rates this comment is based on.
I’ve nothing against the Miyota movements, for small manufacturers the Miyota is a cost - effective choice with no inherent issues, but the admittedly more expensive Sellita is a better option in my opinion provided the user accepts the higher cost. Not sure whether availability of Sellita movements is a problem compared to the Miyota.
As for Soprod, I’ve only worked on a couple but I wasn’t impressed, unlike Sellita parts are not available from the usual outlets. That’s also a drawback with Miyota but a replacement movement can be bought for a reasonable price.
The LJP G100 is interesting, I’d never heard of it till I followed Chris’s link. Interesting that the balance and balance cock are different, looks like a copy of the Etachron design which Seiko also use. It isn’t obvious how they increase the power reserve from the base Miyota movement, beat rate is the same and I’d be v. surprised if the barrel is altered. Possibly a longer thinner mainspring combined with improvements to the escapement to reduce the torque requirements? If anyone can elaborate rather than simply sing the praises of Miyota or this Miyota- based offering I’m keen to lean, every day’s a schoolday.
Tear down of the g100 movement.
https://www.thenakedwatchmaker.com/la-joux-perret-g100
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Just had a very quick read and I smell LOTS of bullshit. What's your personal opinion? Don't recycle links etc, tell us what you really think based on your own experience. Have youi ever taken a watch apart yourself and formed your own opinion?
I stopped reading when I saw the comment about resin holding the hairspring into the stud.......standard practice for many years and nothing to brag about.
Not too expensive to buy - supply and demand will always prove that.
And a thriving pre-owned market means for many watches you will keep decent residual value.
But too expensive to wear? Yes, almost. I now choose what watch I'll put on as much by the danger of having it stolen as by what I want on my wrist. It's a highly organised and calculated business which means that prosperous bits of Central London in daylight are as dangerous as rougher neighbourhoods in the dead of night.
I bought my 16 year old son a Rolex the day he was born but he's not having it. Its worth 5 times what I paid for it and I don't want him getting stabbed trying to hold onto it.
I’ve retitled this thread because to me, it’s no longer a question whether watches are becoming too expensive, rather, that they ARE too expensive.
They’re a simple, albeit often very precise mechanism, but you have to ask why can the Chinese fit a a Japanese designed, reasonably accurate movement for £100, whilst the Swiss charge 10x, 50x or whatever more.
To give an example, one of my Smiths Everests with a reasonable Miyota movement is accurate to within 6 seconds a day, whereas my new Tudor BB54 with an in-house COSC movement, is around 1 second a day. Is that really worth £2900? And if so, why don’t we buy Quartz watches, because my Timex Q chronograph with a Seiko quartz movement is accurate to with a second every couple of months.
So, please explain to me why we buy them, because I struggle to come up with a rational, or emotional reason to explain it.
Last edited by YCymro; 3rd June 2023 at 18:55. Reason: Autocorrection mistakes
Nice things cost money , for anything
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Because we’re worth it
nothing can be done about it, many many people came to that conclusion a decade or more ago
i feel the same about electric cars, i think they are comically overpriced. Near £30K only gets you a naff Corsa, i would not buy it even if they had a half price sale
Because they are Jewellery not functional items - it all makes more sense when you accept that and forget about the specs.
Have you, then why is ‘becoming’ still in the title?
I would have reworded the thread title to remove "discuss" altogether....................
A horrible term.....................
I agree but quietly, don´t want to bring their electric wrath down upon us.
It´s the only explanation that satisfies...where and when a big to do about the specs is made it, it´s a marketing- sales gimmick, unique selling proposition. E.g. we have this FEATURE on our watch Mr prospective buyer...it won´t break being fired out of an aeroplane ejection seat, the ADVANTAGE to you is it´s a ´tougher´watch than all others, the BENEFIT to you Mr prospective buyer, you and your watch can safely eject from your fighter plane!!! You will be the envy of all your friends! FAB...basic sales training and Thunderbirds!
Marvellous stuff, I mean it.
´
What if you dont have time to eject,will the watch still be ok,you might be interested to know how long youve been waiting for the ambulance to arrive.It´s the only explanation that satisfies...where and when a big to do about the specs is made it, it´s a marketing- sales gimmick, unique selling proposition. E.g. we have this FEATURE on our watch Mr prospective buyer...it won´t break being fired out of an aeroplane ejection seat, the ADVANTAGE to you is it´s a ´tougher´watch than all others, the BENEFIT to you Mr prospective buyer, you and your watch can safely eject from your fighter plane!!! You will be the envy of all your friends! FAB...basic sales training and Thunderbirds!
Marvellous stuff, I mean it.
´
well, if you want accurate timekeeping watches are not expensive at all.
if you want jewellery and status, they are.
20 years ago the hype was not so big, now it's over the top.
with all this microbrands and online stores stuff going on the industry has to flex muscles and so the hype gets histerical to boost brand value.
...
BUBI
@porque.racing
Likewise, you've gone to a fancy dress party as an RAF crash test dummy, it's less fun than you imagined, you glance at your watch to see how soon you can reasonably exit/ 'eject' like an Englishman, and it still tells the time, as you catch the last bus home!
Last edited by Passenger; 5th June 2023 at 09:12.
Interesting question so here are some numbers relevant to the Speedy which has been the focus of much of the discussion:
In 1968 a new Speedy was about £80 as far as I can see, the average house was £4k and the average wage was £1.1k
So the price of a speedy has increased by 80 times, house prices by 71 times and wages by only 33 times.
The speedy now costs over two months wages whereas in 1968 it cost less than a months wages. On the other hand in 1968 it would have been 20% of a house deposit and today not much more at 22% of a house deposit.
As to whether either houses or watches represent good value as an investment here is what that £80 might have returned since 1968 compared to the S&P 500
Invested in a speedmaster: £10.5k
Invested in a house: £5.6k
BUT invested in the stock market: £16k
(I'm assuming the watch is in great condition here. Knock some off if not.)
Last edited by IanK; 5th June 2023 at 20:22.
To add fuel to the fire, JLC increased their prices on June 1st.
In April, I bought a Reverso medium classic for £6750, a price I thought expensive for a two hand watch. But that was my decision, it is my "exit" expensive watch and a grail watch I'd wanted for several years.
On June 1st, the price rose to £7800. So a 15% price hike of £1050. Thank god I bought it a few months earlier and my sympathy to anyone considering a JLC purchase this year.
This basically sums it up. Clearly the Swiss brands are making more profit, so clearly it works for them, but it is hard to deny that watches have not gone up in RRP in comparison to a lot of other items, exacerbated by the brands control of where they sell them. The main thing is that wages have not kept up with consumer goods price inflation. The increasing price of 'low end' Swiss quartz watches like the Tag F1's is as big an example as a Speedmaster for 7K.
What also needs to be included is the rise of cheap credit.
Also, if anyone thinks the rise in cost of the items is because of a rise in manufacturing quality at equal proportion. Hahah...no. That's not how you make higher profit. There will be some quality improvement, usually due to more efficient processes, but not nearly enough to justify the increases.
Any reason for the price increase? Price adjusted to the Franc, Euro, Ugandan Shilling? Increase in price of frozen orange juice (Trading places) CEO of JLC needed to buy his son for Christmas the GI Joe with the Kung Fu grip (Trading places)
Just carrying on the theme always remember, that reverso may be £7800 but in Philly its worth fifty bucks
There’s something else going on with the perception of a mechanical watch too imho which is adding some kind of mystique for younger generations - which is somewhat lost on the middle aged. I remember getting my first smartphone and being genuinely blown away by what it could do. It felt like a real life prop from Star Trek, but somehow better. Your average 20 and 30 something just takes these marvels for granted, but a small clockwork watch made of tiny moving parts seems exotic and magical - which the marketing plays into. Ridiculous when you think about it - it’s such old technology and most watch movements are banged out by their thousands in factories like everything else - but for younger people they are somehow worth big money just because they contain cogs and springs not chips and batteries!
Love these posts. Thanks for the sum up.
I had more the presumption that they want to flash with the brand. Just A status symbol telling I have the money.
Great stats and comparison, thanks
Agreed. Anything that doesn't need plugging in to recharge is a mystery.
I'd be inclined to the Status Symbol too...the marketing leans very heavily into this.
Last edited by Passenger; 6th June 2023 at 09:43.
Watches have only become an investment in the last 10-15 years and only certain brands, my take on the watch price rises is the availability of cheap credit to the average man in the street £100 a month will get you a speedmaster. A bit like car prices, when it’s only £299 a month for 48 months you don’t actually care how much the actual car is until the unfortunate happens like someone on here when you hit the £40k mark and get hit by the extra road tax.
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Branding is expensive. You can’t compare the price of Smiths with Tudor.
Eddie doesn’t have David Beckham on the payroll, or Lady Gaga. Eddie doesn’t sponsor a pro cycling team or the All Blacks Rugby team, nor does he sponsor the rugby World Cup and surfing and sailing events around the globe.
These things cost much more money than the robots that assemble watches. And that’s where the lions share of your money goes when buying into a famous brand.
"Federico talks watches" released an interesting video yesterday about JLC and their price increases (which have increased all across the world and not just the UK).
The main conspiracy theories suggest JLC have considerably increased prices over the last few years to better reflect their quality and to take JLC one notch up the pyramid. Other people suggest it's just capitalising on increased demand whilst others suggest its all to do with Richmont.
Whatever the truth, JLC does appear to be losing customers from the bottom with the hope of replacing them with more wealthy customers; for me a long time admirer and "unofficial" ambassador for the brand, it's quite sad.
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