Flexible working rejection post maternity leave

[watchstudent]

Obviously I am not asking for legal advice, my wife is contacting her union but just wondered if anyone had any experience with this sort of thing.

My wife is a teacher at a private school, we recently had a baby and so has been on maternity leave. She applied for flexible working to come back part-time at 2 days a week. This has been rejected with the school stating that there is no part-time role for her. They have not attempted to employ another part-time teacher to make up a full-time post. Just stated they don't need a part-time, 2 day a week teacher. We are awaiting a case worker from her union, initial thoughts from the union is that they have not followed proper procedure and have not made any attempts to accommodate my wife.

This school is unfortunately run by men with massive ego problems, honestly, they are c****. They don't deserve my wife as a teacher but she likes the school and some of the other staff so we will fight it as far as is practicable.

Any thoughts or experiences/pitfalls would be MUCH appreciated.

[Suds]

Unfortunately, I think in practice it sits with hoping any employer is accommodating unless your wife can prove that the employers decision/reasoning is perverse. Not following the correct procedure may only result in the employer reconsidering the request a second time by ‘following’ the correct procedure? Hopefully her TU can negotiate an acceptable compromise (after suggesting her colleagues are in full support and may consider industrial action, if only by working to rule and withdrawing all goodwill)?

[watchstudent]

What I don't understand is that they have offered her her full time job back (unfortunately this could never work with me working the hours I do and not having family around to help us), therefore if she didn't come back full time then they would have to employ another full time teacher. So surely, to accommodate her they can employ someone for 3 days a week... it would be a very easy job role to fill.

[Kingstepper]

Full time teacher could be considered preferable for the students than 2x part-time.

[gunner]

As long as they've treated the request reasonably I don't think they're required to try to employ anyone else.

[Suds]

I don’t think that this link is good news…

https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working/...exible-working

[lewie]

When I was still at work we had quite a few who requested flexible working- we tried to accommodate where possible but I think that was the line -
Where possible - a few wanted some wacky work patterns that would make filling the gaps very difficult
Probably the wrong repky but when my kids were young we worked our jobs around them and their care

[ralphy]

What I don't understand is that they have offered her her full time job back (unfortunately this could never work with me working the hours I do and not having family around to help us), therefore if she didn't come back full time then they would have to employ another full time teacher. So surely, to accommodate her they can employ someone for 3 days a week... it would be a very easy job role to fill.

Whilst the employer is required to give your wife her job back after maternity leave I don't think they have to agree to changing the contract to a job sharing role if they don't wish to do so, but as already said they should give their reasons for not wishing to do so.

R

[mr.chef]

How did your wife make her case to show her employer that her request was reasonable and easily accommodated by her employer? Did she for instance offer to stay in her full time role until the school had managed to find another teacher to cover the three days?

[watchstudent]

The issue is that the school has made no effort to try and accommodate her working part-time. She isn't asking for anything wacky, just can't make full-time work (it would literally not be feasible in our situation). She would never need to work full-time while they search for a 3 day a week teacher. They could advertise it tomorrow and find about 50 applicants the next day.

The main issue is that this school has in the short-time my wife has worked at this school forced out multiple women of child bearing age and menopausal women if they ask for any slight alterations to their work pattern, along with then employing their own wives to fill those roles! They have been sued once for the behaviour just refuse to change their ways.

[lewie]

Doesn’t sound a good employer

[blackal]

I have no idea what onus there is on an employer to facilitate job-sharing but there are pros and cons for them.

Pro - they should get a bit of flexibility should one of the two job-sharers need an extra day off occasionally, for whatever reason..............


Con - I've found in life that HR just want what makes their life simpler. Having 2 employed instead of 1 - is a chore to them.

[watchstudent]

Doesn’t sound a good employer

Indeed... run by pathetic little men who seem to hate women.

[lewie]

Indeed... run by pathetic little men who seem to hate women.

Might be an ideal time for a change of employer

[watchstudent]

Might be an ideal time for a change of employer

Well I think it is likely to come to that. Will be a bit of a mammoth task to even get to the interviews for her though in our current situation.

Just seems a bloody shame, here is a highly intelligent woman with 2 degrees from top universities effectively being forced out of work (and she is, it would be so easy for the school to accommodate her). We were willing to put up with the fact that her wage barely covered childcare costs.

Just makes me sad, I think I am more sensitive to it having just had a daughter. Deeply unfair that employers can put women that have the audacity to have children at such a disadvantage.

[stuie-t]

Full time teacher could be considered preferable for the students than 2x part-time.

Agreed, my kids are in private school and I would be quite annoyed if they had different teachers for half the week.


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[learningtofly]

Full time teacher could be considered preferable for the students than 2x part-time.

Agreed, my kids are in private school and I would be quite annoyed if they had different teachers for half the week.


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Indeed, and - rather than being “pathetic little men” - perhaps their response is driven by what they see as protecting their pupils interests. Some very silly assumptions being made above, IMO.

[andyb28]

Indeed... run by pathetic little men who seem to hate women.

Is this because they haven't let your wife have her own way, or are there other misogynistic examples?

[Onelasttime]

Private, or public if you prefer, schools should be abolished. Relics of a class system that perpetuates itself.

Everyone should have the right to a good education regardless of wealth.

I’d tear down the walls in a heartbeat.

[cyrusir]

Well I think it is likely to come to that. Will be a bit of a mammoth task to even get to the interviews for her though in our current situation.

Just seems a bloody shame, here is a highly intelligent woman with 2 degrees from top universities effectively being forced out of work (and she is, it would be so easy for the school to accommodate her). We were willing to put up with the fact that her wage barely covered childcare costs.

Just makes me sad, I think I am more sensitive to it having just had a daughter. Deeply unfair that employers can put women that have the audacity to have children at such a disadvantage.

I don't think the fact she is a women is the issue here, I'd imagine a male teacher making the same request would get the same answer.

[lewie]

Could you possibly adapt your occupation to facilitate?
The school have held the job for you wife and quite rightly so bur it’s not really their responsibility to accommodate you childcare problems- in my opposition (that is)

[stuie-t]

Private, or public if you prefer, schools should be abolished. Relics of a class system that perpetuates itself.

Everyone should have the right to a good eduction regardless of wealth.

I’d tear down the walls in a heartbeat.

My decision to go private in no way stops the government from providing equally good quality teaching in state schools. Quite the opposite in fact as there are less pupils to be provided for with the same money


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[adrianw]

I was advised that in this situation if I said no, I would loose in a constructive/unfair/ discrimination case, I said yes

[Rodder]

It’s sad that even on this thread, some people don’t understand the discrimination new mothers face. To not even discuss a part time role is discriminatory and on a human level cruel. Possibly after the discussion, it may be decided it’s not possible but I can’t think why. I’m generally a libertarian but Public schools quite clearly maintain a the gap in social mobility and is one of the very last bastions of mysogony in leadership. I suppose within 10 years time, whether it be due to losing charitable status, quotas at universities or other means they’ll be significantly less any how.

[Rodder]

Agreed, my kids are in private school and I would be quite annoyed if they had different teachers for half the week.


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Genuinely, why would this annoy you?

[Suds]

If men were the birth givers we wouldn’t be having this conversation, and, childcare would be free.

[stuie-t]

Genuinely, why would this annoy you?

Because I don’t believe that having 2 teachers is good for anyone’s education. The teachers need to get to know their students and their development progress and needs. If they are only around for half the time then they will clearly miss out on much of that and much time will be wasted with one teacher briefing the other, the parents having to discuss matters with both teachers…
There is generally a reason why some jobs are not part time.


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[Stilgoe1972]

Men can take maternity leave too. Maybe that’s an option or you could do a job share ?


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[Tooks]

It’s admittedly a while since I’ve been at school, but I remember being taught by multiple teachers.

My parents spoke to multiple teachers on parents evening.

On the subject of the OPs wife’s request, I don’t think it sounds unreasonable, and certainly the school should have investigated it and made the case why they think it couldn’t work if they were against.

[TaketheCannoli]

Dear oh dear. Spoken like the entitled parent of a private school kid. You do realise that parents, for a multitude of reasons, can’t work full time. That doesn’t make them any less capable or dedicated. We have a Director General role filled by two women on job share and they’re highly successful.

I hope the sun always shines on you back there in the 1950s.

Because I don’t believe that having 2 teachers is good for anyone’s education. The teachers need to get to know their students and their development progress and needs. If they are only around for half the time then they will clearly miss out on much of that and much time will be wasted with one teacher briefing the other, the parents having to discuss matters with both teachers…
There is generally a reason why some jobs are not part time.


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[dougair]

Because I don’t believe that having 2 teachers is good for anyone’s education. The teachers need to get to know their students and their development progress and needs. If they are only around for half the time then they will clearly miss out on much of that and much time will be wasted with one teacher briefing the other, the parents having to discuss matters with both teachers…
There is generally a reason why some jobs are not part time.


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My daughter has two teachers one for half the week and the other for the other half, seems to be working just fine.

I guess it’s easier to get to know the individual children when there aren’t 30+ kids in the class…

[Kingstepper]

It’s admittedly a while since I’ve been at school, but I remember being taught by multiple teachers.

My parents spoke to multiple teachers on parents evening.

On the subject of the OPs wife’s request, I don’t think it sounds unreasonable, and certainly the school should have investigated it and made the case why they think it couldn’t work if they were against.

Don't think we know what type of school the one in question is but at primary schools I and my children had a single teacher each year. Of course at senior school things are different.

[Stilgoe1972]

My daughter had 2 teachers during primary school for 1 year. It didn’t work out very well to be honest. If I had paid lots of money out for that I wouldn’t have been happy at all. I’m sure it can work but it didn’t for us or my more importantly my daughter.


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[stuie-t]

It’s admittedly a while since I’ve been at school, but I remember being taught by multiple teachers.

My parents spoke to multiple teachers on parents evening.

On the subject of the OPs wife’s request, I don’t think it sounds unreasonable, and certainly the school should have investigated it and made the case why they think it couldn’t work if they were against.

It depends on the age of the child whether they have one tutor for most or all subjects or multiple teachers. At prep school it’s generally one form tutor for most subjects with specialists for music, PE, languages etc. It might be easier to work part time if you just teach a specialist subject and don’t also have a form tutor role.

I completely disagree that these schools stop social mobility. Most private schools are not like Eton or Harrow. The typical parents of the kids at our schools are other professionals and those with small family businesses, not hereditary wealth. I grew up in a council house, went to a state school and started work at 18. The schools recognise that most families are working, and unlike state schools they go out of their way to support this by providing before and after school activities and wrap around care from 8-6 at reasonable cost.


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[watchstudent]

Is this because they haven't let your wife have her own way, or are there other misogynistic examples?

I believe there is a pattern of forcing women out when they make reasonable requests that differ from the status quo. I have also had conversations with them and they are... unpleasant.

This thread hasn't really gone in the direction I had planned, was maybe hoping for someone who had been in a similar situation. Nevermind...

But there are a few things I would like to address.

This would be the same situation if it were a man?? Stupid comment. This is an inherently female situation. To think otherwise is just perpetuating this sexism.

Perhaps, actually, asking a watch forum with predominantly wealthy middle aged white men as members was naive. I sort of believed that despite demographics people would still be able to see this as blatantly unfair based pretty much solely on gender.

But yes, perhaps it would be best if primary school teachers were all fat white men like the leadership team is at this school.

If our society genuinely wants women to have equal, equal, not greater than, opportunities than their willy wagging colleagues then this sort of treatment must become unacceptable.

Edit: the school already splits classes based on subject so having more than one teacher wouldn't make a difference.

[cyrusir]

I think you need to get a little perspective, a man could want a part time role for a number of reasons, the fact your wife has just had a child is her circumstance but maybe a single father wants a part time week to look after his kids, my point is that it's not that she is a woman, it's that they don't want part time roles be the person male or female.

I don't think it's reasonable for you to expect than an employer changes how they do things because it now suits your family and if your wife is as employable as you say she is then she won't have any difficulties finding the set up you are after elsewhere

[lewie]

Not sure your being 100% fair
You probably right you’re maybe not getting the replies that you want - seriously have you considered a slight role reversal with your position?
And I am being serious from personal experience
And I don’t think I’d want my wife to work in that sort of environment

[watchstudent]

I think you need to get a little perspective, a man could want a part time role for a number of reasons, the fact your wife has just had a child is her circumstance but maybe a single father wants a part time week to look after his kids, my point is that it's not that she is a woman, it's that they don't want part time roles be the person male or female.

I don't think it's reasonable for you to expect than an employer changes how they do things because it now suits your family and if your wife is as employable as you say she is then she won't have any difficulties finding the set up you are after elsewhere

But part-time roles, because of child rearing are, in the vast majority wanted/needed by women.

The "not wanting" part time roles is, in my opinion, not acceptable when it would be very easy to accommodate.

[learningtofly]

I believe there is a pattern of forcing women out when they make reasonable requests that differ from the status quo. I have also had conversations with them and they are... unpleasant.

This thread hasn't really gone in the direction I had planned, was maybe hoping for someone who had been in a similar situation. Nevermind...

But there are a few things I would like to address.

This would be the same situation if it were a man?? Stupid comment. This is an inherently female situation. To think otherwise is just perpetuating this sexism.

Perhaps, actually, asking a watch forum with predominantly wealthy middle aged white men as members was naive. I sort of believed that despite demographics people would still be able to see this as blatantly unfair based pretty much solely on gender.

But yes, perhaps it would be best if primary school teachers were all fat white men like the leadership team is at this school.

If our society genuinely wants women to have equal, equal, not greater than, opportunities than their willy wagging colleagues then this sort of treatment must become unacceptable.

Edit: the school already splits classes based on subject so having more than one teacher wouldn't make a difference.

I think your view is skewed due to your personal stake in this particular situation.

I’ve personally been involved in making decisions on two flexible working requests within my department; one was a man and the other was a woman, and in both cases the consequence would have been a detrimental impact on other team members and/or an inability to properly fulfil the role requirements. My view was shared by business partners in both HR and Employee Relations, both of whom happened to be women; in fact, their objections were more vociferous than my own.

I found that the key in these situations is to try not to be unnecessarily dogmatic or to allow yourself to take a stance based on matters of principle. In both of my cases compromises on both sides were made and a solution agreed.

it’s also worth noting that the relevant legislation doesn’t mean that responses to flexible working have to be in the affirmative. It’s absolutely fine to object if you can demonstrate that it simply isn’t right for the business and/or the role. It has absolutely nothing to do with gender.

[watchstudent]

If they were willing to look into some kind of compromise that would be great, unfortunately it is full time, as you were, or nothing.

Technically, it has nothing to do with gender, in reality it has everything to do with gender. Men are FAR less likely to need to make requests like this. To be clear, this is not some, oh it would be much nicer if Mrs WS only worked 2 days a week, it is a logistical limitation that full time could not work with a kid, we would be flexible, between 1 and 3.5 days and when those days were.

I think your view is skewed due to your personal stake in this particular situation.

I’ve personally been involved in making decisions on two flexible working requests within my department; one was a man and the other was a woman, and in both cases the consequence would have been a detrimental impact on other team members and/or an inability to properly fulfil the role requirements. My view was shared by business partners in both HR and Employee Relations, both of whom happened to be women; in fact, their objections were more vociferous than my own.

I found that the key in these situations is to try not to be unnecessarily dogmatic or to allow yourself to take a stance based on matters of principle. In both of my cases compromises on both sides were made and a solution agreed.

it’s also worth noting that the relevant legislation doesn’t mean that responses to flexible working have to be in tne affirmative. It’s absolutely fine to object if you can demonstrate that it simply isn’t right for the business and/or the role. It has absolutely nothing to do with gender.

[Halitosis]

Fast forward 10 years and I wager you would not want your child to be taught a subject - perhaps 2 lessons per week- by two separate teachers. Especially if you are paying for private schooling.
Have you considered asking your own boss for a job share and going part time?
Just thoughts

[learningtofly]

If they were willing to look into some kind of compromise that would be great, unfortunately it is full time, as you were, or nothing.

Technically, it has nothing to do with gender, in reality it has everything to do with gender. Men are FAR less likely to need to make requests like this. To be clear, this is not some, oh it would be much nicer if Mrs WS only worked 2 days a week, it is a logistical limitation that full time could not work with a kid, we would be flexible, between 1 and 3.5 days and when those days were.

I have to say, if you approached me with the attitude and aggression you’ve displayed here you’d get short thrift (and that’s meant as genuine advice). As for compromise, I said that it pays to pursue that as an option, not that it’s always possible to achieve it.

[watchstudent]

Fast forward 10 years and I wager you would not want your child to be taught a subject - perhaps 2 lessons per week- by two separate teachers. Especially if you are paying for private schooling.
Have you considered asking your own boss for a job share and going part time?
Just thoughts

Unfortunately my job requires night shifts and unpredictable working patterns so it just wouldn’t work.

[adrianw]

My grandchildren under eight go to a private school in Hertfordshire, they have different teachers for various subjects and classroom assistants

[watchstudent]

I have to say, if you approached me with the attitude and aggression you’ve displayed here you’d get short thrift (and that’s meant as genuine advice). As for compromise, I said that it pays to pursue that as an option, not that it’s always possible to achieve it.

Genuinely no aggression here towards yourself. Why would there be?

The responses here have caused me to reflect. Obviously I am biased. I still land on the fact that this situation is borne out of a fundamental sexist flaw in our employment legislation. When a situation would be easily accommodated, then some kind of negotiation should happen towards a workable solution. I am not saying that businesses should go bankrupt but if they cannot make mild accommodations to allow equality in opportunity then women, as a whole have no chance without significantly more sacrifice than the comparable man.

[learningtofly]

Genuinely no aggression here towards yourself. Why would there be?

The responses here have caused me to reflect. Obviously I am biased. I still land on the fact that this situation is borne out of a fundamental sexist flaw in our employment legislation. When a situation would be easily accommodated, then some kind of negotiation should happen towards a workable solution. I am not saying that businesses should go bankrupt but if they cannot make mild accommodations to allow equality in opportunity then women, as a whole have no chance without significantly more sacrifice than the comparable man.

With respect, your problem is in seeing it as (and only as) an equality issue. I suspect it’s not, and I think you need to recognise that.

[lewie]

Are you suggesting that you believe if a male teacher at the school wanted a part time job share to accommodate child care they would facilitate it?
I think the proposal is a massive headache and one they don’t want, be it for a male or female member of staff-

[watchstudent]

Are you suggesting that you believe if a male teacher at the school wanted a part time job share to accommodate child care they would facilitate it?
I think the proposal is a massive headache and one they don’t want be it for a make or denial member of staff-

No I am not… although with this school that might actually be the case.

What I am saying is that that by and large this kind of request will be made by women in the vast majority of times. Therefore, whether or not a woman makes it, it is a gender issue.

[Suds]

Are you suggesting that you believe if a male teacher at the school wanted a part time job share to accommodate child care they would facilitate it?
I think the proposal is a massive headache and one they don’t want be it for a make or denial member of staff-

Obs OP can speak for himself, but I think post#26 still relates - women are disproportionately disadvantaged by child birth specifically and care giving generally (hence famale poverty in retirement).

[stuie-t]

Genuinely no aggression here towards yourself. Why would there be?

The responses here have caused me to reflect. Obviously I am biased. I still land on the fact that this situation is borne out of a fundamental sexist flaw in our employment legislation. When a situation would be easily accommodated, then some kind of negotiation should happen towards a workable solution. I am not saying that businesses should go bankrupt but if they cannot make mild accommodations to allow equality in opportunity then women, as a whole have no chance without significantly more sacrifice than the comparable man.

Your fixation that this issue is about sexism is, I think, unhelpful. In my own team, we have men requesting flexible working arrangements almost as frequently as the women (albeit for different reasons). 2 of the men i work with work 3 days a week, one to pursue another business interest, the other to care for an elderly relative. I myself had a flexible working arrangement pre-Covid that allowed me to work 7:30-4:00 instead of the usual 9:00-5:30 whilst my kids were still in nursery. My wife flexed her hours to work 9:30-6:00 so she did the morning drop offs and I did the afternoon collection. Generally at my company we are able to accommodate most reasonable requests but it certainly isn’t a given that it will be agreed to.


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